[Classic drama] User suggests in /r/MensRights that women should be better portrayed in video games. MR users disagree: "I don't interfere with your romcoms and soap operas, why must you interfere with my games about shooting aliens?" (np.reddit.com)
SubredditDrama
66 ups - 0 downs = 66 votes
508 comments submitted at 04:17:51 on Aug 17, 2014 by I_post_reddit_drama
>You're reading into incorrectly. It's not "fuck you get out of our hobby" it's "don't decide after 30 years that it's socially acceptable for you to play games now and start demanding everything change to cater to your needs"
>There's a world of difference.
Ah yes... of course.
I've been a gamer since kindergarten. What is this idiot on about
Too late, you should have made sure to prepare the cultural landscape of gaming to fit you before you were born. You only have yourself to blame.
Same. What the hell.
How dare we demand a couple games that aren't about a scruffy white dude.
But think of the scruffy white dudes! They'd be underrepresented and sad :'(
Yeah! And don't forget burly white dudes, too! I mean, where else can you see those two highly underrepresented demographics? Certainly not action movies and tv shows, or most mainstream anything! /s
And what about the surly AND scruffy white dudes with gravelly voices and overcoats?
With a troubled past, ranging from someone they cared about dying to them having to kill someone they don't care about and make them die.
There are actually quite a few games like that. But you're really not going to find them in the AAA action games so much.
I mean, the Last of Us was kind of about a scruffy white dude, but it also had a pretty significant presence with Ellie.
Interesting thing about the Last of Us was that it was mostly women in that game who were in power. The leader of the Fireflies (the biggest military/anti-government faction in that world) was led by a woman (a black woman), the biggest peaceful community in the game was governed by a woman (Joel's sister in law out in Utah I think it was) and the whole game is set into motion by Tess.
It was very diverse game (Gay characters, minorities, women in powerful roles) and I hope anyone who's campaigned for diversity in games bought it to support it. AND bought the DLC.
That's... Awesome. I didn't even realize it but after looking back on it, you're right.
The diversity stuff in games always annoys me because I don't really care if I have a female lead or a gay lead as long as it's a GOOD lead. I'd much rather have a good female lead (Tomb Raider), then a bad/boring male character (infamous)
Pretty much like movies, you have to get out of the big studios to do anything interesting.
He's saying people should obey the "NO GIRLZ ALLOWED!" sign that he put up decades ago.
Right? I started playing video games when I was 6, which considering how many teenagers use reddit is longer than plenty of r/gaming has even been alive.
I believe the logic runs like this:
I played video games.
I was considered a dork.
Therefore gamers were considered dorks.
You mainstreamers can't just join now that it's cool and have opinions!
Exactly! Why would I want more people interested in my hobby so they can play with me? Oh wait...
Gamers were considered nerds where I grew up. And being a nerd wasn't good in a small Midwestern town.
Oh yeah, definitely. Gaming for a long while was considered to be pretty fucking geeky. And not in the good way like it is now.
I think their (Those MRA's) argument is something like, "We've been putting up with bullying for simply being gamers for years---why is it only now a big deal when women are getting into it?"
It's a sad cycle, I think. There's too much bitterness and hurt feelings in that sub. I kind of feel sorry for them, to be honest.
> Gaming for a long while was considered to be pretty fucking geeky. And not in the good way like it is now.
Someone forgot to tell everyone in my life, including all the football players in my high school.
Like the other dude said, it varies from place to place I think. I don't know where you live or how old you are, but in my experience, it was very similar to what zolfe said. It wasn't considered a good thing at all.
Been gaming since Doom got popular. Chex Quest was the shit in elementary school among everyone.
Jesus, you're ancient (just kidding).
We all have different experiences, as I said. Long before gender in games became such a big talking point, I had always heard from other gamers about how they were shit on often for being into video games as well.
I don't know, maybe it was different in different places and times or maybe we are using a different definition of a "gamer"... When I was a kid, owning a game console was a sign of status, like, they used to cost a shitton, you know. And only the real cool kids had several different ones and a big TV to go with them, like we are talking the coolest guy in the class cool. Of course they had and did a lot of other cool shit too, so they weren't exclusively gamers, which is what a "nerd" sounds like.
Every fucking kid in my school had a Nintendo. That shit was mainstream. You were a dork if you had no friends, a Nintendo, and a room full of video game artifacts that you spent hundreds of dollars on and get real mad if anyone touched them. It wasn't the Nintendo that made you a dork, it was the crippling social hostility.
The only people that played video games in my town were the nerds and occasionally the band kids (who were often also nerds). Everyone else was an athlete (football, wrestling, or crosscountry) or a farm kid. Lots of underage drinking in my town as well. Like I said, small town Midwest.
Those smalltown Midwestern dorks aren't really the defining demographic of the gaming industry, are they?
What's happening here is that people who were socially ostracized and played video games have defined themselves as the core demographic of the gaming industry for the past three decades. And the rest of us who played games didn't really give a shit, because we had other things to define ourselves by than gaming.
Now that demographic, even though they aren't representative and never has been, dominates the conversation of what a gamer is and what games should be.
They weren't naturally posited in the center of the gaming universe. They stuck themselves there because all other gamers had better things to do with their time than making gaming a weird insular cult of socially-awkward turbo nerds.
While harshly worded, I agree with your point.
Even now, there's tons of people who buy consoles and play videogames and are not even remotely aware that this conversation about gender and the definition of a gamer is even happening.
That's pretty much the crux of the matter. I played video games my entire life and didn't figure out I was excluded from my own hobby, which I enjoyed socially with plenty of people, until the advent of the internet and big tournaments.
It's just pure bullshit. So what if I don't like grizzled space marine FPSs? I've owned every PlayStation, and plenty of consoles besides. I'm not a faux gamer girl now because a bunch of 17-year-old smelly little boys think so.
And that's why sexism in gaming pisses me off. I just want to play some goddamn video games, and some fucking jerks have to make it all about fake gamer girls and tit flair.
It's not a secret club, you goobers. Even if it was, you sure as shit don't get to appoint yourself the gatekeepers.
It's always funny when someone on mic wants to tell you that "girl gamers suck" and they sound about 15-19 years old. Meaning they either weren't born yet, or were just learning to walk, when my sister and I were busy fragging each other in GoldenEye.
Not to mention, at least in my experience, the "jocks" and whoever else (like me) will often stick to games like Madden, Fifa, Halo, Call of Duty, etc., which are all more main-stream games. You'd never see them playing WoW or whatever. And they'd never consider themselves "gamers" by any stretch of the imagination, even if they play Madden twelve hours a day, every day.
Interestingly, I think WoW is the most mainstream MMO there is. I've met quite a few "jocks" that had insanely high-level characters in that game.
Of course, everyone (or at least every guy) played games one way or another. My point is that actually "power gaming" was, and still is, pretty damn expensive. Try buying both the latest XBox and Playstation these days, it costs more than keeping up to date with fucking iPhones, ffs.
And, while society in general and kids in particular tend to have the weirdest dynamics, kids of well-off parents getting the low status of "nerd" for their expensive hobby is just, nope, can't possibly happen, at all, no way. Status just doesn't work like that.
So playing video games in itself isn't and has never been the reason for some guys to be shunned. It was never "socially unacceptable" for boys (but was to some extent for girls, I guess?). Those guys just see the false causality, they weren't considered "nerds" for being gamers, the rest of us weren't.
And, by the way, if they try to say that they are the real gamers unlike those filthy casual rich kids, then guess what, 99.9% of the gaming industry profits come from the filthy casuals under this definition.
I'm not denying that power gamers couldn't be unpopular. What I'm arguing is that they're not unpopular because they play games. It was the '90s dude, having a Mario lunchbox and backpack was about as mainstream as putting mayo on a ham sandwich.
They're unpopular because there's something else that makes them weird and undesirable to be around. Some dude could be just as intense and wacky about karate as a kid, and I bet he wouldn't have any friends either. You subsume yourself into a hobby to the exclusion of all other social activities, and you make yourself a social pariah.
I certainly figured that out when I was really intensely into Pokemon as a 11-year-old. Except I was probably 80 times less cool than dudes who were intensely into Pokemon, because at least they could hang out with each other. Guess who they didn't hang out with? Little awkward girls that they decided were interlopers into their precious sacred hobby.
We are in a furious agreement with each other, it seems!
Like, I brought up "power gaming" to demonstrate that the trend goes the other way actually.
Oh good. I figured we were agreeing, but I kept typing just to be sure.
Now kiss.
>implying video games are the reason he was socially unacceptable in high school
Why do people from GirlGamers brigade so consistently and so frequently? I ask because that's what you and most of the other posters in this particular thread are doing.
Edit: look at how both people who replied to me replied almost immediately and were upvoted to +5 almost immediately.
Brigading? Looks to me the sensible people are still being downvoted in that thread.
I didn't vote on anything in that thread. Look, but don't touch.
Also I'm pretty sure once posts are a certain age they're archived and you can't vote on them.
You came from GirlGamers to here. And I don't mean that you voted. I mean that you came in this subreddit specifically to defend your ideology, and that isn't really what this subreddit is about.
No? I browse subreddit drama pretty regularly. Who knew I could subscribe to more than 1 subreddit.
Because no one has ever been a subscriber of multiple subreddits until this moment.
I didn't really say that either. I just said every time there's a GirlGamers post here, a bunch of GirlGamers users turn up and upvote a lot of stuff and comment. I'm not saying it's unique to them, I'm not saying it's unusual. I was asking why and how it happens. If the explanation is as simple as "there's a big subscriber overlap" - that works for me.
>You came from GirlGamers to here
No, people can be subscribed to both /r/subredditdrama and /r/girlgamers. I highly doubt there's a meta post in /r/girlgamers pointing to this thread about how they need to defend their ideology.
If someone is browsing reddit subscribed to this subreddit, they're going to see this post. If they're a female gamer, they're probably going to want to discuss it, since it's probably important to them. Just because you hold an opinion that people disagree with doesn't mean everyone is out to get you, it just means you have an unpopular viewpoint.
I'm playing Fallout: New Vegas right now as a lady-person (what are they called again? ), which I usually do if it's an option because gaming is my proxy fantasy world and I like to either make my character look like an exaggerated version of myself, or just completely ridiculous. Anyway, I've played through it with a boyfriend as a male and other than gender pronouns and the flip of the black widow/forget the other one perk, it's the same. Same when I played as a female dark elf in Skyrim and a skinhead, pirate grandma in Saints Row 4.
Most games would be unaffected if they had these kinds of character creation templates. You can choose anything you want, from a skimpily clad female, to a regular woman, to a blue man wearing nothing but daisy dukes and a banana and it DOESN'T MATTER.
I mean, that's just the easy part to gender neutralize. Then you have to talk about all of the NPC's...
I think this is the reason why I love Dragon Age so much. The gender dictates who you can romance (including a few same sex options) and a few if the NPCs might be a bit misogynist when confronted with a female Warden, but that's it.
Exactly. In Skyrim my elf was able to marry another woman and fill their beautiful house with cheese from around the world.
Wait, you can get married in Skyrim? I should have worn the Amulet of Mara instead of just stashing it in my house, dammit, I had no idea! I've played every possible quest, and I never knew you could get married...
Dude, yeah! It's a quest you can complete. It's been a couple years so I forget the detAils, but I remember my wedding being glitchy as fuck. Like, NPCs were floating around and shit.
I always worry a dragon will eat my wife!
I meant to say bandana, but I think I'll just leave it.
I agree with you 100%, but just want to jump onto your argument! Skyrim and Fallout are great examples of why games that aren't totally story-based should always give you the ability to play as any gender or race. But often I end up finding my roleplaying experience enhanced because of the particular character I end up playing, in a way that makes me think about how more mainstream games could benefit from more diversity.
Like, my FemShep is a woman of mixed race (tried to think about what the Earthborn population would be like), and the fact that she was one of the only black characters in power in the game was something I noticed. I felt like I had a really close relationship with Anderson, and imagined their mentor/mentee relationship as something that went beyond just their professional roles, in that he was also a role model for her. I wondered about how she would relate to aliens differently perhaps, since she was part of a population that was oppressed on Earth. It was one factor in shaping my general decisions for her, like the fact that she would probably support the Krogans and their right to be a free state.
Anyway, the freedom of this kind of roleplay is why character creation that's open is so great--I don't really want a storyline about any of the things I mentioned above, they just colored my experience of the game in a way that made it different than it would have been if I had played as a white Shepard, or a male Shepard, etc. My point, I guess, is that I think people who play RPGs are much more open to diversity in games, because of how we've already enjoyed it as part of our own experiences. And I hope my example shows that even in the same game world, the person the protagonist is matters.
What confuses me about this "debate" is the fact that there are a lot of women (and men) who have a problem with how women are represented in games. If a lot of people don't like something, there is an issue there whether you care about it or not. Seems pretty simple?
And yet the main argument against improving the representation of women in videogames is "there isn't actually a problem, because I checked and I'm a man so I know."
That is not the counterargument being given.
>That being said unless gender is actually informing a character's story it doesn't really matter what you play as.
"there is not actually a problem."
Because that is in no way more nuanced then "because im a man and say so"...
It's almost like I was exaggerating for humour or something.
But generally, it's not that different is it. "it doesn't really matter what you play as" is easy to say when 90% of games are played as a character quite like you.
And it still erases the complaints magically without addressing their point at all.
Same old, same old: "Women don't exist in the gaming community. Oh, they do? Well they're only playing cell phone games. Oh wait, they're at our conventions and expos? Attention whores, I bet they don't even play and they're fake gamer girls."
The gaming presence on reddit can really be toxic and vicious about more people coming into an ever growing demography. Why? Why is it so insulting to them to make gaming more inclusive to everyone?
By the way they react to it you'd think people were threatening to kill their puppies.
Gamers are afraid that this new demographic of people are going to ruin their favorite thing with an emphasis on diversity for diversity's sake. The question shouldn't be "Why isn't there a girl in this current existing IP?", it should be "Why aren't new IPs being made that are designed from beginning to end with a female protagonist being made?"
>The question shouldn't be "Why isn't there a girl in this current existing IP?", it should be "Why aren't new IPs being made that are designed from beginning to end with a female protagonist being made?"
I think this is a great point to bring up.
>Next thing you'll be telling me that straight people who watch "Queer as Folk" are entitled to equal representation.
Oh my, that's the worst analogy I've ever read.
A parking garage is like the gas ovens of Dachau; they're both made of concrete.
Now that's an analogy that fails on every conceivable level.
Is WTC Building 7 an analogy that fails on every level?
guys, we've finally cracked it, 9/11 was done by the nazis to kill the jewish bankers living inside. SOMEBODY GET /R/CONSPIRACY ON THE LINE ASAP
Psh, everyone knows that the holographic, nano-thermite planes were flown by Princess Diana to end Sadam Hussain and Gadafi's secret affair so that Obama could spread communist Atheo-Islam to Canada. It all came apart when Bill Clinton screwed up FEMA death camps after Katrina and when John Kerry was revealled to have lead the attack on the embassy in Bengahzi.
Wake up sheeple.
THE ILERMANATIY
/r/ilerminaty
Every bit of reasoning he used in there deserves consideration, frankly.
Edit: Apparently I wasn't clear; I meant "deserves consideration for 'worst analogy I've ever read'".
Edit2: I guess this still hasn't gotten across; I was agreeing with /u/TheLadyEve, NOT with the OP. My fault for using a conversational tone, I forgot how rarely tonal inference transfers through text.
haha good one, "reasoning"
That's the joke; I'm sorry that was unclear.
Because a single television show catering to a core demographic is precisely the same as an entire media platform catering to a single demographic, especially when that demographic makes up only a slim majority of the audience.
I'm not sure where I said that at all...
To be clear, my post was meant to be "Every bit of reasoning he used in there deserves consideration for 'worst analogy I've ever read', frankly." The entirety of the original linked OP's argument was a textbook example of affirming the consequent, a logical fallacy that makes a truth claim on cause based on a perceived effect, despite the fact that any number of possibilities COULD have been the cause. In other words, while the claim "when it rains, I wear a jacket; it's raining; I'll wear a jacket" works and is a valid argument, the opposite claim "when it rains, I wear a jacket; I'm wearing a jacket; it must be raining" is in-valid, as there could be multiple other reasons for wearing it.
Just so I'm absolutely clear here; I AGREE with /u/TheLadyEve, and was commenting to the effect that the entire argument used to diminish female gamers was crap.
The casual/hardcore gamer debate is ridiculous. Oh you only play angry birds. That's not gaming. If people want to embark down that Road there will always be a more hardcore gaming. Oh you play titanfall? Casual. If you don't play 20 games of league a day your a casual plebian.
You play League? Pssh, only casuals play League. Come back when your DOTA MMR is above 6000.
Get fucked casual carl. Come back when you're a director in an EVE online alliance of at least 2k people.
Suck a dick fuckface. EVE's not gaming, it's a job. REAL gamers only play indie games.
Its the CIRCLE OF SHITTALKING!!!!!!
And it depresses us AAAALLLLLL
Indie games? You mean like Minecraft? God! That game is for casuals! You gotta play real games, like Call of Duty!
pfft Look at these losers, playing games made after 2000. The only real gaming ended with the N64.
Fucking casuals. The third dimension is just a crutch for gamers who suck. The last real game ever made was Mega Man 4.
CSGO, iron sight-needing plebeian.
the Mittani sends his regards
/r/dotamasterrace
On the whole casual gamer thing
> So while I am all for gamer girls I think it is more likely a large piece of the 40% stat are middle age women playing words-with-friends rather than DOTA.
This come up in just about every thread where someone brings up the "40% of gamers are women stat"
It's like they can't accept that a woman could enjoy games as much as them
That's why they twist it into "it doesn't count as a game unless it's something I'd play".
Plus I've never seen a man playing Words With Friends or Candy Crush am I right
[deleted]
You must have just missed the "fe-"
^^I ^^play ^^them ^^too
There is an important difference between mobile gaming (dominated by women iirc) and console/pc gaming (dominated by men iirc) tho. I've seen the 40% statistic thrown around quite a bit in an attempt to argue "women make up 40% of gamers so why don't more AAA games cater to women?".
But then you get into people who say "Well The Sims doesn't count" and "Well Just Dance doesn't count" even though those are on consoles/pc.
Those people do exist. I'm not denying it. Gaming is just as bad as any other hobby in terms of the hardcore/casual dynamic. I'm just stating that the 40% statistic is often used in bad faith.
because counting Farmville is the only way to arrive at the 40% stat.
the only real video game is dwarf fortress, anything else is for scrubs
Even within DF I'm a filthy casual...I disable aquifers...
FUCK YOU NOOB
I can't even get a fortress past year 2 in ideal conditions.
DF is for noobcasuals, Aurora is where it's at.
As much as I disagree with their core point, you're misrepresenting what they're saying. The angry birds stuff is said in response to the "x% of gamers are women" stats that get thrown around.
Because when a majority of that half are playing games like angry birds, the stat is pretty irrelevant when you're talking about games like League of Legends. Far fewer women play these competitive games compared to men.
Where is there information that, say, the 40% of Xbox subscribers who are female just play casual games like Angry Birds? If you want an example of a game that's actually widely tilted toward female players, the best one would probably be something like MarioKart.
In Mario Kart, when you're online it actually shows your little Mii in the lobby. I'd say fewer than 20% of all the Miis I see are female.
That's because a lot of women don't pick female miis. Because they get sick of the fucking harassment from douchebags who don't want women in their he-man woman hater's club.
I usually don't reveal my gender when I'm gaming, not because I'm afraid of harassment but because while playing I like to identify with a male POV somehow. It's like a way to leep my real and virtual identities separated. I'm sure there are plenty of women in the gaming world who go disguised as men.
I play as female characters in the Elder Scrolls despite being male for some reason. I like having the variety. Except my hulky blond Nord dude, whose name is Agatha.
Well firstly there's no chat or communication system in Mario Kart besides the inbuilt messages of things like "That was fun!". Secondly, these Miis also more often than not have names rather than tags.
I seriously doubt there's a large amount of women who make male characters then make up a name like "Paul" just to avoid the chance of someone possibly spamming "Hello!" at them when they join the lobby.
Besides, if it was as "widely tilted" towards female players as he claims, surely it'd be the men hiding behind female avatars?
Hi I'm Dave! - a mario kart playing woman
> I seriously doubt there's a large amount of women who make male characters then make up a name like "Paul" just to avoid the chance of someone possibly spamming "Hello!" at them when they join the lobby.
Or, it's a habit because that kind of shit happens to them a lot in gaming outside of on the Wii
>Besides, if it was as "widely tilted" towards female players as he claims, surely it'd be the men hiding behind female avatars?
...no?
Your Mii is across all games. Not just MarioKart.
Are you being willfully ignorant here?
I feel like you're the one being needlessly contrary here, and it's clear from both your posts that you haven't actually played Mario Kart online.
I don't actually play Mario Kart so I don't have any anecdotal evidence, I just remember reading some article that was about how Nintendo has a monopoly on female fans, through Mario Kart in particular. I'm trying to find it on Google but I don't think I have specific enough search terms.
I'd definitely agree with that from my experience, Mario Kart is one of the few games my girlfriend enjoys playing with me, but I still think the large majority of players are male.
That being said, I do think women are under represented in video games, I just don't think they're as under represented as the 40% stat has you believe.
>Because when a majority of that half are playing games like angry birds, the stat is pretty irrelevant when you're talking about games like League of Legends. Far fewer women play these competitive games compared to men.
This is really important. No, I'm not justifying female characters treatment in some games-- I'm just saying that that stat is misused in these discussions. Consider the recent drama regarding the new Assassins Creed: that "40% of gamers" talking point is uninmportant in these discussions when most of the people in that 40% aren't going to be buying those games in the first place.
Sometimes I hate when gender politics is brought into video games, because I find a lot of people who take part in these discussions have very little knowledge regarding the games they speak of. Like, with Assassins Creed, I found it really surprising how many people outraged with Ubisoft were unaware that they had a black woman as the main protagonist of one of the AC titles.
28% of console gamers are women.
Except there's a pretty distinct difference between casual gamers and gamers in terms of market interest, spending, and every other thing that matters to the major gaming companies.
The thing is even if the percentages are small for hardcore female gamers the numbers are still significant enough for developers to care. They have an even bigger incentive to make them more accessible to women and all demographics for that matter. Even if only 10% of wow players are women that is still a lot of customers.
No game out there is inaccessible to anyone.
I never said inaccessible. I said devolepers have reasons to make them more accessible.
Accessible how? I'm not a black dude, but when I play Prototype 2 I'm not hung up on the fact that Heller doesn't have my skin color. I'm thinking 'I have tentacle swords for arms and I'm sprinting up skyscrapers and I'm a fucking badass'. Why does the protagonist of a fantasy world have to share your plumbing / melanin content for you to identify with them?
No shit you don't, because Prototype 2 is just a very small break from the 90% of games you play which do feature white male protagonists just like you. If you were a black dude, I think you would appreciate being able to play as someone like yourself far more.
I'm not white, but it's telling that you'd jump to that conclusion. Do you identify with Heller because he's black, or because he's an interesting character in an interesting world?
If you only identify with a character based on skin color, you have some seriously messed up racial insecurities that you should probably deal with.
As a red head, it pisses me off how underrepresented we are. When was the last time we had a redheaded protagonist?
Fuck the video game industry. It is full of assholes.
Lady Shepard is a red head. Pretty much every single Tales of game has red heads.
You implied they are by saying they can be made more accessible. I dont know any game that isnt accessible already.
Wut. Accessibility is not a binary system between inaccessible and more accessible.
> the numbers are still significant enough for developers to care
obviously not.
that's what you're complaining about. that they don't care enough.
wanna guess why they don't write games with furry POC protagonists killing republican senators for slut shaming? because they did the market research and concluded it's not worth it! there aren't enough SJW gamers who would buy that crap.
Dude tone down the vitriolic rhetoric and people might actually engage you in a reasonable discussion
> The thing is even if the percentages are small for hardcore female gamers the numbers are still significant enough for developers to care.
No it isn't. There is no incentive for developers to cater to the small minority of gamers and potentially alienate portions of the larger consumer base when they can simply cater to the majority and force the minority to either deal with it or play nothing. By catering to the majority they profit off of the minority anyway. That might suck for female gamers, but it's just business.
Whenever this debate comes up nobody ever addresses why developers should care. Are women underrepresented in video gaming? Sure. But the video game industry is just that: an industry. And that industry is never going to jeopardize its profits just because a relatively small number of people complain every once in awhile.
If you actually want change work to get more women in the industry, instead of complaining that the companies should make that change for you. Because you're kind of deluded if you think that's going to happen.
Having more women and minorities in games is not going to alienate the base. It is not like people play soul caliber just because the characters are oversexulized. They play it for the gameplay. So yea it is pretty easy to be inclusive with out alienating your base.
>Having more women and minorities in games is not going to alienate the base.
Games with female protagonists sell worse than those with male protagonists. This is an established trend, and fairly obvious.
>It is not like people play soul caliber just because the characters are oversexulized. They play it for the gameplay.
The entire argument is that women care about their representation in video games and that they would especially like to play games that feature them. Thing is, it works in the same way for male gamers, who also want to play games that have characters depicting them, and as a result may very well pass up a game with a female protagonist for one featuring a male, because they have options. Female gamers largely do not, so they are "forced" to buy games with male protagonists.
Remember when Portal alienated male gamers? That totally sucked.
A lot of people didn't even know you played as a girl. That's a perfect example of what the representation issue should be. People don't complain that Samus is a girl, because it's a GOOD GAME with a female lead. Most games with female protagonist are terrible like X-Blades, Heavenly Sword, Beyond: Two Souls, BulletWitch, and Remember Me. Most gamers don't CARE if we have to play as a girl as long as the actual game is good.
You mean the game that was made by one of the most popular and successful video game developers of all time? The one where the protagonist never speaks to my knowledge, and her being female is barely mentioned or seen? That one game, that doesn't change the fact that video games with female protagonists sell worse?
Is that the game you mean?
So having a female proragonist in some games isn't going to alienate anyone is my point.
Funny how you get downvoted for telling people who want things to change need to get off their ass and change them themselves.
So everyone has to make their own games if they don't like the games that they are being made?
Does the notion of "criticism" mean anything to you?
Everyone who makes this argument has no idea how much casual and indie games make, dollar-for-dollar.
Companies go broke making a single AAA game that fails to be an overwhelming commercial success. Even a shitty casual game can make back its investment.
People don't make eighteen thousand tower defense knockoffs because it doesn't make them money.
Hi, can you remove the personal attack in your final sentence please? I'll reapprove the post once it's gone.
Sorry, it's gone.
Good stuff, cheers!
There's nothing better than an argument about which is or is not the correct way to waste time
>The problem is, I don't see why women should be required to be able to lift that much weight. On the one hand, most firefighting teams will be composed of men AND women. In some fires, no one needs to be rescued. In others, the house is too hot to enter. In the instances where someone must be rescued, what is stopping them from sending in one or more of the male members? The woman doesn't have to be sent in, and there are plenty of jobs to do that don't require those heavy lifting capabilities. The test should be adjusted for that.
There were some general mra/feminism drama in there too. This doesn't seem like such a good idea though. 😐
Seems dangerous as hell.
And of course someone thinks scantily-clad women somehow = barely-dressed beefcakes. They're so out of touch with reality.
I think it's the lack of variety in female videogame characters that gets kind of annoying. Looking at the [most iconic video game characters] (http://emertainmentmonthly.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/super-smash-bros.jpg), there are definitely a few [beefcakes] (http://www.smashbros.com/wii/enus/characters/images/hidden05/hidden05.jpg) in there, but there are also [fat] (http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/cb20120504071048/nintendo/en/images/e/ed/MTOMario.png) guys, [old] (http://ayay.co.uk/backgrounds/actionrpggames/metalgearsolid4/old-snake-with-tashe.jpg) guys, [skinny] (http://images.wikia.com/joelsevere/images/archive/2/28/20100813145613!Pokemon_Trainer.png) guys, [effeminate] (http://www.cosplaycostumesuk.co.uk/images/76/13828910605.jpg) guys, [short] (http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/cb20080530203124/megaman/images/d/d7/MegamanMMPU.jpg) guys, [slender hourglass] (http://www.cubed3.com/media/2005/October/spydarlee/mariotennispower11.jpg) ladies, [slender hourglass] (http://stopbeingaloser.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/femaile-video-gamer.jpg) ladies, [slender hourglass] (http://studiesofamerica.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/lara-croft.jpg) ladies, [slender hourglass] (http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/cb20121213232555/mk_/images/a/a6/Sonya-blade.png) ladies, [slender hourglass] (http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/cb20121213232555/mk_/images/a/a6/Sonya-blade.png) ladies...
There's [non-conventionally attractive female videogame characters] (http://media.pcgamer.com/files/2012/07/Ellie.jpg) (although they're much harder to find than non-attractive male characters and people do their darnedest to [make] (http://starsmedia.ign.com/stars/image/object/963/963903/icenanakeyartboxart160w.jpg) them [sexy] (http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs41/f/2009/011/7/c/NanafromIceclimberpixelbyTorke.jpg) anyway!) and there's the beefcakes, sure. But the guys have a LOT more variety and it's much more acceptable for them to not be hot. The men in Mario look like [this] (http://img.saraivaconteudo.com.br/Clipart/images/Wario,Waluigi,Luigi%20e%20Mario%20%20Foto-Nintendo-Div.jpg), the women look like [this] (http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/cb20130314191048/fantendo/images/a/ac/Peach,DaisyandRosalina.png). Even in a comptetly sexless game series like Sonic, the female characters have to wear clothes to conceal their... [bat boobs?] (http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/cb20120806104212/sonicwiki/de/images/a/a1/RareSEGARougetheBat_Lrg.png) (Or of you were ever a fan of the Sonic comic as a kid so you could feast your eyes on the sexy.... [rabbit cleavage] (http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/cb20111211180545/sonic/images/5/5b/BunnierabbotD_Coolette.jpg) and... hawt... [squirrel curves?] (http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/cb20111203200442/sonic/images/d/d2/RecentSally.jpg) I'm not the only one who thinks this is weird, right?)
Not saying we should ban zero-suit Samus or anything, but a bit more variation would be nice. Especially when the kid-friendly-as-you-can-get Sonic series gives any female character over 12 cleavage even if they're a fucking bat. [Noseriouslywhatisthisshit?!] (http://media2.theranking.com/card/916309/image/d9d6e1bb9c2214e6d38b3c42794ef051/resize_image.jpg)
Yeah I definitely agree. There are very few lady characters who aren't cheesecake. Not that I mind cheesecake, but it just gets so tiring having the same thing over and over and over and over...
Besides Mario, what fat male characters exist? I feel like it's literally just Mario. With that point, your point kinda falls apart. For most people, conventionally attractive is simply not fat.
How about this guy, or this guy, or maybe this guy? And those are just from two games.
To be fair, the 2nd guy has muscles on muscles. I wish my calves looked 1/4th of that size. But the other two are undoubtedly fat. I've never seen them tho. Is that first one a Saint's Row character?
The first two are Street Fighter characters and the third is from Tekken.
In that first image you linked, there's the female ice climber who is short and pudgy, jigglypuff who is literally spherical, Sheik who is dressed masculine, two young girls with the figures of young children, and Peach who wears a modest dress that doesn't show any figure. Peach I guess is debatable because she has the slender figure in 3D world, but that game also shows Mario as muscular and atheltic, not fat as you describe.
I can only spot two slender hourglass ladies. I can actually see more "beefcake" guys than slender hourglass women in an image that you yourself called the most iconic video game characters.
Lol jigglypuff isn't a girl cause she's pink
They're 75% female. It's probably a girl.
Before I just googled it there I thought they were all female though, and I was wrong.
The first four images with "slender hourglass ladies" are all slender hourglass ladies.
The other Sonic characters are also made to be attractive, slender, with prominent hips, thighs and breasts.
Jigglypuff is a species with both male and female members (that look identical).
How is Link effeminate lmao he has a fairy for a best friend but that's about it
Jim Sterling did an incredible video on how big muscly men in vidya games aren't the same as well equipped females, and it's a vid that should be standard viewing if anyone wants to join the Gender in Video Game debate.
Here was another good video of his
http://youtu.be/7wnTunPrQJo
This video is not incredible. The clips he shows where he talks about women getting objectified is "Dead or Alive: Xtreme Beach Volleyball 2." It's a fan service-y game and no one buys it for rich story or deep characters. It would be like me going to see magic mike and complain that the movie industry has a male objectification problem.
In a similar discussion someone linked these two pages about how women are portrayed in games/comics.
http://eschergirls.tumblr.com
http://thehawkeyeinitiative.com
Most of the time I am more entertained by the threads made in SRD than the actual threads in question. You guys and gals are a hilarious and witty bunch. :)
Just wanted to take a moment for the community. Now back to our regular schedule.
Are... men portrayed poorly in stereotypical female-aimed media? If so, I sure haven't noticed. Hell, if anything, I feel like women are portrayed worse than men in media aimed at women.
SnapShot
(mirror | open source | create your own snapshots)
I just love that people have this ridiculous arguments about all this complicated stuff deep in the bowels of the reddit comments section as if that's really ever going to fix anything.
changing the world, one angry comment and downvote at a time.
Welcome to SRD. Grab a beer. Don't cost nothing.
Are you so desperate for drama, gender wars drama in particular, that you really reposted this a year after it happened? Come on OP.
It used to bother me when you and some regular others would always be in here defending mensrights talking points whenever drama was posted about them, now I realize you're just that in house extra dollop of butter that lines my coronaries.
Drama is drama even if it's a year old, posting it here creates new drama for you (us) to breathe life into.
Oh, and Sarkeesian made highly elucidated commentary on gender roles in video games and the backlash against her is only indicative of how fearful men are of women breaking into traditional male dominated activities and she did nothing wrong.
I prefer gaming with women as they are a mature breath of fresh air in a crusty socked bitter basement that is the gaming community. Having women better represented in video games forces companies to reinvent what they define quality as, and it serves to revolutionize the idea that while video games are based in a fantasy world, they can be more realistic in how they portray women. Maybe by looking at how women are viewed, we then can work together using those same reasoning skills and critical analysis to look at how men are portrayed. Improving the life of disadvantaged women can and does benefit men, it's in all of our interests to bring up all of those less fortunate then ourselves.
At least women gamers don't tell me how often they fuck my mom and that I'm gay.
> I prefer gaming with women as they are a mature breath of fresh air in a crusty socked bitter basement that is the gaming community.
Women who play video games: Mature, intelligent human beings who are fun to be around.
Men who play video games: Socially retarded neckbeards.
Seriously, from the other times you've popped up on SRD (for example you classic self-loathing male feminist with strange ideas, but that doesn't mean SRD has to upvote this shit.
Don't pretend you're here for the drama when you're just here for ideological reasons.
Edit: Love how my score plummeted around noon, is that when SJWs wake up?
My ideological reasons go against others who hold opposite ideological reasons, this spurns more drama.
This is good for SRD.
I'm just here for downvotes and laughs :D
[deleted]
On a personal level I do wish opposing factions and sides weren't so intent on proving their points or pushing them and took the time to understand the roots of others frustrations. A little bit of empathy and proper listening can go a long way and can lead to greater understanding, but it isn't understanding most want in these situations.
To be fair I don't comment much outside of my little corner, as I'm in agreement, I can only have the same argument once to see how it's going to play out the next infinite times and it does get tiring and boring. I don't hate anyone per se, being a man and a feminist who does volunteer at multiple places that support both women and men, I prefer to live my life centered around love and support rather than hatred and negativity. I do dislike a lot of arguments, ideas, and actions, but even with those people, they have hopes and dreams and fears, parents and families who love them, and are entitled to find happiness in their own way and I respect that.
For your own personal happiness, may I suggest following the instructions on this subs wiki to exclude drama you're not a fan of? I do this with RES on the rest of reddit along with using gold to exclude multiple subreddits, and it has greatly increased my satisfaction on this website. I've been here three years and the opposing sides have only dug their feet in more, moderates are pushed away and probably off site.
http://www.reddit.com/r/SubredditDrama/wiki/tags#wikiresfiltering
> I prefer to live my life centered around love and support rather than hatred and negativity.
...
>I'm just here for downvotes and laughs :D
I've seen you making enough drama here on SRD itself to say otherwise.
He's the perfect caricature of the stereotypical man-hating "ally" with self-esteem issues.
Although, I'd love to see the drama that would occur if he actually tries to debate with an MRA.
That seems like a rather unnecessarily personal attack.What makes you say I have self esteem issues or that I hate men? I volunteer for multiple organizations that help men. I volunteer as a big brother, as men can't be big sisters and women can't be big brothers. Most of my palliative and senior volunteering positions are primarily with men.
I've debated with the biggest guns out there, the debates go nowhere because while many within the feminist community do acknowledge that men face issues, there seems to be none of this balance from opposite sides. But if you're still interested, there are tons of debates I had back before I devoted my time to modding if you care to look for them. I try to tone down how much of a drama magnet I am because it eventually comes back to others associated with me, which isn't fair to them.
http://www.reddit.com/r/SubredditDrama/comments/1gy7mz/inrcreepypmsunosefetishexplainswhy_feminism/
http://www.reddit.com/r/SubredditDrama/comments/27kc3w/isdickagenderedslurrcreepypmsdebates_with/
http://www.reddit.com/r/SubredditDrama/comments/wef4q/slapfightinrcreepypmsoverwhether_its/
http://www.reddit.com/r/SubredditDrama/comments/wrv5r/hueyprieststepsintormensrightsandmoderatesa/c5g2srh
http://np.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/sy2np/equalistvsfeminist/c4hygnu
In that case, I apologize for the personal attack, as the only posts that I've seen from you while on SRD so far have been filled with absolute disgust and hatred for anything even remotely resembling men's rights. I do admire the feminist movement for what it's accomplished, and I actually try and make distinctions between actual feminists and the radical "SJW" crowd. My only problem lies with the dismissive attitude that many people on this subreddit have with MRAs, to the point where even the logical, reasonable ones are shunned and booed without anybody paying attention to them, especially if there's any form of criticism of feminism involved (for example, the incredibly outdated Duluth model, or the Tender Years Doctrine).
Also, I've noticed that in some of the examples that you listed, you said things like this: >I'm not an egalitarian, when it comes to equality I only care about it in regards to women's rights. I'm the only mod here who is a feminist.
and these:
>No. I am not interested in sexual equality, or I am, but only from the perspective of women's rights. Women around the world face disproportionately more rights issues than men ever could. I am a feminist, not an egalitarian. When women around the world achieve equal rights, then I will become a humanist. I don't foresee that happening in my lifetime. I am genuinely interested in destroying the patriarchy and installing a matriarchal society.
>I get where you, wendy, and others coming from, but I'm too stubborn to back down. Just how I would never list no misandry in the sidebar a rule, because I don't believe in it, to piss off my detractors, and as a way to easy out trolls and people who want to fight over it.
So do you actually care about equality from an objective point of view, or do you only care about the feminist side? Some of the stuff you post is so extreme that even /u/TAKEitTOrCIRCLEJERK disagrees with you. Hell, even your own subreddit, of all places, disagrees with you. A lot of your posts seem incredibly biased and hypocritical. Have you tried dialing back your extreme worldview even a little? Being able to handle criticism and respond in a logical manner is a good thing, and there's no shame in admitting fault, both in yourself and in any ideology that you represent.
One of the greatest things mensrights does to push people away, especially moderates, is to equate that being anti mra equals anti men. It's reductionist to the extreme. There are many non feminists who also hate mras, they don't hate men. Men's rights does more to set back views on mens suffering than feminism ever could.
Logical and moderate mras are in the minority and shunned because of the group they identify with. To date, MRAs do no volunteer work to address the problems they complain or argue about. I'd say if you're concerned with issues men face, you're better to volunteer as a big brother, in senior care, as a mentor or in a soup kitchen.
When the mras most prominent website are sending out fake allegations about a woman who is the director of a city in canadas only sexual assault center that has a support group for men to, and having a contest for who can concoct the worst one to win a tshirt , well it's only logical people aren't going to want to listen to you and will dismiss you.
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/01/02/mens-rights-activists-call-for-rape-accuse-a-thon-to-smear-sex-assault-victims-advocate/
Not to mention the whole occidental college thing. The issues men's rights attaches themselves to do them a disservice. I feel for men who really suffering, but joining in with mras thinking your changing anything will only frustrate you.
As for tittcj, while he's a nice guy, he's not the sole arbiter of what is reasonable in gender politics, even if he is more moderate than most. I care about equality in the real world and in my subreddit from an objective standpoint, on the rest of reddit there is an imbalance, and I stand by my comments in relation to how I feel about reddit. I don't believe in misandry, look at my gilded comments for an explanation why. Some people on the subreddit are going to disagree with me, some feminists probably disagree with me. I am a radical feminist, so I will come off extreme.
I accept your apology. In regards to accepting faults and responsibility, I'm not above it and feminism isn't perfect or the people who identify with it. That's why it's changing and evolving. I wish this sense of responsibility and admitting to faults, some self reflection and awareness was present within the mras movement. Men deserve better than the mras movement, when a moderate d one comes about message me and ill join, and try not to be so extreme :)
Am I some kind of feminazi or something to you?
[deleted]
Oooh, bad move. "Wasn't very good" would have been just a shitty opinion, but tacking on "by all accounts" was a hilarious overreach.
Game Developers Conference:
> The Ambassador Award honors an individual or individuals who have helped the game industry advance to a better place, either through facilitating a better game community from within, or by reaching outside the industry to be an advocate for video games and help further our art.
> 14th annual Game Developers Choice Awards (2014)
> Anita Sarkeesian
Boston Globe Arts section: > So far, she appears to have put the money to good use. The videos, produced in a nightly news style with plenty of clips from the games being discussed, are quite well done and benefit from the high production values her Kickstarter windfall allowed her to pursue.
IGN:
> alarming in its clarity ... a thorough examination ... Feminist Frequency will continue to ask more difficult questions and raise further uncomfortable issues, but it’s doing so in an attempt to raise awareness and, ultimately, make gaming a better place. It’s working to be a force for good in the gaming community
Jezebel:
> Anita Sarkeesian’s New Tropes Vs. Women Series is Awesome
Alyssa Rosenberg:
> It’s Great ... it’s terrific.
All accounts, tho. All accounts.
^^^that ^^^you ^^^agree ^^^with
Hey-- drama is drama
Someone posted the link in /r/facepalm yesterday after the commenter from the link was talking about it in a post.
Thanks for the context. Still question the desperation.
I like old drama. It tends to be more pure.
I like it because voting is already closed on it. Keeps it preserved. Also makes it easer to spot popcorn pissers.
I like old drama. It's just as juicy as new drama and you can't popcorn piss. Not every single goddamn post on this site is an attack on you.
I never said it was.
Drama ages like fine wine.
Funny. One had the impression from the other thread about that girl indie dev that the gaming community was composed of only teenage boys, according to SRD. Now it seems that it is a diverse group where at least 40% of them are women.
Funny that.