Israel warns people about impending airstrike. "So nice of them! Flyers cancel out the death of innocent people right?" 42 child comments in /r/worldnews (np.reddit.com)
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92 comments submitted at 15:10:29 on Jul 9, 2014 by duckvimes_
Not that I'm trying to end up on SRDD, but... that's what happens when terrorists are using your home to protect them--you lose your home. I'm not saying it's fair, but that's just how it works.
That's very easy for someone living in the suburbs in the West to say.
It's very easy for anyone to say.
If terrorists set up a rocket launch site in your house, then your house becomes a target.
It sucks for the home owner, but what else are the Israelis supposed to do? They cannot just ignore it, and they cannot try to storm the house; that gives the terrorists time to leave with their equipment.
>but what else are the Israelis supposed to do?
Not occupy palestinian land.
Yeah those Israeli's occupying Palestinian land by willingly giving Palestinians land for nothing in return in 2005. Yeah fuck them. Israel wants peace, Palestine wants peace. Hamas wants war. Hamas has to be removed before there is peace.
Giving back land you stole isn't praiseworthy.
Well get the fuck over it, it happened. The Palestinians were promised that land and so were the Israeli's and they were both thrown in there and it's been a shitfest ever since. There's no changing the past. The only solution that can come from you whining about DURR STOLEN LAND is to forcibly expel the Israeli's (or Palestinians, depending on your perspective) from there and just overnight turn it into Palestine. This isn't happening in any universe.
They will have to live together, likely in a two-state system. That's just the truth of the situation. It's an unfortunate solution but it's the only one fair to everyone involved. The only way this peaceful resolution can be achieved however is for violent extremists like Hamas who are intentionally using elementary schools and hospitals as rocket sites is to cease to exist.
Israel gave Gaza and the West Bank to the Palestinians because Israel wants peace and knows peace comes from a two-state system. If Israel wanted to get "rid" of Palestine or remove it or whatever other conspiracy you want to throw our way they wouldn't have given the Gaza Strip in '05 and the West Bank in '08 for literally nothing in return. Israel hoped giving this land would bring peace, long enough for something more permanent to pass, but that just wouldn't pass. What was once more or less peaceful land has become a breeding ground for terrorism and violence and aggression ever since Israel gave them that freedom, and it's unfortunate. They need to go in there, remove Hamas, and get the fucking UN or something involved and broker a deal to partition the country fairly between the two people.
Even the rabid racists and anti-semites over in /r/worldnews can accept this basic fact. The Jews aren't getting kicked out and neither are the Palestinians, so they're going to have to learn to play nice. The only way this is going to happen is when Hamas' presence is completely and permanently removed from the Gaza Strip. I'm sorry but your fantasy of Palestine annexing all of Israel isn't happening. So, in that case, we're going to need something a bit more plausible.
Ah yes, "stole" meaning "given by international treaty 40 years ago"
I guess they should just pack up shop
(no, this doesn't mean you get to fire random rockets every day)
How about Israelis whose ancestors have lived in what is now Israel since the first anthropologically modern humans first inhabited that region? Where should they go?
We pushed the last guy who had a solution for that to suicide!
If some guys came to your house and told you "hey, my ancestors lived here 2000 years ago, get out or we will shot you", you wouldn't take it very well, would you?
My question is regarding Jews whose families have continuously inhabited Israel since the dawn of human civilization in that area. Which is a lot of people.
What do those people have to do with the floods of jewish settlers who have occupied formerly Palestinian land in the last century? For that matter how many people can actually trace their local ancestry to the "dawn of human civilization" when even the bible itself has the first Jews as Mesopotamian immigrants who arrived in the region long after the first civilizations/cultures had existed in the area, and even with the bible being not credible in those terms, migrations of semetic and other peoples in the area happened quite a bit.
From a historical perspective, of course nobody can trace their ancestors back for multiple thousands of years (I'd say that 1,000 years is really pushing it, in fact, and is only possible for a small percentage of people). From an anthropological perspective, however, many people can. With a combination of anthropological research, historical documentation, and DNA testing, it is entirely possible for many people to have a good idea of where their ancestors lived thousands of years ago. And in the case of many Israelis-- to be more specific, many Mizrahi Jews-- there's absolutely no reason to believe that their ancestors ever lived anywhere else but in some area of what is now Israel.
Somehow, anti-Semites-- or even people who simply have a problem with the modern Israeli government, which is quite understandable-- are never, ever willing to answer the question of what exactly Mizrahi Jews should do. Should they just pick some other random country and somehow move there?
Interestingly although perhaps tangentially to this discussion, some current archaeological theories actually hypothesize that some of the very earliest Homo sapiens may in fact have first existed in the Levant, with one important archaeological site being a place that's right near modern-day Tel Aviv. So some inhabitants of that area-- like my sister-in-law's family, who have lived in the Tel Aviv area for as far back as anyone in their family knows-- may be part of a lineage of people whose earliest human ancestors lived right there and never left.
That doesn't mean the way the current Israeli government is handling the conflicts over the settlements is right, just, or the best solution. But it certainly means that the claims that all Jews should just somehow "get out of Israel" are bullshit.
When did I say Jews should get out of Israeli? Also, the conflict is to at least a certain degree perpetuated and exacerbated not be the people who have been the local population for millenia, but the policies of the Israeli government that have allowed millions of people who have flooded in since Israel was proclaimed a Jewish state, and the 60 years of native non-jewish residents seeing their homes and neighborhoods destroyed and re appropriated for jewish settlement.
Oh, but if you say that you're obviously just an anti-Semite. /s
That particular sentiment puzzles me. I don't understand how not agreeing with some of the policies and practices of the Israeli government makes me anti-jewish. I have reservations about the actions of the Palestinian government as well, and am just as vocal about it. No one bats an eye when I criticize the Palestinian leaders, but I'm instantly Satan if I so much as suggest that the Israeli leaders might have made made decisions.
Yes, it is. But what else do you expect?
More empathy from people who've never lived in the third world?
It's not about empathy, it's about being realistic. If you have terrorists living in your house, you're going to lose your house. I have sympathy for those who are forced to house the terrorists--not everyone does it willingly, I'm sure--but do you really expect Israel to not do anything?
Are you seriously trying to say that when that strike comes it's going to be so completely surgical that it only takes out the one house where the terrorists are?
That's not what happens.
And that's the fault of the Israeli's, and not Hamas who are intentionally using these targets so that whenever Israel reacts to being bombed there are headlines that say "5 hamas, 30 civilians dead"?
sigh I am not saying that is the "fault" of the Israeli GOVERNMENT (Please don't conflate a government with the people it governs. That's ridiculous.)
I was pointing out the idiocy of someone essentially saying that whoever is affected y those strikes is deserving of the destruction wrought.
I would appreciate it if you would deal with what I actually post, and not what you wish I had posted which would let you feel some smug sense of superiority.
> I was pointing out the idiocy of someone essentially saying that whoever is affected y those strikes is deserving of the destruction wrought.
For someone whining about reading and responding to what you actually post, you should actually read what duckvimes said:
"If you have terrorists living in your house, you're going to lose your house. I have sympathy for those who are forced to house the terrorists"
No one is saying those forced to house terrorists deserve it. We're saying that those who are housing terrorists should expect that their home be struck, it's the unfortunate truth of this conflict.
Wow. You went full retard there, didn't ya?
There was a news story about a JIDF drone that popped a flare over a HAMAS commanders house 2 hours before the strike happened, so people could get clear.
You know what happened?
HAMAS got every civilian in the area to crowd that house.
Israel bombed it, at least a dozen dead.
You know what? I'm on the Israeli's side here, you can't back down from that in any kind of realistic conflict, otherwise it'll make HAMAS do it more often, you were given clear warning of a strike, and you walked into the firing line, deal with it.
here's an even more recent story: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/09/world/middleeast/by-phone-and-leaflet-israeli-attackers-warn-gazans.html
the house "belonged to Hamas members involved in launching rockets or other military activity, and that they had been used as operations rooms."
> the caller said that everyone in the house must leave within five minutes, because it was going to be bombed.
> A further warning came as the occupants were leaving, he said in a telephone interview, when an Israeli drone apparently fired a flare at the roof of the three-story home. “Our neighbors came in to form a human shield,” he said, with some even going to the roof to try to prevent a bombing. Others were in the stairway when the house was bombed not long afterward.
israelis called the house to tell people to get out, and then dropped a flare on it and people decided to stand on the roof. but of course israel is to blame for these civilian deaths.
Just in case you weren't doing it intentionally, Israel's army is the IDF, the Israeli Defense Force.
> HAMAS got every civilian in the area to crowd that house.
Terrorists terrorize citizens into doing something. Therefore the citizens are to blame for their deaths.
Got it.
No, I'm not saying that. Although at least Israel uses precision weapons instead of firing tons of unguided rockets at civilian populations.
It's kind of hilarious how people seem to be taking out their anger at Israel on you...
Eh, I'm a mod of /r/isrconspiracyracist. I get that from people who hate Israel and/or Jews on a daily basis.
Yeah, you did say that. Whatever, though. If it helps you rationalize the death of innocents that's all that matters, yeah?
>Yeah, you did say that.
No, I didn't. Unless I'm missing a comment of mine, which is admittedly possible, I didn't say that anywhere.
>Whatever, though. If it helps you rationalize the death of innocents that's all that matters, yeah?
You read the article, right? No?
The "innocents" are getting warned beforehand. Israel is going out of its way to prevent said deaths. I'm not "rationalizing the death of innocents" at all.
> I'm sure--but do you really expect Israel to not do anything?
I expect Israel to stop oppressing the Palestinians. I expect them to stop the demolitions and the settlements. I expect Israel to adopt a foreign policy that decreases the likelihood of "terrorist" attacks against them.
What do you expect the Palestinians to do? Just accept the fact that they're going to be a second class in their own land?
When you're negotiating with a group that doesn't even acknowledge that you should exist, it's kind of hard to make progress on the core issues. Think about that for a minute, the Palestinian's chosen representatives are opposed to Israel's existence at all. I'm not saying Israel is completely correct in their actions, I think they should make a good faith effort and stop creating additional settlements, but at what point should Hamas, which by the way was democratically elected, make their own good faith effort at negotiation?
> the Palestinian's chosen representatives are opposed to Israel's existence at all.
Hamas was 'elected' in an illiberal democracy. Hardly free, fair, and open elections.
It doesn't matter. They were no closer to statehood before they had the elections that put Hamas in power. The point is to put off solving this as long as possible because it allows the facts on the ground to change in Israel's favor in regards to division of terrority. The 1967 boarders are almost impossible now because the facts have changed, and they will continue to change until the US puts real pressure on Israel to make peace.
...K
^^^edit: ^^^dat ^^^controversial ^^^cross
No longer gonna put in any effort?
When your only proposed solution (and your only answer to my question) is to completely reconfigure the Middle East, it's not worth the time. There are terrorists using civilian houses as shields. Do you have any solution other than completely removing Israel from Palestine? No?
> Do you have any solution other than completely removing Israel from Palestine? No?
What a ridiculous straw man, no one has that as a solution.
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It's not my proposed solution; it's the solution called for by the Obama Administration and the EU.
Also, I'm not seeing where the entire Middle East is being reconfigured here.
Umm...
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/report-u-s-drones-may-killed-civilians/
The US bombed and killed a wedding party. After all, they "might not or might have been" "Terrorists". Don't throw around the word terrorist like it justifies anything. There isn't a good side in this.
I'm not defending or whitewashing that event at all. But the scenarios are pretty different, not in the least because Israel is warning the civilians to leave ahead of time.
Yeah forcing homelessness and destitution but at least they were kind enough to tell them their lives are going to be ruined before bringing about the reckoning. Israel will do what it does, the terrorists will do what they do, and the civilians living in a proxy war zone for the Middle East v. Israel will be fucked. I don't think anyone is going to be praising Israel for destroying their homes just because they knew it was going to happen.
I'm not saying we should praise Israel, but at least it's better than killing the civilians.
Wow. Calling that area "third world" really shows your ignorance.
Gaza is part of the third world.