/r/belgium lights up some US flag drama (np.reddit.com)
SubredditDrama
53 ups - 0 downs = 53 votes
120 comments submitted at 19:13:48 on Jul 1, 2014 by Belgiumball
/r/belgium lights up some US flag drama (np.reddit.com)
SubredditDrama
53 ups - 0 downs = 53 votes
120 comments submitted at 19:13:48 on Jul 1, 2014 by Belgiumball
Wow. If Belgium wanted to piss off Americans, they found the right button to push. We do NOT like burning the flag. Don't care who does it for what, that shit doesn't fly quietly in the US.
I'm a little surprised Belgians are getting so offended that Americans are pissed at them for it.
It's a burning piece of cloth. Iunno, we just find it ridiculous you find it so offensive.
I think most Americans have a certain emotional gut reaction when they see the flag being openly disrespected because patriotism and love for one's country are pushed on us from a very young age. There are even laws relating to the proper handling and care of American flags (though no penalty for failure to comply).
I'm not an especially patriotic person myself, but even I had to stop and think if the image was truly offensive or if I was experiencing the effects of previous conditioning to respect the flag (I was - it's not a big deal).
At the end of the day, it's just a cultural difference, and the person who created that image shouldn't be faulted if he was truly ignorant of that aspect of American culture. Even if his goal was to intentionally pervert an important piece of American iconography in order to offend Americans, at worst it makes him a troll and kind of an asshole.
>There are even laws relating to the proper handling and care of American flags
Yes and the correct way to dispose of a flag is to burn it.
The difference being is that disposal is done with a bit of honor.
It is still stupid to be pissed off over a piece of cloth. My nations flag has been burned countless times too but I just laugh and think "hey, thanks for disposing of it the correct way".
> You call it patriotism, I call it brainwashing. I bet we won't agree on much.
Just FYI, you attributed my words to /u/Gyper.
And despite what your haughty attitude would suggest, I am not in fact "brain washed" by American Patriotism. In my opinion, Patriotism and Nationalism are destructive and divisive forces in not only international politics, but also interpersonal relationships. But it's impossible to deny the amount of national pride that is somewhat innate in a majority of the American population - it's the result of living in a large, accomplished, and prosperous first-world nation.
Woops.
If that was the result more nations would have it.
I'm not really sure you can compare the US to any other nation. It occupies a very unique niche in the modern world. What other nation currently existing has gone from foreign subjugation to the most powerful, influential presence on the planet in just over a couple hundred years? The amazing successes of the United States on both the domestic and world stages in such a short amount of time has given birth to the "MURICA! FUCK YEAH!" sentiment you see on Reddit and other places. It's an obnoxious by-product of such immense success in so short an amount of time.
That is sort of true, but like all things concerning American Flag etiquette, a certain degree of ceremony is expected of the disposal. From the code: "The flag, when it is in such a condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem for display, should be destroyed in a dignified way, preferable by burning."
Burning the flag in effigy or protest is not 'dignified'.
It is still halfway there. No need to be pissed off over it. They could do a lot of stuff to it that was way worse.
> It is still halfway there.
I guess so, but so is burying a body in a 3 foot grave or giving your child half of their recommended vaccinations - "halfway there" is "not good enough" in most cases. The prevailing sentiment in American culture is that the flag is an important symbolic icon that should be treated with respect. So, with that reasoning, by disrespecting the flag you are disrespecting the people and their culture.
Traditions rooted in symbolism and iconography are rarely rational and can seem baffling to outsiders, but that doesn't diminish their importance to the people who practice them.
> They could do a lot of stuff to it that was way worse
That's really terrible justification for anything.
Well your waffles are dumb. So there.
Two different cultures. I'm sure there are things that Americans do that Belgium would be offended by. The flag is symbolic of US culture and veteran culture. Burning it is a kin to flipping off armed service members and veterans of wars and Americans in general. Usually when the flag is burned it is done in disrespect towards Americans so when Americans see that it is the first thing that comes to mind.
As an american, I find it amusing how up in arms people get about it, because I was taught that burning is the correct way to dispose of an old or retired flag. I used to be part of flag ceremonies every month at a veterans memorial where the flag was burned to commemorate a veteran. It's ridiculous that people take it so seriously.
You've participated in flag burning ceremonies but dont see the difference between retiring a flag and burning it to send a symbolic message?
There's a difference, obviously. But I think people overreact, nothing wrong or deeply insulting about using a symbol to send a message
> nothing wrong or deeply insulting about using a symbol to send a message
Well, see, the thing is, you don't get to decide what is or is not insulting to someone. Because it doesn't insult you doesn't mean it isn't insulting to someone else. And with the deeply-rooted symbolism of the American Flag in American culture, the act of defacing or burning it to send a message is guaranteed to insult a large number of people whether or not it makes any logical sense to be offended by that act.
It's mostly due to the last few years. I was an Eagle Scout and that's what I was taught. But people see videos of anti-American sentiments burning a flag as disrespect and that's how it is now seen.
The focus on videos like that is just a bunch of right wing blowbags taking a few protests and blowing them way out of proportion. Flags have been burned as protest for a really long time, and people really need to step back and realize that the vast majority of flag burning aren't protests, aren't anti-american and that the flag is just a flag. And yeah, I'm an Eagle too, that's how I learned it.
> right wing blowbags taking a few protests
I don't think it was just a few right wing media outlets who showed those, although they certainly pushed the "with us or against us" ideology. Either way, that's what flag burning has been associated with in the US. Its been associated with a sign of disrespect. That's all. But you're right. Interestingly enough, I have seen protest videos by war veterans (protesting the war) who had the flag turned upside down. A young veteran came up and was very angry. If the young veteran had realized that the flag hung upside down is symbolic of a nation in distress he'd realize that isn't meant as a sign of disrespect at all. It's somewhere on youtube, don't recall the name though.
Some other Americans find it ridiculous too, but it's still one of those red buttons that you never hit unless you're stupid or honestly, sincerely looking to make some people angry.
If it's "just a cloth," why would you burn it then? Don't act like you don't understand why burning a flag could possibly be offensive to someone.
I don't put much store in it, but it isn't just burning a piece of cloth any more than saying offensive things is just expelling air from your mouth. It's the symbolism and the meaning that matter to people. Generally the feeling here is that it's a shitty thing to do, but you should be free to do it just like you're free to express yourself in most other ways that don't harm other people. Obviously there are people who believe all kinds of variations on that, though, but that seems to be the way the wind has blown.
You should look at it from a different perspective than your own.
You mean like the country spreading their ideology throughout the world? har.
Besides, it's a drawing, it's not even a real burning flag. I don't see the fuzz.
Feels good to be on top.
Some of us still belong to real countries. American nationalism isn't about chance or blood, its about ideology. Burning that flag is basically saying 'America doesn't exist,' and unlike parts of Europe separatism and willingness to adopt new political arrangements is not an option here.