EMSK why the "Red Pill" will kill you inside (self.everymanshouldknow)

everymanshouldknow

1500 ups - 0 downs = 1500 votes

Foreword: I realize that this isn't your typical EMSK entry, but I view it as essential advice to any man who wants to be happy in a heterosexual relationship. Nothing against men who want to be in a non-hetero relationship either; this is just addressing those who may be getting pulled in by the "Red Pill" philosophy.

For the uninitiated, "Red Pill" is a term co-opted by the types of people who frequent /r/TheRedPill (enter at your own risk, lots of lady-hate in there). It's a reference to The Matrix, in which Morpheus offers Neo a choice of one of two pills... a blue pill, which will make him forget and allow him to contentedly go back to a life of brainwashed mediocrity, or a red pill, which will wake him up to an unpleasant truth but grant him great power.

The idea of the "Red Pill" as is commonly used now, is that men are constantly losing a war of what /r/TheRedPill users refer to as "Sexual strategy." Essentially the premise is that women have what we want (sex), and they can make us bend over backwards to get it. They have us wrapped around their little fingers. Those who "take the Red Pill" awaken to their true male potential and learn to get what they want without having to submit and forfeit their masculinity.

The subreddit is rife with success stories from men who claim they've gotten what they want out of their relationship. One guy claims (and I'm paraphrasing), "She does my laundry and dishes, we have sex whenever I want, and she knows that I don't belong to her, and if she ever slips up or takes me for granted, she’s gone."

It's not that I doubt what he's saying. I believe it. The problem is, what he's describing is emotional abuse. What the Red Pill advocates is taking advantage of common weak points in the typical female psyche (most of which are present in your typical male psyche as well; everyone has weak points, and most of them are common to all humans, though some are more pronounced in one sex or another) to put pressure on women and bend them to your will. Users advise doing things like keeping her guessing, changing what you want and then berating her for not keeping up with your whims. Several advise that you never show affection for her unless she’s done something to please you. You break them like you'd break an animal.

And it's damned effective in some cases. It'll get you what you want if you do it right.

But you shouldn't want that, and here's why.

The Red Pill subreddit is also full of "Blue Pill Stories," in which guys get emotionally abused by their girlfriends. They lament being used for their money, their homes, their emotional support, what have you, and then being left when they weren't "Alpha" enough to keep their girlfriends around. It's a shame, it really is. Nobody deserves that kind of abuse.

"Nobody" includes women, though. What the Red Pill strategy does is flip that power dynamic on its head. When it works, now it's the man who is in power and the woman who is suffering. The man gets the sex without having to commit any real effort to the relationship, aside from making sure that his SO's emotions are brutally crushed on a regular basis. You haven't fixed anything, you've only made sure it's your SO who's suffering and not you. And the reason she stays is the same reason Blue Pill guys stay in their relationships: They don't want to be alone.

And as long as you keep that power dynamic active, you will never know what love is. Because love means that you feel what your lover feels. If she hurts, you hurt. If you hurt her, you feel all of her pain and all of the shame for knowing that you're the one that caused it. If you really love someone, you'll never want to hurt them. And make no mistake, that's what the Red Pill is: cold, calculated, systematic emotional torture meant to produce a desired response. Methods like keeping your prisoner guessing, changing what you want, keeping them off balance, those are all interrogation techniques meant to break your prisoner down on a mental and emotional level and produce a compliant charge.

Put quite simply, someone couldn't ever do such a thing to someone they truly loved.

There is one thing that Red Pill has right. Sexual strategy sucks. But the solution isn't getting better at it than your SO is. The solution is agreeing with one another that you're not going to play the game. If a game is going to always suck for one player, and both players care about one another, they're going to find a better game to play.

You want a healthy, stable relationship that is going to be rewarding? Here's the secret. Remember that your SO is just as complex, intelligent and vulnerable a human being as you are. She has needs just like you do. While she might place different values on her various needs, while she might express them differently, they're every bit as important to her as yours are to you. Life is a war. But if you want to win it, you and your SO need to be on the same side.

You don't need to break your girlfriend or wife. You need to talk to them. If they're doing something that hurts you, you need to tell them. And not "I wish you would quit that." Tell them "This hurts me when you do that." If they care about you, they'll take action to prevent causing you pain. To position and strategize to get what you want out of your marriage is to deny your most potent asset: An intelligent human being who cares about you and wants to see you happy above all else, and who wants to be happy alongside you.

And if you don't have that in your SO, you either need to get to that point or get out. There are many, many worse things than being single. One of them is being in an abusive or emotionally vacant relationship (on either side, abuser or victim). Don't view your time as being single as a sexless desert. View it as a time to grow and realize who you are. You need to be able to define yourself as an individual before you’re ready for a relationship.

Human beings are as diverse as life on this planet. For every type, there is a countertype. There is someone out there for just about everyone. However, none of your relationships will work out in a healthy manner until you realize that women are people too, not animals to be broken. You don't need to be an Alpha. You're not a damned dog. You're a human being. Human beings can communicate complex concepts, rebel against their base instincts to find better ways of doing things, and above all, reflect on their actions and empathize. You don't need to establish dominance, you just need to find somebody that's willing to actively pursue your happiness alongside their own; and you need to be willing to do the same for them. If you're not ready to do that, you're not ready to have a healthy relationship.

But there's good news... Something else human beings are good at is changing. You want someone to be willing to change for you, you have to make sure you're willing to change yourself a bit. Everything's a two-way street. Just make sure you're changing for the better. Being willing to change doesn't mean flopping over and doing whatever is asked of you. Here, change is a bad word for this. Be willing to improve yourself. Nobody's perfect. Spot those places that need work (I assure you, they're there, and if you can't spot them, I guarantee the people around you can), and start improving on those things.

In order to have a healthy relationship, you have to be a healthy human being first. A healthy human being doesn't use sexual strategy. You'll only ever have a healthy relationship if both parties refuse to play that game.

I mentioned earlier that Morpheus's "Red Pill" was originally symbolism for awakening, both to truth and to power, while the "Blue Pill" was a metaphor for staying asleep and maintaining the status quo.

In truth, the Red Pill as they represent it isn't a true awakening at all. It's a capitulation to a false dichotomy. A true awakening is realizing that the people around you are more than just faces, that they all have their own stories, their own thoughts, hopes and dreams, and that they are just as complex as you are. A true awakening is realizing that you don't have to win the fight (and thereby habitually hurt someone you ostensibly care about), or lose it. That you can take your ball and go home.

The Morpheus of sexual strategy is offering you two pills: Red and blue. Win sexual strategy, or lose it.

Punch him in the face and tell him you're not playing his bullshit game.

Edit: /u/TheCrash84 pointed out that I had not used the proper subreddit name. It is /r/TheRedPill, not /r/RedPill as I had originally shared.

Edit 2: At /u/grizzburger's advice, I offer this TL;DR: It's unfair that men suffer from sexual strategy, but that doesn't make it okay to flip it and make women suffer instead. No one deserves to be emotionally abused.

Edit 3: I feel that I should point out that I do not wish to demonize any group of people. I do not mean to say that all those who participate in /r/TheRedPill or similar forums are dead inside. What I am speaking out against is the use of sexual strategy and emotional manipulation to render your partner compliant. Don't participate in that? Great. I don't have a problem with you. I chose /r/TheRedPill to point out in particular because when I went there, that was what the majority of the posts were about. I know there are other posts in that subreddit, some of which are downright praiseworthy.

310 comments submitted at 15:52:37 on Jun 30, 2014 by TalShar

  • [-]
  • josephfromlondon
  • 45 Points
  • 17:46:24, 30 June

Good summary. I've spent a bit of time lurking TRP recently – I read all of the sidebar and most of the top content.

It's an interesting beast. It combines legitimate advice (don't get obsessed with one girl, don't put women on a pedestal, don't make sex the sole goal of your life, be confident, funny and direct, get in shape) with some truly horrible ideology.

The thing is, it sucks people in. The good advice is also the most straightforward psychologically, and so what people try first. It works, and so it becomes easy to conclude that TRP works and continue further down the road. It's then easy to fall into confirmation bias regarding the more toxic elements.

  • [-]
  • thename226
  • 1 Points
  • 18:39:02, 30 June

> It's an interesting beast. It combines legitimate advice (don't get obsessed with one girl, don't put women on a pedestal, don't make sex the sole goal of your life, be confident, funny and direct, get in shape) with some truly horrible ideology.

That's exactly how I feel like about TRP. I say "do what they do, not what they say", the opposite of the common advice. That means be confident, don't let people step all over you, have a good body language, work out, etc... But you don't have to believe all the woman hating stuff they say.

  • [-]
  • grizzburger
  • 235 Points
  • 16:48:51, 30 June

> Nobody deserves that kind of abuse.

>"Nobody" includes women, though.

Put that as your TL;DR, fucking rock solid that is.

  • [-]
  • semsr
  • 1 Points
  • 18:21:09, 30 June

Also,

> you've only made sure it's your SO who's suffering and not you.

Isn't this the stated goal of /r/theredpill?

  • [-]
  • In_Liberty
  • 1 Points
  • 18:36:11, 30 June

>Isn't this the stated goal of /r/theredpill[1] ?

Not even remotely.

  • [-]
  • nenyim
  • 1 Points
  • 18:26:04, 30 June

It's not stated like this but yes it's imply in all the post that I read that someone is going to suffer in the relationship. So yes it would be on the goal.

  • [-]
  • iamcrazyjoe
  • -63 Points
  • 18:03:47, 30 June

Except there is no public outcry about women emotionally abusing men, using sex as a power play, etc.

  • [-]
  • sp00nzhx
  • 292 Points
  • 16:07:51, 30 June

That was a great write up. Well done indeed.

  • [-]
  • TalShar
  • 188 Points
  • 16:26:56, 30 June

Thanks. It's been stewing in my head for a long time. It makes me sad when I see abusive relationships and I wish I could help people realize your SO should be your partner, not your competitor or supplier.

  • [-]
  • Rats_In_Boxes
  • 34 Points
  • 16:46:29, 30 June

You're a good man, OP.

  • [-]
  • Coolfuckingname
  • 12 Points
  • 17:49:43, 30 June

Thanks for Edit 3.

Ive always considered my self equal rights (feminist if you like that term) and love my girl but some red pill thinking let me communicate directly and honestly with her, and solved some problems that would have broken us up later. She was a bit angry but respected that i loved her enough to be clear with her. Now we get along better, I've got more self respect, she has a man for a boyfriend instead of a wet mop.

Edit 3 was a good edit. Thank you.

  • [-]
  • MadnessofKingHippo
  • 27 Points
  • 18:06:03, 30 June

Yeah that wasn't "red pill strategy" you used, but just basic human discussion. You just were direct and honest...something which, if anything, the Red Pill is the opposite of. They are full of using manipulation instead of honesty.

  • [-]
  • Coolfuckingname
  • -1 Points
  • 18:10:46, 30 June

No they're not. Every group has members that miss the point, including "feminists". Redpill gave me the firm masculinity to be hard, direct, and risk loosing the relationship. Saying its all manipulation is not fair or accurate. Yes there are some assholes there, but i meet exactly as many on the "feminist" subs or websites. Thats been my experience. Im sorry yours was less positive.

  • [-]
  • ILoveLamp9
  • 1 Points
  • 18:31:49, 30 June

I don't know anything about the Red Pill or what they stand for, although I've heard a lot in different threads over time, but just wanted to give my two cents here:

>Redpill gave me the firm masculinity to be hard, direct, and risk loosing the relationship

I don't think "firm masculinity" should be the engine that pushes someone to be hard and direct. Just be honest and open. I mean, it really is that simple. If you're a mature adult, you've learned that life will always give you bitter pills to swallow (no pun intended). The success of things that are so basic and foundational to a relationship shouldn't be tied to your masculinity or femininity; it should just be something two people foster through their growth together. This is what I feel the folks at Red Pill seem to not understand. Their is no tactical strategy needed.

Not knocking you btw; just your example reminded me of what feels backwards about their beliefs and values.

  • [-]
  • Voodoodollluck
  • 1 Points
  • 18:37:53, 30 June

It's good to see a guy do the write up on this. I've never heard of the whole red pill thing, but if a female voiced what you said, she would get a lot of extreme hate. Especially from the red pill advocates.people would say she's just a feminist and upset about being called out on her games. But like you said, no one deserves that kind of treatment.

As far as the the red pill sub, To me it almost sounds like a messed up club of guys banding together. Justifying treating women like shit,either bc they themselves were or just to give women what they assume we all do and "deserve" back. I guess a fair bit of them could be guys who got treated badly and then just as many, if not more o guys who think of women as possession to be used as they see fit, before the sub's encouragement. Kind of wonder how many of the guys subscribed to that sub are also members of abusive subs.

It just seems like a sub of bitter/(passive)aggressive/ignorant people. I can understand the blue pill side of it, helping and encouraging those guys. But to encourage mistreating anybody, not just women, isn't good.

Plus, there are healthy relationships where the man and woman both prefer the sexual stereotypes. The woman at home taking care of things and the man being the provider. I know a few of solid relationships between admirable people that live like that. It's what they like and makes them happy together. That shouldn't be forced on anyone.

  • [-]
  • th3wis3
  • 1 Points
  • 18:19:46, 30 June

/r/TheTrueRedPill

  • [-]
  • Hamburger77
  • 87 Points
  • 16:54:46, 30 June

Excellent post. I actually sub to trp (hold on a second, read the rest of the comment before you crucify me with down votes)

It didn't seem too bad went I first stumbled on it... There were some moderate posts. Talks about how some guys get tossed through the ringer just for some action. And I was thinking "Yeah, nothing standing up for yourself and maintaining your masculinity"

But then it goes to way too far, linking to articles about how women shouldn't vote. How to act in relationships to get what you want. It just follows this rabbit hole down to absurdity. If the perfect red pill relationship is having a wife who's only value add is cooking, cleaning and sex then count me out. Yeah, sounds really good on paper but what about an emotional connection? What about someone who I can talk to, who would understand me like no other? I have to cut all that out to get what I want? Fuck that, that's not real. Call me "blue pill" I don't give a shit really, I don't feel the need to impress that online community.

If there was ever a purple pill, that would be the answer. You don't have to give up every masculine trait in your body and give into every demand, but at the same time it's not a war-zone where you have to dominate your will on her 24/7. There's a healthy middle ground to be found.

  • [-]
  • TalShar
  • 68 Points
  • 16:57:49, 30 June

Exactly. Which is why you punch Morpheus in his smug face. =P

The other thing about having a domineering relationship like that, one based on power, is that the moment you let up on the pressure, the rug comes out from under you. If you have a Red Pill relationship, you can't count on you SO to be there when you're weak. Because you can't let her see you weak. You can't let her know you can be weak.

That's what having an SO is all about, though. Being vulnerable to one another.

  • [-]
  • Kayden01
  • 10 Points
  • 18:03:03, 30 June

This will get absolutely crucified, but...

You've mistaken the red pills sexual strategy advice with actual relationship advice. The power dynamics that you're commenting on are the dynamics a lot of the guys there advocate for use on short term non serious relationships. If you want to see more of what they advocate for real relationships, it's easier to figure out by looking at the redpillwomen sub.

Also, theredpill used to be a lot calmer, more moderate - now it seems to be filled with a lot of hurt young guys that want to hurt the women that caused them pain. Personally, I really hope they grow the fuck out of it.

  • [-]
  • Monosentence
  • 2 Points
  • 18:14:37, 30 June

I hope they grow the fuck out of it before they severely wound someone, internally or otherwise.

  • [-]
  • dpash
  • 1 Points
  • 18:21:18, 30 June

Like the Isla Vista shootings? To take it to the extreme conclusion.

  • [-]
  • Kayden01
  • -2 Points
  • 18:17:47, 30 June

Or otherwise? Great foreboding there..

Keep in mind, a significant number of these guys are wounded themselves - and nobody gives a shit. That, I think, is what drives so many to trp, that women that hurt emotionally get support - especially from men, but that hurt men are met with indifference or disgust.

I think brushing it off the way you just did just makes the entire mess worse.

  • [-]
  • GamerKey
  • 1 Points
  • 18:35:57, 30 June

>hurt men are met with indifference or disgust.

I get the feeling you don't have any real friends, regardless of their gender.

Off the top of my head I can name 4 people that I can count on for emotional support should something bad happen to me, two of them female. I'm male by the way.

  • [-]
  • theth1rdchild
  • 1 Points
  • 18:28:32, 30 June

Usually the women that hurt them seems to be their mother.

That sub is more and more just an advanced study on "my mom is a bitch waaahhhh"

As to your original point, if you (or they) think it's okay to manipulate and abuse someone just because you're not serious about the relationship, well

Goddamn please stop being horrible

  • [-]
  • Kayden01
  • 1 Points
  • 18:35:46, 30 June

Wtf? Most of the newbie posts I've seen there are variations on 'I just got out of a LTR/Marriage in which my SO said everything was fine, I tried to do everything I was supposed to, but then found out she was banging x'.

Manipulate? Everyone manipulates on some level. Hell, honesty can be considered manipulation depending on timing/tone/context. And abuse? What abuse? I see constantly that trp is advocating abuse - when at most what I see is advocacy of traditional gender roles, with the only penalty advocated being withdrawal from a relationship. That is not abuse.

I really hope someone that's actually involved with trp comes and starts setting some of this shit straight, because if I, a somewhat interested observer, can see issues with the arguments being made, then there really is an issue.

  • [-]
  • fizzgig2
  • 6 Points
  • 18:06:52, 30 June

but that's the thing. in this society for a man to appear weak or show emotion is very unnatractive. Its how we're judged as men. if we appear weak we lose the respect of our peers. so the only way to not have that happen is to at least appear strong. The more important issue here is that society seems to have forgoten that men are human beings too. we get emotional, we get pissed off, we need to vent or cry sometimes. But we're not allowed in a sense. we will be looked down upon and viewed as lesser men if we do. and if that happens people will try to use you and women will not see you as a potential partner.

  • [-]
  • TalShar
  • 22 Points
  • 18:12:28, 30 June

> but that's the thing. in this society for a man to appear weak or show emotion is very unnatractive. Its how we're judged as men. if we appear weak we lose the respect of our peers.

Then find a lady who doesn't allow society to dictate how she views gender roles. There are more and more of them out there; moderate feminists (not the crazy, man-hating ones) are the way they are precisely because of that.

>The more important issue here is that society seems to have forgoten that men are human beings too. we get emotional, we get pissed off, we need to vent or cry sometimes. But we're not allowed in a sense. we will be looked down upon and viewed as lesser men if we do. and if that happens people will try to use you and women will not see you as a potential partner.

It's a huge problem in our society. But turning the abuse around isn't the answer. If you sit down at a chess board and your opponent has five rooks, you don't try to win anyway. You flip the table and punch him in the face and find another chess board.

  • [-]
  • fizzgig2
  • 1 Points
  • 18:25:20, 30 June

> Then find a lady who doesn't allow society to dictate how she views gender roles. There are more and more of them out there; moderate feminists (not the crazy, man-hating ones) are the way they are precisely because of that.

There really isn't that many women like that. I'm sure there are some but they are very few and far between and if you found one, good for you but for the rest of us its slim pickings. I've been in the dating game long enough.

I'm not trying to complain here or say most women are bad people, that's just the way things are. There are double standards that we just have to deal with. and in my opinion trp helps. If you look past all the hate, the underlying ideologies of being the best you can be, exercising, eating right, earning your way in this world, not being weak etc. is very good advice for those of us that are confused and struggling. Obviously taking that stuff to the extreme is very unhealthy, but as a man, if you want to have a happy and fulfiling life there are some things that you have to come to terms with.

  • [-]
  • wentblackwentback
  • 1 Points
  • 18:35:25, 30 June

>There really isn't that many women like that. I'm sure there are some but they are very few and far between and if you found one, good for you but for the rest of us its slim pickings.

As a woman who doesn't let gender roles define me and surrounds myself with people who are similar (including an awesome boyfriend who is very supportive of my tomboy ways), I find this statement inaccurate.

Try talking to people about their ideologies and you'll find that it's fairly common, as OP stated. I assure you, it's pretty easy to find girls/women like this, at least where I live.

  • [-]
  • SacUp
  • 1 Points
  • 18:20:21, 30 June

There is not a person ljving or dead who does not allow society to dictate gender roles. Whether its cultural or counter cultural, society will dictate.

  • [-]
  • GamerKey
  • 1 Points
  • 18:32:54, 30 June

Society will influence, yes. But that doesn't mean there aren't people out there who think for themselves and question what "society dictates".

  • [-]
  • Adamsoski
  • 14 Points
  • 18:14:17, 30 June

That is not the sort of woman you want as your partner. There are literally billions of women, and a very large number of them (I would even say the majority of them) do not look down on men for being emotional.

  • [-]
  • Mr_Evil_MSc
  • 7 Points
  • 18:19:15, 30 June

Unattractive to who? My wife loves me; when I show her my emotional vulnerability, she loves me more, because she understands me, and she feels privileged for getting to see all of me. And vice versa. If someone is disgusted at your own emotions, or 'vulnerabilities' then they likely have their own issues. Aks yourself, is this really the case? Or is just what I believe? Intelligent, mature grown ups are the same, regardless of gender. They're the people you should seek out.

  • [-]
  • fizzgig2
  • 1 Points
  • 18:30:04, 30 June

> Unattractive to who? My wife loves me

well good. I'm happy for you. But understand that this is not the way most of society works.

  • [-]
  • theth1rdchild
  • 1 Points
  • 18:25:34, 30 June

What if I told you that the patriarchy feminists complain about is the same concept that tells men they aren't allowed to be weak or human, but instead must play into the power fantasy where men are gods, incapable of true weakness or fears?

Not trying to recruit for feminism, just pointing out that a lot of girls that consider themselves feminists are looking out for you, too.

  • [-]
  • FactualPedanticReply
  • 1 Points
  • 18:30:11, 30 June

I'm a man. Nearly every romantic relationship I've had in my adult life was with a woman who valued my emotional vulnerability as well as my emotional strength. My current partner can't stand men who scorn weakness as "unmasculine," and she values my emotional availability. I was raised to be this way in a family that also values these things. Either we're all some weirdly lucky island of emotional health (not likely, in my family!), or you're in a bad place, my man.

  • [-]
  • SlobBarker
  • 1 Points
  • 18:35:12, 30 June

This was my first impression of TRP too. On the surface it promotes some good values: Self-confidence, self respect, pride, stoicism, etc. Then you are exactly right, it becomes flat out absurd in so many ways.

  • [-]
  • Codeshark
  • 0 Points
  • 17:57:20, 30 June

I think doing whatever works is the way to go. If it is a choice between being an abusive ass hole and being alone, I could see why men and women would do that out of fear. I have pretty much always been alone for ever in a certain sense, so I am used to it.

  • [-]
  • spottedstripes
  • 2 Points
  • 18:12:01, 30 June

There is a purple pill sub

  • [-]
  • ChunkyLaFunga
  • 1 Points
  • 18:28:05, 30 June

> If the perfect red pill relationship is having a wife who's only value add is cooking, cleaning and sex then count me out. Yeah, sounds really good on paper but what about an emotional connection?

What the hell...? How does that sound good on paper?

  • [-]
  • UnkleTBag
  • 1 Points
  • 18:33:08, 30 June

I was introduced to the RP ideas when I read Married Man Sex Life. I don't know why his flavor of Red Pill is not more present in the subreddit, because it is extremely fair to women, and emphasizes the fact that to be the highest-quality partner, you need to be an expert at both alpha and beta behaviors. I'm wondering if the audience has gotten younger on the subreddit, because marriage is pretty unpopular there. It seems to be dominated by "pickup" practicing members ("negging" is not traditional RP behavior), when I think Athol Kay's take on it has a lot more in common with the kink community. Deep trust is difficult to establish in FWB relationships, and reddit's flavor of TRP severely undervalues the utility of that level of trust.

  • [-]
  • Coolfuckingname
  • 2 Points
  • 17:51:23, 30 June

Wanna start /r/purplepill with me?

Oops. Seems it exists already.

  • [-]
  • 12ozSlug
  • 1 Points
  • 18:35:04, 30 June

Is it about heartburn treatments?

  • [-]
  • Thoguth
  • 27 Points
  • 17:21:12, 30 June

Wow, I started to downvote this as some kind of politically-opinionated drama, but having read through it you are spectacularly spot-on. Men should understand that the answer to a relationship strategy that gets you used is not a relationship strategy that uses the other person.

  • [-]
  • TalShar
  • 7 Points
  • 17:40:04, 30 June

Thanks for reading before downvoting. :)

  • [-]
  • Ultie
  • 45 Points
  • 17:23:54, 30 June

Thank you for this. I think a lot of men get drawn to theredpill because it seems like an easy solution. It's a 1-2-3 strategy to get whatever you want, whenever you want. But relationships are a lot more complicated than that, and mostly founded on compromise.

I was in an on and off relationship with a red-pill type guy for 3 years, we were engaged near the end of it. Over that period, especially the last year we were together, I went from a girl with an ivy league aspirations to a shell of a woman pulling 2 full time jobs, doing all the cooking and cleaning, while her college-drop out fiance sat on his ass and played video games and tweeted for "networking/research". It was very abusive, and by the time I finally snapped and kicked him out of the apartment (his name wasn't on the lease, and I was sick of the manipulation and rape and lies) I had lost all the ambition I once had. On some level I really thought all I was good at was sex and cooking, and I couldn't get anyone better than my boyfriend.

It's been a long road to rekindle my ambitions again, and it took a very, very long time to bring myself around to dating.

  • [-]
  • TalShar
  • 6 Points
  • 17:39:31, 30 June

"Dark side, quicker, easier, more seductive." Kill you, it will.

I'm sorry you had to go through that. I hope you find somebody that would never dream of repeating such an injustice upon you.

  • [-]
  • Sippin_that_Haterade
  • -7 Points
  • 17:59:39, 30 June

Your ex wasn't red pill. A man who has swallowed the red pill wouldn't be playing video games on the couch all day or be unemployed. The red pill is very about self improvement; working out, having a job, being the best man you can be. Your ex was just a douche bag.

  • [-]
  • Is_It_A_Throwaway
  • 43 Points
  • 16:33:06, 30 June

This was a great read, thank you for taking your time /u/TalShar

The point that reasonated the most to me was

> Sexual strategy sucks. But the solution isn't getting better at it than your SO is. The solution is agreeing with one another that you're not going to play the game. If a game is going to always suck for one player, and both players care about one another, they're going to find a better game to play.

> What the Red Pill strategy does is flip that power dynamic on its head. When it works, now it's the man who is in power and the woman who is suffering.

This is TRP in a nutshell for me: they're very partially right in their extremely superficial analysis of society and gender dynamics about nice guys finishing last (not popular feminist/Rober Glover's definition of Nice Guys, the manipulative ones, but actual nice guys who are good people but "fail" in the dating scene, for example). I've read a great paper once, written by a trans person about nice guys and masculinity in general, but I can't seem to find it now. It was incredible how superficially the analysis of society were similar to TRP's, but the last becomes this horrible thing because it accepts it and takes advantage of it.

I've x-posted this to /r/FeMRADebates and you're welcome to join the discussion there!

  • [-]
  • DJ-Salinger
  • 10 Points
  • 16:58:42, 30 June

> written by a trans person about nice guys and masculinity in general

I would love to read this!!!

  • [-]
  • punkynyan
  • 4 Points
  • 17:59:18, 30 June

Ditto, if anyone knows what /u/IsItA_Throwaway is refering too please link it.

  • [-]
  • TalShar
  • -5 Points
  • 16:36:53, 30 June

Thanks! I noticed the x-post and I had never seen /r/FeMRADebates before, so now I know it exists!

It is a sad thing that nice guys (using your definition of actual guys who are nice) often "strike out" in the dating scene. However, if those guys stick to it, I find that they often end up with ladies who get sick of dating the "bad boys." And then their lady knows what they want in a man, and they appreciate what they've got!

Just takes a little patience. Or, well, a lot of patience. But nothing worth doing is easy.

  • [-]
  • iamcrazyjoe
  • 22 Points
  • 17:57:16, 30 June

I want you to know how horrible this sentiment is. You are saying "Don't worry nice guys, after going through a bunch of guys she WANTS to be with but treat her like shit, she will eventually give you a shot as a last resort. Don't get frustrated and try to act like the guys all the women fawn over, just wait until the women are sick of them."

  • [-]
  • JDragon
  • 1 Points
  • 18:24:03, 30 June

People grow up and figure out what they're actually looking for in a SO. There's nothing shameful about wanting a mature and intelligent relationship.

That said, there's nothing wrong with self-improvement, especially if "being a nice guy" involves a neckbeard and fedora.

  • [-]
  • iamcrazyjoe
  • 1 Points
  • 18:33:12, 30 June

So maybe the message should be to women about what makes a good relationship instead of guys to "wait until women smarten up"?

  • [-]
  • TheSonofLiberty
  • 1 Points
  • 18:35:15, 30 June

Sometimes it is a last resort.

  • [-]
  • probably_quite_drunk
  • 1 Points
  • 18:22:32, 30 June

> It is a sad thing that nice guys (using your definition of actual guys who are nice) often "strike out" in the dating scene. However, if those guys stick to it, I find that they often end up with ladies who get sick of dating the "bad boys."

It sounds like you're advocating for women to settle for the comfortable guy after they're done with the exciting guys. Or vice versa, that the "nice guys" really do have no chance until the women have gotten dating shitty men out of their systems. You are, right here, advocating FOR the "sexual strategy" your original post is against. You're saying it's still bad when men go all TRP, but it's fine when women do it.

You're essentially throwing out your earlier statement of: >Nobody deserves that kind of abuse.

And replacing it with: Nice guys deserve that kind of abuse, but will eventually be rewarded for putting up with it.

Mixed messages abound.

  • [-]
  • TywinDidNothinWrong
  • 12 Points
  • 18:08:18, 30 June

For me, this is one thing that the red pill gets right. If these "bad boys" are the ones getting laid, why not become a bad boy for a while? Women have every right to seek more stable men once they're done with "bad boys", but just the same men should have the right to be those "bad boys" until they're ready to settle down. The red pill (as fucked up as it can be) acts as a guide for men to increase their success with women. And frankly, most of the practical real-world advice they give actually works, at least compared to continuing to play Mr. Nice Guy.

It's not logical to stick with dating tactics that don't achieve the results you what you want. You can say that the red pill is the wrong path to achieve those results, but if something isn't working it's time to change your tactics.

EDIT: Grammar & additional thoughts

  • [-]
  • dpash
  • 1 Points
  • 18:27:46, 30 June

Because it misses the point of why "bad boys" are attractive to women in the first place. It's not that women (or anyone) want to be treated badly, but because the guys are confident and interesting, and those things are the things that attract people. "Nice guys" generally aren't confident. Being shitty to women is just cargo culting.

  • [-]
  • Unicornrows
  • 1 Points
  • 18:34:20, 30 June

I don't believe in the whole nice guy & bad boy dichotomy, and it bugs me when people bring those terms up. It distracts from reality and diverts a conversation. The terms are too vague. Personally I've gotten better results from being "nice" and turned off many girls by acting like a jerk. You can say girls are often more attracted to a good looking guy who is irresponsible and uninterested in a relationship, and who maybe is cocky and rude (aka funny even if it's mean), but you could say the exact same thing about guys: Guys often go for the party girl who is hot and who is irresponsible and uninterested in a relationship, and who maybe is cocky and rude (aka funny even it's mean).

  • [-]
  • DrQuaid
  • 1 Points
  • 18:38:55, 30 June

THIS is what is WRONG and why people go to the subreddit. Nice guys shouldn't have to fucking wait on girls to whore it out during their "prime".

In RP terms, this is called Alpha fucks, beta bucks. The alphas have ran through this girl, while the nice guy gets to pay for her after she's had her fun. Its BULLSHIT. If that's how you really think, why even be on this subreddit? why not just wait for the women to come to you? The lady realizes that she can get as much dick as she wants, then after the "bad boys" get done with her, and her looks, they go on to the guys who would support her, and shower her with compliments, putting her on a pedestal. Obviously they didn't want that when they could get better, but once they can't then they come back for you.

  • [-]
  • 40Watts
  • -15 Points
  • 17:32:36, 30 June

You clearly do not understand the red pill. Why do nice guys have to wait while the "bad boys" don't? Your advice to nice guys is just stick to being a nice guy and they will end up with a woman who has fucked a bunch of "bad boys". That's really shitty advice if you're just trying to get laid. Keep in mind that the red pill is mainly sexual strategy not relationship strategy. Relationships do involve compromise but getting laid is another ball game.

  • [-]
  • TalShar
  • 16 Points
  • 17:34:26, 30 June

It's like the Light Side and Dark Side of the force.

"Master Yoda, is the Dark Side stronger than the Light Side?"

"Stronger? No. Quicker, easier, more seductive."

Most things in life that are quicker, easier, more seductive, cut corners and lead to an inferior product.

  • [-]
  • LovelyThoughts
  • 2 Points
  • 17:49:03, 30 June

I love your post, and I love your reply to 40Watts. :) Every time I go to theredpill (morbid fascination) it makes me feel so sad for the bitter men who subscribe to it. I wish more of them would read what you've written and come to the light side where there are many nice humans just like them who want to be loved.

  • [-]
  • 40Watts
  • 0 Points
  • 17:46:57, 30 June

In a way, I can see what you're saying but I disagree. After I read the red pill, it became much easier for me to get dates, relationships or sex. Because of this I'm much more picky about a woman I get into a relationship with. If you're talking to multiple women, your standards for a girlfriend are much higher. You get more experience with women thus you find out what you really like in a woman. So I would say it leads to a superior product.

  • [-]
  • Sassinak
  • 1 Points
  • 18:02:53, 30 June

>So I would say it leads to a superior product

... for you, maybe. I think you missed the point of this entire post.

  • [-]
  • JamesTatumKirk
  • -1 Points
  • 18:10:09, 30 June

Because women are totally a 'product.'

  • [-]
  • Unicornrows
  • 1 Points
  • 18:31:54, 30 June

Reread this comment chain and you will see that OP was the first one to use the word product. And "product" could have meant the guy or the relationship or just an outcome in general.

  • [-]
  • Overgoats
  • 0 Points
  • 18:12:14, 30 June

You're defining "product" to mean the woman.

He's defining "product" to mean the relationship.

  • [-]
  • Unicornrows
  • 1 Points
  • 18:33:20, 30 June

"Product" could have meant the guy or the relationship or just an outcome in general.

  • [-]
  • HyacinthGirI
  • 5 Points
  • 17:53:12, 30 June

>the red pill is mainly sexual strateg

Ehh I wouldn't say that's true. From what I've seen, it's 50/50 between being purely about sex, and about relationships.

Regardless, "just" wanting sex doesn't mean that their abuses are somehow okay. Abuse is abuse, whether it happens once, or over years.

  • [-]
  • psyphungi
  • 3 Points
  • 17:47:44, 30 June

If all young guys learn is how to get laid, they're never going to learn about real relationships.

If they say "fine", I'll be a 50yo with a red Ferrari and a hot new chick every weekend, so be it. But they'll never have a meaningful relationship.

Personally, I think people (both genders) who go around treating sex or relationships like some power-game are, frankly, substandard.

  • [-]
  • untaken-username
  • 2 Points
  • 18:06:55, 30 June

Telling someone to be manipulative is pretty shitty advice, regardless of what your aims are.

  • [-]
  • dherik
  • 0 Points
  • 17:48:01, 30 June

If your goal is getting laid a relationship is not what you need, a prostitute is what you need. Relationships are more than about sex, yes a healthy sex life is a necessity for all parties in a relationship, but if that's the only goal, go get a hummer in an alley.

  • [-]
  • Hereletmegooglethat
  • 2 Points
  • 18:09:23, 30 June

Why not just get multiple FWB's instead?

  • [-]
  • Bananafarmers
  • 28 Points
  • 17:20:38, 30 June

I am a woman, and I just got out of a relationship where I was always left guessing, where I was always "almost" the girlfriend, where I couldn't get anything right. My emotions were always irrational, my worries were always unfounded- until, of course, I finally discovered the other "almost" girlfriends last week and finally broke it off literally yesterday.

Anyways, I am not really adding anything good to this, but I was sitting here feeling lonely, sorry for myself, and REALLY shitty about men in general (superficial amoral users)- and then I read this. Thank you for making me feel better about men, and helping me figure out how to take care of myself better in the next relationship. I won't settle for anything less than open, loving equality again. It is great to have a reminder that you guys exist.

  • [-]
  • TalShar
  • 4 Points
  • 17:41:21, 30 June

Very glad to help. I'm sorry you got tied up with a reprobate. But there are more good men out there than it may seem at times. We just take a bit longer to mature. =P

  • [-]
  • FactualPedanticReply
  • 1 Points
  • 18:34:03, 30 June

I'm so sorry you went through that - that really sucks! Don't forget to take some "me-time" before you go on to looking for another partner! You're a whole, complete, worthwhile, stable person, and you deserve to feel that way all on your own! Find your footing and re-center yourself!

  • [-]
  • GuiltySky
  • 3 Points
  • 17:58:05, 30 June

The most pernicious philosophies always start with solid ideas and then carry them to extravagant lengths.

Guys need to play hard-to-get too. Ask her out as soon as you're interested - don't try to be "friends first". Stick up for yourself. Don't be needy. Stay cool - don't act jealous. Don't reward behavior you don't want to see again. These are all solid pieces of relationship advice for men. Just try to stop short of arguing about evo-psych and musing about how much better things were when women couldn't vote.

I think one of the reasons that so many people are flocking to horrid sites like Chateau Heartiste and Return of Kings is that there's such a dearth of good relationship advice out there. People love to dish out non-advice to frustrated men - "be yourself!" and so forth. And woe to men who try to copy what they see on TV and movies... the audience of a movie might swoon when a character sends flowers to his love interest's work after their first date or sits up all night on her porch waiting for her to come home, but that sort of behavior would send them running for the hills in real life.

  • [-]
  • TalShar
  • 1 Points
  • 18:31:24, 30 June

"Balance in all things!"

  • [-]
  • faleboat
  • 13 Points
  • 17:33:39, 30 June

TL:DR - Don't be a dick, and don't put up with people who are.
Sound advice.

  • [-]
  • Griever114
  • 24 Points
  • 17:35:50, 30 June

While i agree with some points... i think at the bare minimum TRP gets men to realize when they are being abused/taken advantage of. As you said, NEITHER side should be taken advantage of.

However, many "bluepills" stay in relationships being strung along and manipulated (both men and women are guilty of this.)

I "took" TRP years ago when i kept wondering why i was being walked all over in dating/relationships. the key is you have to take it with a grain of salt.

The notion of, "if i dont get what i want, walk away" is actually REALLY healthy advice with one caveat:

"If im not getting what i want out of this relationship (so long as its reasonable), and my partner completely disagree's/we do not share the same viewpoints on core issues, you should walk away"

The key is, rather than just dropping people left and right with minimal dialogue, have the dialogue, if they refuse to change/compromise... walk. You are doing neither you or the other person any favors by sticking around.

  • [-]
  • I_FUCK_UP_RECIPES
  • 18 Points
  • 16:42:24, 30 June

There is an important caveat: the majority of the guys looking for redpill insight are not looking for relationships in the first place, they are looking for ways to get sex without any commitment at all.

I think marketing 'sexual strategy' as a way to improve your relationship is an inherently flawed choice on their part. It's about improving your single life. A good single life will lead to good relationships simply because you're not getting into them out of 'fear of being alone', and in turn will practice the traits you mentioned to ensure you're not in an abusive relationship yourself.

But it kind of sucks for a 'nice guy' to have to relegate himself to 'just needing a lot of patience' while waiting for girls to notice they have quality traits--better to develop traits that can also work for them as singles, in addition to those nice-guy traits.

  • [-]
  • SDMGLife
  • 8 Points
  • 18:06:51, 30 June

> the majority of the guys looking for redpill insight are not looking for relationships in the first place, they are looking for ways to get sex without any commitment at all.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with this. If you made a thread saying this on /r/sex you'd have a flock of people telling you how to do it and the best way to. Id actually wager to say that a sizable portion of red pill subscribers are there because they haven't had success with women and are just looking for something that works. I've been in their shoes and I've read the pick up books and say what you want but there's no doubt in my mind that those books and articles helped me to understand women better, to a degree. I agree with you though that the point of these books was sex and not meaningful relationships and the only way to achieve the latter is to have a meaningful relationship with yourself.

However confidence and loving yourself is not enough. There is still a level of finesse, skill and charisma required to attract women that simply "loving yourself" will not achieve. No sexism or generalization involved, it is a fact. That is what I personally took from reading the sub. I understand that women don't like the idea of being "tricked" into liking someone to be used, and they are correct in feeling that way, but I always roll my eyes when these Red Pill bashing threads come up, not because they are wrong (they are actually right because a large portion of RP posts are just sexist) but because I associate them with the time when I was young and still figuring women out, and just looking for some real help other than just being patronized or hearing old cliches like "just be yourself". I don't follow the red pill at all now but to say that it did not help me or people like me would be lying to myself.

I too agree OP's post is good but his comments are rubbing me the wrong way, saying that "nice guys" should just "wait it out"; that's without a doubt worse advice than the red pill, and statements like that are why people are attracted to PUA/Red Pill in the first place. Imagine having no success with women to the point of frustration and having someone tell you, "oh well champ, just do what you've been doing and maybe you'll luck into some woman who's ready to settle down someday".

  • [-]
  • I_FUCK_UP_RECIPES
  • 2 Points
  • 18:16:00, 30 June

I definitely think we're on the same page.

  • [-]
  • TalShar
  • 6 Points
  • 16:46:38, 30 June

Very valid point. Obviously if you're just looking for sex, you're not going to get a healthy relationship.

However, I feel like Red Pill pulls in a lot of hurting guys who are genuinely nice (Not "Nice Guys(R)") and who just want to get into a healthy relationship. I feel like it dupes them into thinking that the only healthy relationship is one that has a submissive woman and a domineering man.

I remember a point in time when I would've been receptive to that idea if I'd heard it. Glad I got through that without falling into that thinking.

  • [-]
  • josephfromlondon
  • 4 Points
  • 17:49:17, 30 June

Whilst it's true that 'if you're just looking for sex, you're not going to get a healthy relationship', it's important to remember that it's both possible to be very promiscuous and to be kind and considerate to your partners. Equally, it's very possible to be promiscuous whilst not being a douchebag.

  • [-]
  • frozenwalkway
  • 1 Points
  • 18:12:04, 30 June

This is something I wanted to touch on. Just assuming 2 people who are in a relationship just for sex with each other is going to wind up as an unhealthy relationship, I feel is missing some nuance perceptions of modern dating. A good post, but it does take a bias towards the only healthy relationship is a loving one. There are all kinds of people out there. And some are perfect for each other, even when they aren't looking for love.

  • [-]
  • I_FUCK_UP_RECIPES
  • 7 Points
  • 16:47:23, 30 June

> I feel like it dupes them into thinking that the only healthy relationship is one that has a submissive woman and a domineering man.

definitely agreed.

  • [-]
  • LadyTigerSnake
  • 11 Points
  • 17:19:12, 30 June

That shit messes with my head every time, I don't know why I look at that ugly train wreck. It's not good for anyone that wants to be a kind, loving person with healthy relationships with women. Thank you for bringing this nonsense to light, you're one of the good ones.

  • [-]
  • bnelson76
  • 3 Points
  • 17:57:21, 30 June

I'm a bit different and it's awesome. I don't "need" sex. I was single and completely dateless for 4 Years (age 28-32). It really didn't bother me at all. I just focused my attention and drive elsewhere. I never feel the need to do anything i don't want to do just to get laid. I feel sorry for people who feel enslaved to their own sexual desire. I'm in a committed relationship now but we don't play sex stategy B. S. If I'm horny, I just tell her, "I'm gonna have sex now, you in or out?" If she wants it, fine; if not I can handle myself (literally).

  • [-]
  • Parryandrepost
  • 2 Points
  • 17:59:41, 30 June

That final line was a rather good conclusion. Very nice explication.

  • [-]
  • HipsterWeasel
  • 1 Points
  • 18:00:18, 30 June

This. A thousand times this. Every time I'm with a group of people and they talk about the other sex as if it is some kind of object I weep a little bit inside. Being in an honest open relationship is one of the most wonderful things in the world, but it takes two to tango. Expecting anything else is childish/naive.

  • [-]
  • Synovexh001
  • 3 Points
  • 18:08:27, 30 June

That was beautiful. I'm a bitter, angry loner who spent his life trying to be a woman's ideal mate, and spent my youth getting rejected and hearing guys brag about how much sex they get by treating women like garbage. It makes me feel like an idiot for trying to be respectful and honest and feminist, but I know that the ultimate goal is a happy, healthy relationship, which is something even the most masterful womanizers and brilliant pickup artists will forever be denied by their toxic mentality. Success won't come easy, but thank you for the reminder that at least I'm not one of these pseudo-successes that have already failed.

  • [-]
  • 4gitsandshiggles
  • 3 Points
  • 18:14:44, 30 June

Great post, it needed to be said. Those types of people are toxic and they force their ideology on others because they're so angry at life. I agree wholeheartedly with every point you made. Well done.

  • [-]
  • LeyfLeyf
  • 2 Points
  • 18:15:20, 30 June

Thank you so much for posting this. Well written.

  • [-]
  • armedburrito
  • 1 Points
  • 18:33:59, 30 June

But but but, being an emotionally abusive dickbag is so much easier than being a real alpha male and being honest about intent.

Seriously, theredpill is just the evolution of high school nerds who at first were too shy to get laid and are now too bitter/jaded to get a girl the normal way. As a sexual strategy it's ok for cheap hookups, I guess. I just don't understand why you would want a long term relationship based on those premises.

If you emotionally abuse your SO so they stay with you, there's probably a good reason for that. It's because you're a piece of shit. Maybe make yourself a more interesting person and they will want to stay with you because you're awesome, instead of because they feel they have no options. Side bonus, you get to be awesome regardless of whether they stick around.

  • [-]
  • rfry11
  • 1 Points
  • 18:34:02, 30 June

Wow, thank you so much for writing this.

> Tell them "This hurts me when you do that." If they care about you, they'll take action to prevent causing you pain. ...And if you don't have that in your SO, you either need to get to that point or get out. There are many, many worse things than being single. Don't view your time as being single as a sexless desert.

These words are incredibly right on. I feel that I am just now starting to get to this point of really knowing what love is and isn't, along with being okay with being single.

  • [-]
  • elevul
  • 1 Points
  • 18:34:41, 30 June

>And the reason she stays is the same reason Blue Pill guys stay in their relationships: They don't want to be alone.

This is where your whole argument breaks down: women have ZERO difficulty in finding another cock to ride. If she's staying it's because she WANTS to stay, not because she doesn't have other choices.

  • [-]
  • SirMawd
  • 9 Points
  • 16:35:24, 30 June

Well said. I feel exactly the same about being 'killed on the inside' reading some of the stuff on there. Some of the threads on redpill are actually useful and GENUINELY try to help people, but a lot of the shit on there is very depressing and negative which is why I unsubscribed recently. I'd say a good 90% of it just seems like a place for depressed/angry/frustrated men go to vent about their shitty lives/situation and instead of changing their situation, they KEEP complaining and hating.

To the 10% of actually useful advice/threads on there, kudos! But as a whole, the sub is negative and not worth the time.

  • [-]
  • TalShar
  • 6 Points
  • 16:38:49, 30 June

Sometimes venting can be helpful, but when it's mixed in with advice from people who are clearly frustrated and resentful, it tends to do more harm than good. It's got a "perfect storm" scenario of wounded guys looking to make the hurt stop, and resentful guys who want to turn it back on the women that hurt them.

Hurt people hurt people. A sad fact of life.

  • [-]
  • TheSicilianDude
  • 3 Points
  • 18:07:26, 30 June

I love this post so fucking much. There is a big difference between improving yourself and making yourself more desirable to women, and taking out your frustrations with women ON them as a whole. Maybe some of TRP's philosophy "works," but I've always seen it as overcompensating. Some women treat you wrong, so you see all women as the same, sharing these negative qualities, so you resort to emotional abuse to "prove yourself."

Such a broken and toxic way to go through life. Any lifestyle that is overwhelmingly negative like that will never make one happy.

  • [-]
  • meshosh
  • 10 Points
  • 17:38:50, 30 June

You know, your heart is in the right place. But you are very wrong about most of what you said.

I doubt I'm going to change your, or anyone's opinion. Because most people just hate, hate, hate being challenged about some of these ideas.

You see, TRP is amoral. While you can indeed use it to manipulate people and make them miserable (including yourself), you can also use it to greatly improve a relationship in a very healthy way. The same could be said about sales techniques, management theories, etc. There is always a way in which people can use a strategy to hurt others, but it's worth knowing the strategy anyway, and let people choose what they want to use them. Or when they are used against them.

I'm not going to explain it here. You can find it all there if you really want. You just have to be able to see past the offensive lingo, and look for posts or blogs where people talk 'normal'. I recommenced 'the rational male' if you want to start, or 'The Married Man Sex Life Primer'.

All I can say is that I've improved my own marriage (and my work) greatly, just by applying a very little bit of TRP. I don't crush my wife's emotions, I don't manipulate her, and I don't ignore her feelings. On the contrary, now I can see where most of her feelings come from and how to cope with them. I can also see my own emotions better, and I realize now that they are just as valid as hers. I am a much better man than I was before, and she is the one reaping the benefits of having a better husband.

  • [-]
  • the_Milkweed
  • 1 Points
  • 18:19:50, 30 June

Finally someone without herd mentality!

  • [-]
  • TalShar
  • 3 Points
  • 17:57:55, 30 June

"Education without values, as useful as it is, seems rather to make man a more clever devil."

Your criticism is welcome, but I will argue my own point as well.

Some of the material in TRP can be useful to understanding your spouse and improving your relationship. However using it to intentionally manipulate them is amoral in my opinion, as well as counterproductive.

Obviously balance in all things is a must. Some merit can be found in some of the TRP ideas. However a lot of people, in their wounded state, are all too willing to use that power to dole out the same punishment they've received. And that's never productive.

  • [-]
  • meshosh
  • 1 Points
  • 18:39:19, 30 June

> Some of the material in TRP can be useful to understanding your spouse and improving your relationship. However using it to intentionally manipulate them is amoral in my opinion, as well as counterproductive.

The word here is imoral. amoral is what TRP really is. It's just a bunch of information that explain how men and women (tend to) behave. How people use that information is up to them. And I'm not actually arguing that point.

All I'm saying is that branding an entire community or philosophy as 'evil' because some of it can be used in a way you disagree with is wrong.

> However a lot of people, in their wounded state, are all too willing to use that power to dole out the same punishment they've received.

Unfortunately, this is true. But can you really blame them? If one has suffered their entire life because most of what they were taught is not only wrong, but made their life miserable, are they really all that bad if they get bitter enough to hurt others as well?

Could it be that 'blue pill' philosophy can also be just as damaging to some people, but we are all so very used to it that most of us can't even notice anymore?

  • [-]
  • Bacongineer
  • 1 Points
  • 18:30:39, 30 June

Thanks for bringing some common sense to an exaggerated post.

TRP has greatly improved my quality of life and how I see myself, but still some people seem determined that TRP is the den of hatred of this world. Sure there are some "extremists", but that's how it is everywhere.

  • [-]
  • Tank-_-
  • 5 Points
  • 17:43:08, 30 June

Hey man,

Wonderful write up.

I would like to add that /r/TheRedPill has many things wrong with the point they make, they do help nice guys in the sense that they need to take control of their dating life. That is one of the few things I learned there. Blue pill guys seem to lie down, get taken advantage of, and give up while dating. That was my take on it. Since discovering it (TRP) I realized that I never took control of the (dating) opportunities that presented themselves to me.

What I dislike about TRP, is the fact that they encourage domination over the relationship. Where nice guys become bad boys What TRP needs to represent is everything that EMSK has been writing about though out its existence. Where nice guys and bad boys become gentlemen where they are confident, honorable, respectable, and strong. Where boys discover how to be men. It has been warped from being a man and being someone who dominates and ruins women and relationships.

The matter of the fact is no matter how you are as a person. You should strive to see women, especially your SO, as equals. Do not let women take advantage of you nor you them. Be a man.

And that is my two cents.

  • [-]
  • TalShar
  • 3 Points
  • 17:48:28, 30 June

This is why I added my third edit. There is some good advice in /r/TheRedPill buried underneath all the misogyny and resentment. It's just an unfortunate part of human nature that when we're hurting, we tend to want to lash out at someone else instead of letting our wound heal and trying not to cause any ourselves.

Never lie down. Never just "take it." But make sure you don't give it, either, and remember that, while not all things are, some things are worth compromising over. That which will not bend at all will surely break.

And you're exactly right. Strength, not subjugation.

  • [-]
  • LupusMechanicus
  • 5 Points
  • 17:48:47, 30 June

This is the kind of post that this subreddit should truly be about. Some of the posts in this sub are kinda superficial or try to lump all males as one type of person, but your post was insightful and good advice for everyone.

  • [-]
  • JustSayinSM86
  • 2 Points
  • 17:48:42, 30 June

I jsut need to get this out there, because I was so astonished. I stumbled across the Dead Bedrooms subreddit by hitting the random subreddit and found a guy whose 1 year postpartum, breasfeeding wife was struggling to satisfy him sexually.

Ultimately, he had formed an ultimatum which he was not going to tell her about and was planning to get a vasectomy behind her back in 90 days if she didn't meet the conditions.

I said my piece, ignored the resulting orangereds, but the other comment when I commented was relatively supportive of him. I wanted to cry. It's such an awful mentality. And it was exactly this.

I wish he was facebook acquaintance, I'd warn his wife.

You can't be rude on that subreddit, but I wish I'd said "Don't worry, you'l lbe down to no sex soon enough."

Anyway, reading this made me cry for those women, that woman and the men who are raised to think this is okay.

  • [-]
  • Hereletmegooglethat
  • 1 Points
  • 18:18:55, 30 June

Hey just think you should know that guy probably has nothing to do with redpill. That guy sounds very passive aggressive, which is exactly the "Nice guy" traits that TRP speaks up against. So the guy might be a dick I doubt him being a dick is because he has taken the red pill.

  • [-]
  • poisonlacedredpill
  • 3 Points
  • 17:41:04, 30 June

Right on man!

  • [-]
  • SrewolfA
  • 2 Points
  • 17:51:22, 30 June

My girlfriend would fuck me up if I tried RedPill tactics. That said, we have a "Purple Pill" relationship where we always meet in the middle and get what we want. If a guy is really hell-bent on getting sex, just freaking compliment her, all the time.

I was at a wedding this past Friday with her and told her she was the most beautiful girl there, that was a guaranteed sex pass that night. I make a point to do it unexpectedly and frequently. I've been with her happily for almost three years now.

This method has worked in the past with my previous relationships as well, its really not that far-fetched or complex. Just fucking compliment and treat your SO with respect and you will get what you want.

  • [-]
  • theredpill101
  • 1 Points
  • 17:53:27, 30 June

Spot on, quite simply.

There are aspects to The Red Pill which embody everything you have written, and a great deal of bitterness surrounds them. Humans can be broken like animals - that's a fact. But, as no one is clamoring to work at Guantanamo or Abu Ghraib, I assume it's a rather unpleasant thing to do.

And despite the bitterness many men have, hurting one woman to get back at a past flame is delusional and outrageous.

The aspects to TRP that make sense - that make the most sense - are those that focus on self-improvement. The ones that encourage men to become better humans, and in so doing attract a mate. I feel like those topics are frequently overlooked (though I won't gripe, as they can be few and far between), despite their value.

Though humans continue to pair-bond, we have left the age of cavemen long behind. We no longer treat each other as property, we don't club each other over the head to take what we want. We have grown from that, and a desire for a reversion to the previous is a delusion indeed.

  • [-]
  • TheIcelander
  • 1 Points
  • 18:37:34, 30 June

There's no evidence that pre-agricultural people pair bonded. Gender relations in modern hunter-gatherers are equal and generally promiscuous.

  • [-]
  • Paradigm6790
  • 3 Points
  • 17:38:47, 30 June

I didn't know the red pill thing existed, but it's, in it's essence, the same Tucker Max bullshit that was popular a few years ago. Maybe it still is, I've since stopped caring.

It all comes down to the "it's only abuse if it's happening to me" mentality, probably driven by a Dunning-Kruger effect based around relationships.

There is a simple formula to be successful with the other gender:

  1. Be confident
  2. Be caring. Truely caring, not that obnoxious, manipulative white-knight-friend-zone vitriol.
  3. Be interested in a person beyond a set goal
  4. Realize that people are entitled to like you or not. It's their life just as much as yours. What gives you the ability to decide whether or not their choice is good or bad? Think of the shoe on the other foot.

The simplest way to "get the girl/guy" is so respect them and respect yourself. At the very least, if it doesn't work out, your mentality will be breeding decent human beings, not the filth spawning in /r/RedPill.

  • [-]
  • psyphungi
  • 1 Points
  • 17:50:23, 30 June

Might be point 2 about "caring" but TRP don't seem keen on Tucker Max

http://www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/search?q=tucker+max&restrict_sr=on

Mostly downvoted.

  • [-]
  • Adroitly_Sinister
  • 1 Points
  • 18:02:07, 30 June

Upvote for Dunning-Kruger reference.

  • [-]
  • TalShar
  • 1 Points
  • 17:58:57, 30 June

> Be caring. Truely caring, not that obnoxious, manipulative white-knight-friend-zone vitriol.

That's where guys miss it, I think. They just try to fit into roles and then expect the sex and/or relationship society teaches them is their right.

  • [-]
  • Paradigm6790
  • 1 Points
  • 18:03:58, 30 June

What I said is fairly accessible and mostly circle-jerk material, but it does need to be said because that really is all there is to it. That and common interests. I am amazed at some people's ideal women.

Like, if you want a girl with a surfer body, a tan and a bit of a wild-side move to California, make some friends who like to party and buy a surf board, don't just sit on your ass and wish.

  • [-]
  • TalShar
  • 0 Points
  • 18:18:52, 30 June

Well put.

  • [-]
  • mscime
  • 2 Points
  • 17:35:29, 30 June

This is great and I completely agree, although there is more to the red pill than just sexual strategy. The sexual strategy part is what attracts most men because, well.. they want to get laid. The part that changed the way I think though, was the part about why women and men act the way they do in relationships and dating which according to the red pill philosophy is completely biological. I can go in to more detail if you would like. It makes sense to me, at least more than most other things on dating and relationships do. I still respect women and men equally, I am just no longer as confused when it comes to dating and relationships. The sexual strategy part of the red pill philosophy just seems more like dating guidebook for guys who don't know how to date or treat women.

  • [-]
  • TalShar
  • 1 Points
  • 18:03:49, 30 June

See my Edit 3. I agree with you. A trick to having a good relationship is realizing how much of your own and your SO's behavior is biological and agreeing to work together to transcend that and replace it with something more rational and lasting where possible. Working together being the key there, not puppeteering your SO like some TRPers advocate.

  • [-]
  • mscime
  • 2 Points
  • 18:09:38, 30 June

Yes exactly, I never really understood that whole part of it. It is basically a bunch of men that are angry with women and want to "get them back" or whatever because they are too immature to deal with their own problems in a logical healthy way.

  • [-]
  • saharizona
  • -4 Points
  • 17:25:10, 30 June

r/theredpill is for insecure weak bitches that are the center of their own universe. because they got their feelings hurt a few times, everyone is out to get them.

  • [-]
  • Mr_Zarika
  • 1 Points
  • 18:30:25, 30 June

I browse /r/TheRedPill and I'd like to think I'm not an insecure weak bitch...

I read the sub to take the good philosophies they share, and to ignore the bad stuff. I have my own set of morals, and there are some things in TRP that resonate with me. Other things do not.

One thing I don't do, is feel the need to marginalize a group and label them with my insults. You don't know any of us, and you certainly don't know our motivations.

In the words of Ygritte, "You know nothing."

  • [-]
  • wickedstag
  • 3 Points
  • 17:47:55, 30 June

Well obviously you are the go to authority on weak bitches.

  • [-]
  • saharizona
  • -3 Points
  • 18:17:17, 30 June

lol, jump and defend your little butt-hurt, no-pussy getting subreddit

  • [-]
  • RAWRcats
  • 1 Points
  • 18:34:28, 30 June

If that's the way you think about the whole issue you're as bad as the people who manipulate their partners emotions to get their own way.

  • [-]
  • StroubleAnTrife
  • 1 Points
  • 17:50:21, 30 June

Innit

  • [-]
  • IamSeth
  • -4 Points
  • 17:44:02, 30 June

This needs upvotes.

  • [-]
  • Reanimationed
  • 2 Points
  • 16:38:51, 30 June

Excellent Excellent Excellent

  • [-]
  • DocWats
  • 1 Points
  • 17:49:16, 30 June

You have it spot on. Good job dude, and if not dude sorry for assuming.

  • [-]
  • kidslapper
  • 1 Points
  • 17:50:51, 30 June

Excellent post! Thank you!

  • [-]
  • Inigo93
  • 2 Points
  • 17:53:15, 30 June

Good though the above comments may be, they assume an underlying premise that the guy actually wants a relationship as opposed to simply wanting a steady supply of pussy.

  • [-]
  • Shoelucky
  • 1 Points
  • 17:56:35, 30 June

It's good to know there are people out there who get it. I really enjoyed reading that and I hope your words have brought a bit of clarity to those who just needed a push in the right direction. Thanks man.

  • [-]
  • reformingfeature
  • 1 Points
  • 17:59:34, 30 June

If you have problems with women read "No more Mr. Nice Guy" by Robert A. Glover. You can think that /r/seduction is creepy, thats fine, but read that book. It's among the best books for a happy life.

  • [-]
  • Mercury-7
  • 2 Points
  • 18:05:34, 30 June

I think one of the worst things about TRP is that it's primarily geared towards men at a disadvantage. What I mean by that is that these men are usually just came out of a bitter divorce, or are in a relationship where the sex life is nonexistent, or young adults that never really had a girl friend. TRP targets these groups (from what I've seen) by offering that they can become the ultimate man and that all of their problems will cease to exist. TRP also is great with quieting dissent through ad hominems, usually to the form that anyone who is against this "philosophy" is a "feminazi", "hamster",and if they are a man they are a "beta".
All of this seems to have a striking parallel to how racist hate groups operate; 1. target the socially disadvantage (usually poor white men who recently lost their job, often times to migrant workers, or young white teenagers who suffer bullying, etc.) 2a. tell them that there's more to this, usually in a conspiracy format (the Jews are causing your pain, TRP would say that women are purposely causing you to be "incel" a word they made up which means involuntary celibate. etc.), 2b. also tell them that this goes deeper and that there is a systimatic oppression that is being ignored claim to be the "good guys" (notice that they call it White Rights, the term implies that whites are at a social disadvantage just because they are white, which in my opinion is not really true in most cases) 3. offer them a way to feel powerful (offer them a place in the militant style group, tell them "info" that sheeple don't know, etc.), 4. quite dissent by placing the dissenters through ad hominems (the people who disagree with the message of the racists are "race traitors", "zionists", "shills", etc.).

  • [-]
  • TalShar
  • 1 Points
  • 18:16:35, 30 June

Hurt people hurt people. Our reflex to pain is to cause more, not to learn and move on stronger. TRP might target those people, but you have to remember that on some level, they're probably those people themselves.

Most aggressors were victims themselves at one point. Pain begets pain.

  • [-]
  • Mercury-7
  • 1 Points
  • 18:21:09, 30 June

I didn't mean to claim that they weren't people, that wasn't my point nor my intention. What I wanted to showcase was the parallel between them and racist hate groups. Because that is what TRP ultimately becomes, a hate group, but towards women.

  • [-]
  • cpride1
  • 0 Points
  • 18:06:29, 30 June

tdlr?

  • [-]
  • TalShar
  • 1 Points
  • 18:13:19, 30 June

TL;DR: It's unfair that men suffer from sexual strategy, but that doesn't make it okay to flip it and make women suffer instead. No one deserves to be emotionally abused.

I put that in my Edit 2. :)

  • [-]
  • CountVonVague
  • 2 Points
  • 18:07:25, 30 June

fantastic.

  • [-]
  • gdrcigar
  • 0 Points
  • 18:08:22, 30 June

Thanks for the info man, you make some really good points. In many cases, it may seem like the whole point of TRP is to turn women's emotional abuse tactics against them. However, at the heart of Redpill, I'd argue this is not the case. I think this paragraph from "The Misandry Bubble" the top required reading on the Redpill sub, sums up the true philosophy quite well:

>For anyone seeking advice on the Venusian Arts, there is one rule you must never break. I believe it is of paramount importance that the knowledge be used ethically, and with the objective of creating mutually satisfying relationships with women. It is not moral to mistreat women, even if they have done the same to countless men. We, as men, have to take the high road even if women are not, and this is my firm belief. Nice guys can finish first if they have Game.

I'm not a frequent user of TRP, nor do I really practice their methods, but I've been reading their stuff because it interests me, and I honestly think that the so-called "red pill men" you're describing simply don't get the heart of the philosophy, and only seek to abuse the psychology.

  • [-]
  • Poonslayerjunior
  • 2 Points
  • 18:10:11, 30 June

This is the type of stuff this sub needs, thank you for writing this. This is one of the most eye opening relationship-related things I ever read

  • [-]
  • Dynam2012
  • 2 Points
  • 18:12:03, 30 June

I've never understood the red pill community. It has always struck me as incredibly stupid. It assumes, as a given, that all men want sex with women. That's our highest priority, and we should do everything in our power to get it. But that just isn't the case. One, gay men exist... I don't know where they fall in this dichotomy of a red pill/blue pill world and two, asexual men or men who simply have a low enough sex drive where sex just simply isn't what they're looking for in a relationship also exist. I don't know where those men land in this red pill/blue pill world either. Postulating that a man might be asexual or have low sex drive due to being beaten down by women is purely conjecture and it employs a confirmation bias. Men might exist where that's the case, but it certainly isn't the case for all men. Some men simply don't have that drive in them. And that is ok. The red pill community seems to think that it's a bad thing to not want sex because it's indicative of weakness or something, and stating that your sex drive is low is a lie you tell yourself due to the fact that you let women control you. It's absurd.

I think it's all asinine just due to those two points, let alone all of the MASSIVE problems it generates in terms of having healthy romantic relationships with women or just having healthy relationships in general, and I think any guy who thoroughly and truly believes in and practices what The Red Pill community states is truly in need of help. Going through life with the mentality that there's a sort of power struggle over something as trivial as sex and the reward from that power struggle is the only true thing to go through life for has to be a sad, unhappy existence.

  • [-]
  • Yurilovescats
  • 2 Points
  • 18:12:53, 30 June

Top Quality post. 100% agreed.

  • [-]
  • yhelothere
  • 0 Points
  • 18:13:55, 30 June

Update: woman want sex too

  • [-]
  • Doofe_N7
  • 2 Points
  • 18:15:57, 30 June

I really want to add onto this by saying that what everyone, both men and women, need to do is simply do their best to be attractive and interesting individuals, doing what they find fun (as opposed to what they think will attract members of the opposite sex) while striving to make others genuinely happy. Everything else will fall into place and you'll almost certainly end up meeting someone like you with whom you'll have mutual attraction. Man and up and accept the fact that not everyone is meant to find a hot, fit, blonde sex goddess as their soulmate.

tl;dr: Just stop trying so goddamn hard and stop trying to be someone you're clearly not.

  • [-]
  • throwawayyourballs
  • 1 Points
  • 18:16:17, 30 June

Redpill boasts a bunch of elitist bullshit mostly. Great you fucked a woman that you deemed to be representative of the number 10. You don't really know her, but because you need to fuck, you go for it, dive in full boar. Everyone is constantly evolving, how do you slap a number rating on a human and leave it at that. I think the 10 scale for rating women is asinine.

  • [-]
  • paranoid_trip
  • 1 Points
  • 18:20:29, 30 June

Yeah, but then today I saw an okc profile that said filling up the profile didn't matter if the person had a pretty face. The profile was indeed sparsely filled, and she did have a pretty face and yes I did send her a message. I am hoping I get a reply, so that I piss the fuck off of her. Made my blood boil just reading that shit she wrote. Other females are pretty chill though, at least they don't mention it on their profile.

  • [-]
  • AmonarthEUNE
  • 1 Points
  • 18:23:59, 30 June

No tldr.

  • [-]
  • anonomousrex
  • 1 Points
  • 18:27:02, 30 June

Just want to say that you can be single and not live in a sexless desert. Knowing what you want and being honest about it in a bold way while being able to figure out what others want does wonders. And if you're living honestly you're going to be growing no matter what you do.

Know what you want, communicate it and respect others. It will make your life incredible.

  • [-]
  • nadrewod
  • 1 Points
  • 18:27:48, 30 June

Ah, so the "Red Pill" strategy has a risk/reward system similar to the Prisoner's Dilemma game theory, where, like Global Thermonuclear War, the only winning move is not to play.

  • [-]
  • autowikibot
  • 1 Points
  • 18:28:25, 30 June
	
	

	

Prisoner's dilemma:


>

>The prisoners' dilemma is a canonical example of a game analyzed in game theory that shows why two purely "rational" individuals might not cooperate, even if it appears that it is in their best interests [citation needed] to do so. It was originally framed by Merrill Flood and Melvin Dresher working at RAND in 1950. Albert W. Tucker formalized the game with prison sentence rewards and gave it the name "prisoner's dilemma" (Poundstone, 1992), presenting it as follows:

>>Two members of a criminal gang are arrested and imprisoned. Each prisoner is in solitary confinement with no means of speaking to or exchanging messages with the other. The police admit they don't have enough evidence to convict the pair on the principal charge. They plan to sentence both to a year in prison on a lesser charge. Simultaneously, the police offer each prisoner a Faustian bargain. Each prisoner is given the opportunity either to betray the other, by testifying that the other committed the crime, or to cooperate with the other by remaining silent. Here's how it goes:

>

>* If A and B both betray the other, each of them serves 2 years in prison

>* If A betrays B but B remains silent, A will be set free and B will serve 3 years in prison (and vice versa)

>* If A and B both remain silent, both of them will only serve 1 year in prison (on the lesser charge)

>It is implied that the prisoners will have no opportunity to reward or punish their partner other than the prison sentences they get, and that their decision will not affect their reputation in the future. Because betraying a partner offers a greater reward than cooperating with them, all purely rational self-interested prisoners would betray the other, and so the only possible outcome for two purely rational prisoners is for them to betray each other. The interesting part of this result is that pursuing individual reward logically leads both of the prisoners to betray, when they would get a better reward if they both cooperated. In reality, humans display a systematic bias towards cooperative behavior in this and similar games, much more so than predicted by simple models of "rational" self-interested action. A model based on a different kind of rationality, where people forecast how the game would be played if they formed coalitions and then they maximize their forecasts, has been shown to make better predictions of the rate of cooperation in this and similar games given only the payoffs of the game.

>There is also an extended "iterated" version of the game, where the classic game is played over and over between the same prisoners, and consequently, both prisoners continuously have an opportunity to penalize the other for previous decisions. If the number of times the game will be played is known to the players, then (by backward induction) two classically rational players will betray each other repeatedly, for the same reasons as the single shot variant. In an infinite or unknown length game there is no fixed optimum strategy, and Prisoner's Dilemma tournaments have been held to compete and test algorithms.

>The prisoner's dilemma game can be used as a model for many real world situations involving cooperative behaviour. In casual usage, the label "prisoner's dilemma" may be applied to situations not strictly matching the formal criteria of the classic or iterative games: for instance, those in which two entities could gain important benefits from cooperating or suffer from the failure to do so, but find it merely difficult or expensive, not necessarily impossible, to coordinate their activities to achieve cooperation.

>====

>Image ^(i)


^Interesting: ^The ^Prisoner's ^Dilemma ^| ^The ^Prisoner's ^Dilemma ^(play) ^| ^Prisoner's ^Dilemma ^(novel) ^| ^Prisoner's ^Dilemma ^(Person ^of ^Interest)

^Parent ^commenter ^can [^toggle ^NSFW](http://www.np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=autowikibot&subject=AutoWikibot NSFW toggle&message=%2Btoggle-nsfw+cil0l00) ^or [^delete](http://www.np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=autowikibot&subject=AutoWikibot Deletion&message=%2Bdelete+cil0l00)^. ^Will ^also ^delete ^on ^comment ^score ^of ^-1 ^or ^less. ^| ^(FAQs) ^| ^Mods ^| ^Magic ^Words

  • [-]
  • IamSeth
  • 1 Points
  • 18:36:18, 30 June

/r/iamverysmart

  • [-]
  • 3clipse
  • 1 Points
  • 18:28:38, 30 June

Great writeup. And, something I think a lot of people forget - most women don't like the typical sexual strategy model presented by society, either. They don't want to be treated like a commodity or have sex be a prize to be "won" by the man. Hell, most women want to have sex with their partners (but they're told not to for some bullshit societal reason).

So like you say, the only way to actually win this game is for both men and women to flip society off and throw a molotov into the building while speeding away to boink happily ever after.

  • [-]
  • Severusse
  • 1 Points
  • 18:29:18, 30 June

Excellent write up OP, this is certainly EMSK worthy.

  • [-]
  • hornwalker
  • 1 Points
  • 18:29:51, 30 June

What the Red Pillers don't understand is that a healthy relationship elevates both people beyond what they can be by themselves, but this isn't possible in the stupid way of living the Red Pill offers. It's a shallow way to live that doesn't really help anyone because you can get all the good things the Red Pill people want in a healthy relationship as well.

Good post OP.

  • [-]
  • internationalBurner
  • 1 Points
  • 18:31:45, 30 June

"There is one thing that Red Pill has right. Sexual strategy sucks. But the solution isn't getting better at it than your SO is. The solution is agreeing with one another that you're not going to play the game. If a game is going to always suck for one player, and both players care about one another, they're going to find a better game to play."

Amen^^

  • [-]
  • BentAxel
  • 1 Points
  • 18:33:45, 30 June

Personally, I do not know how someone could get dragged into that crap? I'm not saying I have never been manipulated, get burned once, maybe twice you learn to say fuck it and move on. Your time is only worth those that value it.

  • [-]
  • TalShar
  • 1 Points
  • 18:37:58, 30 June

It's like a drug. Sometimes people don't know there's another way. It's easier to give up and keep doing what you're doing than build a new strategy and reinvent yourself.

  • [-]
  • mshit
  • 1 Points
  • 18:35:48, 30 June

Cracked also did a good write-up on the whole MRA/RedPill nonsense. tl;dr they are a cult who prey on vulnerable guys.

http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-uncomfortable-truths-behind-mens-rights-movement/

  • [-]
  • RainbowBlast
  • 1 Points
  • 18:36:07, 30 June

The fact that this had to be written is disgusting. The fact that you wrote it, however, is really quite amazing. Well said. Thanks.

  • [-]
  • DrAstralis
  • 1 Points
  • 18:36:37, 30 June

Do these RedPill idiots realize that the very fact they cannot have a relationship with an equal and can only handle a subservient slave is the exact opposite of being masculine? They're so insecure in themselves that the idea of an equal threatens their very core. How pathetic is that?

  • [-]
  • IAMARainbowAMA
  • 1 Points
  • 18:36:40, 30 June

Someone I used to know became a RedPill... person...

It makes my heart absolutely break. He was never someone I was really close too. He ended up marrying my best friend and having a child with her. I always thought he was kind of a loser, he was always trying to get her to conform to his ideas of what he wanted in life and was so incredibly high on weed all of the time that he never had anything to add to any conversation or anything.

His wife ended up going off the rails and getting addicted to pills and abandoned him and their child. He got full custody of the baby and now he is a full blown True Believer in RedPill. It absolutely breaks my heart that his daughter, who I loved more than anything, will now be raised by someone who believes and spouts the types of completely repulsive ideas about women that he does.

  • [-]
  • Benalow
  • 1 Points
  • 18:37:28, 30 June

While I don't Sub to the whole RedPill philosophy, I think this hits a really good point on why people start to. Being emotionally abused sucks, but I feel people get to the point where they are done being hurt and want to start dealing the same medicine that they've been consuming. But, it only continues the cycle of shit that is TheRedPill. I think you've brought up a point that's really important, and even if people don't think they act like this, it's never a bad idea to have a self dialog to make sure we aren't acting like that. Quality post OP, today you likely changed peoples opinions, and perhaps saved a few relationships!

  • [-]
  • robesta
  • 1 Points
  • 18:37:55, 30 June

I follow red pill and use its strategy in my current LTR. Honestly, I wasn't expecting such a good writeup. Nice job OP.

That said, here's my response:

If you go to /r/relationships, a common refrain is: the person less invested in the relationship has the power. I think this is non-controversial. /r/theredpill has shown me, I never need to be more invested than my partner. I control my own life and the terms in which I allow others to be a part of it.

That being said, because I have the power, I can abuse it. With great power comes great responsibility. My LTR and I are in the most fulfilling relationship either of us have ever had. I don't take any of the abuse (both emotionally and physically) I took in previous relationships. I prioritize my own needs. I understand her impulses on a level I never thought possible. The feminine mystique is gone. I can read her like a book.

Is the power imbalance bad? If you asked her who wore the pants she'd say "Robesta does". If you asked her if that made he happy, she'd say, "absolutely". As for myself, I am much more fulfilled as a man by leading and guiding the direction of our relationship. She makes her needs be known, and I choose to accommodate them or tell her why not. She's from another country where feminism and girl power did not dominate her upbringing.

50 years ago, the dynamic we have was the norm. Women did not wear the pants like the normal marriage today. Many men and women were much happier with this arrangement, even tho it may not be redditor PC in a relationship.

TL;DR- Because of /r/theredpill I will never be a victim in a relationship again. Choosing whether or not to victimize my partner is my choice, not a red pill imperative.

  • [-]
  • keenly_disinterested
  • 1 Points
  • 18:38:52, 30 June

Lest we forget, just as there are people who believe the best kind of relationship is as TalShar describes, there are those (both men and women) who believe the best kind of relationship is as described by those he criticizes over at r/TheRedPill.

I happen to believe my wife is my partner, my best friend, my most ardent advocate, just as I am for her. I don't believe I could thrive in a relationship based on competition and sexual strategy. But I also happen to believe that my beliefs are right only for me; I have no reason to believe they are right for anyone else.

Shields up!

  • [-]
  • enlightenedlackey
  • -5 Points
  • 17:06:54, 30 June

The Red Pill is like the majority of subs I read, take the good, leave the bad (It has some relevant things to say). I don't really see the necessity to demonize it in the same way I don't see the necessity to demonize this sub somewhere else because the majority of posts are not things men need to know. I don't disagree with you, OP, I just disagree with the need for you to try and impress your views on other people.

  • [-]
  • TalShar
  • 2 Points
  • 17:27:25, 30 June

I do not mean to demonize the subreddit itself, but rather what seems to be the overwhelming thrust of those who participate in it, that you must emotionally abuse your spouse or girlfriend in order to have a happy relationship.

I generally tend to avoid impressing my views upon others, except in situations where people are getting hurt. From where I am standing, every time that strategy is employed, a woman is getting hurt, and furthermore, a man is hurting himself. That is why I share my view. Those who read it are free to take it or leave it.

  • [-]
  • rokr1292
  • -2 Points
  • 17:40:34, 30 June

Yes. Demonizing all of trp for the misunderstandings of some is OPs error. Op has his heart in the right place, but I think trip is less trying to beat women at the game and more trying to play with them, because no one has fun playing when you let them win, and that's what many men do.

Trp is used by many improperly. Another analogy you could use is that trp is a weapon, like a nuke, that if used irresponsibly causes major damage. However, the same can be said for whatever you might nickname the strategy of the modern woman. Trp is there to even the playing field, and stop the cold war of abuse in some relationships.

Trp has made me a happier man, and a healthier one. It was my online "battered men's shelter" and made me realize I was in an abusive relationship, and convinced me to leave. For the first time in my life, I'm not chasing women, I'm taking care of my body and mind, and I'm finding myself attracting the kind of woman I've been looking for.

I apologize if I seem overly defensive, but I feel like trp saved me, and while I can agree it can be a dangerous tool, I vehemently oppose those who demonize the whole of the subreddit.

  • [-]
  • teckreddit
  • 1 Points
  • 18:12:10, 30 June

I'm in my 30's, happily married, 2 kids, and I would say this about the whole RP/BP (a.k.a, alpha/beta) dynamic-

Advice in TRP is great for attracting women, but not appropriate for LTRs. Once the girl loves you - and you love her - if you can't drop the facade and approach your relationship as OP describes, you aren't ready for an LTR to begin with.

A large part of the TRP mindset is to never actually love any females and treat them as members of your imaginary harem. There's nothing wrong with that, as long as your girl(s) don't fall in love with you, either. If you let that happen and then use it to your advantage to systemically emotionally abuse her to keep her ass available for your pleasure, then you're a sadistic fuck. End of story.

There's a fine line between being alpha vs. just being an asshole. If you can't figure out the difference you should probably stay away from TRP altogether.

  • [-]
  • wanked_in_space
  • -8 Points
  • 17:03:46, 30 June

Every man should know that one man's word is generally biased.

Regardless how shitty the topic is.

  • [-]
  • TalShar
  • 5 Points
  • 17:28:28, 30 June

I do not pretend that I am free of bias. In fact, as a happily married man in a cooperative, 100%/100% relationship, I am overflowing with bias. Those who read are free to take or leave my advice.

  • [-]
  • StroubleAnTrife
  • -4 Points
  • 17:40:28, 30 June

Thank you so fucking much for this. It's pathetic and fucking dangerous. Those narcissistic cunts are either power hungry or afraid of rejection and pretend like they're winning or have things figured out. I'm so glad someone has comprehensively and coherently outlined the flaws in them, I was planning on doing it after exams but got busied. Cheers OP.

By the by guys, there's a sub reddit called something like thebluepill and exists to mock twerpers or whatever they call them over there. Although is more highlighting issues and sharing incredulity than mocking.

  • [-]
  • autoHQ
  • -3 Points
  • 18:06:52, 30 June

well then. Looks like I need some red pill advice. Having sex is better than being a fucking loner.

  • [-]
  • TalShar
  • 2 Points
  • 18:12:49, 30 June

Depends on what you are looking for.

  • [-]
  • the_Milkweed
  • 1 Points
  • 18:21:45, 30 June

Welcome to /r/theredpill after reading for a week try to not get so mad. You'll know what I mean one you've been there.

  • [-]
  • wickedstag
  • -9 Points
  • 17:33:56, 30 June

You seem to class all forms of power play as abuse. Why? Is the male having the control in the relationship automatically abuse?

  • [-]
  • patternfall
  • 3 Points
  • 18:05:58, 30 June

> having the control in the relationship

Thinking this has to be the case is part of the issue, I think. Why does one have to control the other?

  • [-]
  • TalShar
  • 1 Points
  • 18:05:28, 30 June

Having control? Depends on the relationship. Some women prefer for their man to be "in control." I don't see anything psychologically unhealthy about that as long as they're aware of the reasons they want that and are prepared to deal with whatever consequences may arise.

However, it really depends on why the man is in control. Is he in control (and how do you define "in control," too? What's he in control of?) because of mutual consent, or because he knows where to stick the knife into his wife's emotions to get her to squeal right?

It's all about consent.

  • [-]
  • ALL_HAIL_WBC
  • 1 Points
  • 17:47:39, 30 June

/r/bestof is calling!

  • [-]
  • [deleted]
  • 0 Points
  • 17:35:48, 30 June

[deleted]

  • [-]
  • zzonked7
  • 2 Points
  • 17:53:25, 30 June

I don't subscribe to that stuff, but I read Elliot Rodger's autobiography and his view was actually very differrent to their philosophy. Maybe even the antithesis. He's an example of the 'nice guy' gone wrong, rather than the 'manipulative douche' gone wrong.

  • [-]
  • ICWilfred
  • 0 Points
  • 17:47:27, 30 June

While generally agreeing with the thread, your comment is senseless and baseless. Any time spent actually reading in trp one will come to the conclusion trp would have taught this insane man who killed more men than women that he "deserved" absolutely nothing and had only himself to blame for his failings with females.

  • [-]
  • 1stGenRex
  • 1 Points
  • 18:01:47, 30 June

To be honest though, it would have taken more than just reading TRP to teach him that. He was raised that way, and it was disturbing how many times he used the phrase "it's not fair" in reference to wanting something he couldn't have. It's my understanding that at some point, toddlers do this, and early on, they are taught that life isn't "fair" and you don't always get what you want, just because you want it.

  • [-]
  • [deleted]
  • 1 Points
  • 17:52:00, 30 June

[deleted]

  • [-]
  • ICWilfred
  • 1 Points
  • 17:53:59, 30 June

>Six lives would have been saved if there was a societal mechanism to steer sexually frustrated males like Rodger into learning self-improvement, game, and masculinity, the very values that are taught here.

Maybe you should read what you site? Edit: because your source said exactly what I did.

  • [-]
  • so6p
  • -21 Points
  • 17:10:33, 30 June

That's a great writeup. But, then the question is why do almost all women get attracted to the Morpheus' red pill behavior (i.e., winning at sexual strategy). In my experience with female relatives, female friends, sexual partners, women cannot resist the tortuous red pill behavior and they abhor honest open dialogues, they think it's weak/unattractive. The few matured women you are describing exist only after they hit late 20s and have had multiple bad boy partners, after they realize that displaying emotional maturity is what will get them a provider male for her and her children. Many times, even after that, they simply don't feel satisfied with their provider male - enter arguments, fights, belittling and a general miserable state of life for the man and the woman. It's woman who constantly play the game of sexual strategy not men. Men just want to be with women. Women are the ones who want to use their sexuality for something more - attention, self-esteem, provision, etc. Men just desire women. Women desire the fruits of man's labor in return for sharing their proximity. So if a man has to be happy, he has two option - become MGTOW (relinquish chasing/courting women) or become a red-piller. No other option for a man could make him happy, except with rare women and that too once in a while.

  • [-]
  • TalShar
  • 8 Points
  • 17:23:10, 30 June

I think it's important to make the distinction between "get attracted to" and "cannot resist." I don't want a woman who can't resist her initial attraction. Those are just hormones. They will fade. As a man, I'm biologically attracted to displays of submissiveness (maybe it's social... I am not qualified to say for certain). However, I transcend that mere attraction when I am looking for a good quality in a woman. Let me tell you, if I had to describe my wife with 100 words, "submissive" wouldn't be in there.

The way I see it, a woman who goes after a "bad boy" is immature and underdeveloped. She has not yet learned to recognize the traits of a good mate. As men at large, we have two choices: We can emulate the traits of a "bad boy" and create a relationship based on deceit, held together by an attraction that will eventually fade, or we can refuse to play the game and "thin the herd," so to speak, of bad boys, forcing women to turn to other men if they want companions... and thereby learn what it's like to be with a good man.

You have a lot of generalizations in there. I understand, however, that you are admitting that they're not always true. That is well.

You're right: A good woman is a very rare thing. Equally rare is a truly good man. The only way we are going to solve this problem at large (as men as a whole and women as a whole) is the same way we would solve a problem in a spousal relationship: By working together.

If there aren't enough good men and women, you make more.

Red pill is settling for a facsimile of a healthy relationship. Maybe you'll be happy (for a while), but you'll never have the real thing.

Also the emotional abuse. That's just not okay, and I'm not budging on that point.

  • [-]
  • laverns
  • 1 Points
  • 18:34:33, 30 June

Almost all women? Not my experience at all. Not even close. You're generalising based on bad encounters.

  • [-]
  • totes_meta_bot
  • 0 Points
  • 17:53:31, 30 June

This thread has been linked to from elsewhere on reddit.

^If ^you ^follow ^any ^of ^the ^above ^links, ^respect ^the ^rules ^of ^reddit ^and ^don't ^vote ^or ^comment. ^Questions? ^Abuse? ^Message ^me ^here.

  • [-]
  • awildtread
  • 2 Points
  • 17:38:17, 30 June

It's quite sad that some people, both men and women, feel that in order to get what they want, they have to turn to emotional manipulation and abuse. Relationships are about compromise, the key to which is sometimes having to forgo the things you would like to do in order to make your partner happy/let them rest/give them space/etc, and viceversa.

  • [-]
  • TheBarnard
  • -1 Points
  • 17:51:29, 30 June

I subscribed to TRP for a little based on the name. Then i realized it was a hyper aggressive masculinism sub which is just as bad as hyper aggressive feminism

  • [-]
  • kodakrom
  • -7 Points
  • 17:49:16, 30 June

The fundamentals of 'TRP' are not sexual strategies for guys trying to get laid. TRP is about men embracing masculinity while living in an increasingly feminized society. Fitness, resourcefulness, honesty, accountability and professionalism are masculinity qualities which TRP promote; qualities which women find very attractive. Women are a secondary gain in TRP way of life. The real prize is becoming a better man.

  • [-]
  • Kattteee
  • 3 Points
  • 18:16:35, 30 June

it's a sexual strategy subreddit. I mean, it literally says it right there in the sidebar. I just scrolled down the front page and the majority of posts were about how women are absolute shit in one way or another. Not about becoming a better man, unless your idea of becoming a better man is whining about women on Reddit?

>Fitness, resourcefulness, honesty, accountability and professionalism are masculinity qualities which TRP promote; qualities which women find very attractive

Men find those qualities attractive in women too, incidentally. I really find it hard to believe that you had to turn to Reddit to learn that those are qualities people value in others?