One user in /r/adviceanimals really hates male feminists. Ends up deleting his account. (np.reddit.com)
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102 comments submitted at 18:15:53 on Jun 22, 2014 by IAmAN00bie
One user in /r/adviceanimals really hates male feminists. Ends up deleting his account. (np.reddit.com)
SubredditDrama
9 ups - 0 downs = 9 votes
102 comments submitted at 18:15:53 on Jun 22, 2014 by IAmAN00bie
i was gonna rage about how that stupid meme linked doesn't understand what "innocent until proven guilty" actually means but then i realized it was adviceanimals so it's to be expected.
I never thought I'd be questioning the stupidity of an adviceanimals post, but how does it fail to understand what "innocent until proven guilty" means?
Yeah, I'm not seeing that either.
Innocent until proven guilty is a legal standard. it doesn't make sense to apply it outside of a courtroom because we don't really walk around asking people to prove their allegations.
I mean, if I robbed you guys at gunpoint with no witnesses and you told people about it, they wouldn't reply to you "oh well catsandclasswar is innocent until proven guilty." It just seems like when it's rape suddenly this legalistic notion gets thrown out there.
> it doesn't make sense to apply it outside of a courtroom.
woot? If you don't know if someone is guilty of a crime, you shouldn't judge them for it. Simple concept, even outside of courtrooms.
That kind of skepticism doesn't really work in the real world because we're not given all the facts 100% of the time in order to make informed decisions. It's also a kind of skepticism that hardly anyone follows. We're more than happy to discard it in cases like OJ who we think is guilty even though he wasn't "proven guilty."
It's also self-contradictory. So if the guy is innocent until proven guilty of rape, why isn't the lady innocent until proven guilty of lying about rape?
That's not what self contradictory means.
uh, how is it not?
Okay, since you can't be accused of rape in a vacuum, there has to be an alleged rapist and alleged rape victim. If innocent until proven guilty is a standard we're following then it must be applied to both sides: the accused rape and the accused lying about rape. So, you can't think the accused rapist is innocent (until proven guilty) without thinking the rape accuser is guilty of lying. You can't logically consider the rape victim innocent of lying while also considering the accused rapist innocent of rape. One of those has to be false for the other to be true.
it functions as a self contradiction. in a court room this makes sense because one side is, theoretically, going to be proven correct. outside the courtroom, we can't do that because we lack the tools to prove anything most of the time.
"innocent until proven guilty" is not a statement of facts or truth. It is an ethical imperative put in place to prevent undue punishment. So yes, there can be 2 'innocent' parties in this scenario.
but it's logically incoherent because in order for 1 to be innocent, the other has to be guilty.
Reread my previous comment, you missed something.
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> It's also a kind of skepticism that hardly anyone follows.
the law does follow it. It is an ideal of course and there are some strict exceptions in cases based on circumstantial evidence. Since there will never be a completely and perfectly just system to punish crimes, you have to decide whether you want to punish innocent people or leave crimes unpunished. I think the latter has been proven to be less severe.
While I don't necessarily agree with them, they did say that they're specifically not talking about the law, so it doesn't really matter what the better legal system is in this discussion.
of course the law follows it (in theory, it doesn't actually work that way in the real world) that's why I said it was a legal concept.
Unfortunately, we're not all walking-talking courtrooms. I don't think this meme is referencing rape cases going to trial where I'd agree with such a standard. I just don't think applying it outside the courtroom for the reasons i just pointed out.