Notch: You can charge for hosting servers, but not for gameplay features. (twitter.com)

{Minecraft}

1469 ups - 368 downs = 1101 votes

420 comments submitted at 11:11:15 on Jun 6, 2014 by TomWis97

  • [-]
  • MiiNiPaa
  • 84 Points
  • 13:31:24, 6 June

I actually want to know: does anyone pays taxes from their minecraft income? Do they fill tax form as everyone else?
Do hosts who gives you "donation" buton do background checks? Do people know that in many countries this can be seen as illegal business by law?

  • [-]
  • ttk2
  • 80 Points
  • 14:45:18, 6 June

My server accepts "donations" to support hosting costs. The players do so only out of their own generosity so we don't have to worry about the EULA

But legally the money people are giving me is income, so I treat running the server as a sole proprietorship business for tax purposes, all income is reported and all expenses are deducted and it comes out to be about even as I don't make a profit intentionally.

That being said one year when we ended up with more money than we had expenses to deduct I paid that tax out of pocket. (It was really minor, low tax bracket as my server has a larger yearly income than me)

Let's not even get into asset depreciation and write offs.

Calling supporting a server a 'donation' is not legal neither is using sales tax exempt donation buttons though Financial services, at least in the united states you must be a registered nonprofit to do anything like that. So even though I run my server not for profit I still pay taxes on the significant income it makes at every stage but since I get to write off all the expenses as well so long as I don't make a profit I never really pay anything tax wise for running the server other than the time it takes to fill out the tax forums to report the income.

  • [-]
  • WayGroovy
  • 8 Points
  • 14:57:36, 6 June

I've called my server's donated income "contributions" since /u/PhonicUK posted http://blog.phonicuk.com/post/2013/02/05/Paypal-and-Minecraft-Server-The-dos-and-donts-to-help-avoid-getting-bitten.aspx

  • [-]
  • ttk2
  • 7 Points
  • 15:00:41, 6 June

I did 'supporting the server'

  • [-]
  • Loco970
  • 5 Points
  • 15:29:22, 6 June

Hello from a former civ-crafter!

  • [-]
  • Cranzia
  • 36 Points
  • 14:26:15, 6 June

All the professional big servers do. A lot of servers are tax evading though.

  • [-]
  • musicin3d
  • 23 Points
  • 15:19:16, 6 June

I doubt most servers are making enough profit to be taxable.

  • [-]
  • ttk2
  • 16 Points
  • 15:35:55, 6 June

~~officially all income must be reported~~ Officially all income over a threshold must be reported , it may not be enough that you actually end up paying anything, but it still has to be reported.

Its a real pain, even with proper spreadsheets from services like paypal it takes about a day to go through and total everything properly.

And then Bitcoin donations are really hard to sort out, capital gains on somthing given to you and then used months later with significant value difference.

  • [-]
  • cecil-explodes
  • 8 Points
  • 16:04:21, 6 June

it has to be reported if you are a money producing entity that generates 600 dollars or more, before costs. in America anyways.

  • [-]
  • BassNector
  • 5 Points
  • 16:11:00, 6 June

I remember my shop teacher saying he remembered when it was like ~5000 dollars before you needed to report taxes.

  • [-]
  • NoodleNoogie
  • 1 Points
  • 17:15:00, 6 June

I was told recently by an accountant $5,000 as well.

Though I think he said the IRS doesn't bother with less than 5k, which isn't the same.

  • [-]
  • BassNector
  • 1 Points
  • 17:18:42, 6 June

They care, just not enough to actually DO anything with that information, I would assume.

  • [-]
  • Ellimis
  • 1 Points
  • 17:10:05, 6 June

Did he then call you a whippersnapper?

  • [-]
  • BassNector
  • 1 Points
  • 17:18:18, 6 June

No. No he didn't.

  • [-]
  • drownballchamp
  • 1 Points
  • 16:39:04, 6 June

That's not true. There is a threshold for everything.

For instance independent contractors only have to report income if they make >$400 in a year.

That said, normally those thresholds are very small, as seen from my example.

  • [-]
  • ttk2
  • 1 Points
  • 16:42:27, 6 June

I have heard a lot of different thresholds, I had trouble figuring out which one applied to me way back when I started doing all of this and eventually decided it was just a good experience to do it anyways. Lets you know if your bookkeeping needs improvement.

  • [-]
  • GoghGirl
  • 1 Points
  • 17:16:17, 6 June

As an independent contractor myself the threshhold was around 5000 last year.

  • [-]
  • Booyeahgames
  • 1 Points
  • 16:57:14, 6 June

Also, there's this issues of giving people perks for "donations." At some point it can be argued that it's actually a sale of goods, at which point sales tax may be applicable.

  • [-]
  • WayGroovy
  • 15 Points
  • 13:43:43, 6 June

Technically they likely should. Especially if they are selling digital items or accepting donations. If you run your server as a small business you can cut out the costs of doing business, such as hosting, software costs, etc. Paypal will generate a tax form at the end of the year if the volume is significant.

tl;dr IANAL - Lawyer up, hit the gym, delete your facebook, join a credit union, put all your money in gold, record your conversations with Mojang for any future custody hearings, and fap before doing anything.

  • [-]
  • Fatyguy
  • 11 Points
  • 14:29:37, 6 June

> and fap before doing anything.

ah, the infinite fap loop.

  • [-]
  • Amane_VIII
  • 1 Points
  • 16:56:39, 6 June

I smoke two joints before I smoke two joints, and then I smoke two more...

  • [-]
  • ColonelScience
  • 1 Points
  • 15:37:23, 6 June

Hey, you're the guy who bought the first two fallout games for that other guy!

  • [-]
  • Fatyguy
  • 2 Points
  • 15:39:48, 6 June

omg someone recognized me on the internet!

Here, have and upvote.

  • [-]
  • securitywyrm
  • 2 Points
  • 16:04:40, 6 June

If you have a "Zero income" policy and all donations are held exclusively for server maintenance then it's not taxable. It's like... if we're splitting a pizza that costs $20 and I give you $10, you don't have to report that $10 as income.

The issue is that some people are using Minecraft servers for profit.

  • [-]
  • PapaSmurphy
  • 1 Points
  • 17:01:31, 6 June

> If you have a "Zero income" policy and all donations are held exclusively for server maintenance then it's not taxable.

Wrong. That would be a "zero profit" scenario, but you would still have to pay money on the income you brought in before expenses (assuming it's a large enough amount to be taxable).

If you bring in $2000 in server donations over a year, but spend all that money on server maintenance, you still have to pay taxes on that $2000.

  • [-]
  • ttk2
  • 1 Points
  • 17:11:43, 6 June

well actually you write off the $2000 on server expenses as a business expense and end up not paying taxes on it, you are still obligated to report it though.

  • [-]
  • PapaSmurphy
  • 1 Points
  • 17:18:58, 6 June

There's no guarantee you would get to deduct the full amount which is why it's important to report the income in the first place.

  • [-]
  • ttk2
  • 1 Points
  • 17:23:31, 6 June

true, if your expenses where less than the money you received you would earn taxable income.

  • [-]
  • PapaSmurphy
  • 1 Points
  • 17:27:49, 6 June

No, you don't seem to be getting it.

Let's say I deliver handmade widgets door to door. Fuel for my car at that point is a business expense. However the IRS may decide they will only allow me to deduct 60% of my fuel costs because I can't prove that all of my fuel was used exclusively for business purposes.

In that case I may look at the little accounting book I've been keeping and see a "profit" of $8000 after $12000 of income. However the IRS will tax me as if I had made a profit of $10000. This doesn't change the reality of how much money is in my pocket, I still bought that fuel I was counting as an expense, but it does change how much I'll pay in taxes.

  • [-]
  • dalesd
  • 1 Points
  • 17:13:28, 6 June

Business only pay taxes on profits. So if income ≤ expenses, the net profit is zero, no tax is owed.

  • [-]
  • PapaSmurphy
  • 1 Points
  • 17:24:16, 6 June

No buddy. You report all income and all expenses. The IRS gets to decide which expenses and how much of them you can deduct against your income.

Granted, what I posted is a simplification. However, there's a difference between "profit" and "taxable income".

  • [-]
  • securitywyrm
  • 1 Points
  • 17:17:08, 6 June

I disagree. Does a bank have to report as income every time I make a deposit? If ten people chip in $1 for pizza, does the person who ordered it have to report $9 in income?

  • [-]
  • PapaSmurphy
  • 1 Points
  • 17:21:52, 6 June

> Does a bank have to report as income every time I make a deposit?

No, but when they loan out a portion of your deposit and collect interest on that loan they are required to report that income. Your deposit is not actually income for the bank.

> If ten people chip in $1 for pizza, does the person who ordered it have to report $9 in income?

Did you skip the part where I said "assuming it's a large enough amount to be taxable"? If one person orders $10000 in pizza and 9 people give him $1000 each for a portion of the pizza then yes the person who ordered the pizza has to report that income. That's essentially being a wholesaler.

  • [-]
  • ctharvey
  • 2 Points
  • 16:19:29, 6 June

I've paid taxes the last three years. I use the PayPal API to run a shop on my site which doesn't say anything about donations as I'm not a non profit entity.

I don't sell in game items or anything really p2w outside maybe fly access so I'm really interested in how this will change things for me. I spend 40-50 hours weekly developing software for the server so I'm kind of disappointed I'll be looking for some other work.

  • [-]
  • MmmVomit
  • 1 Points
  • 16:43:37, 6 June

Flying is a game feature and you are selling it, so that will probably have to go. Of course, most servers will be able to keep doing this and fly under the radar.

  • [-]
  • ctharvey
  • 1 Points
  • 17:07:05, 6 June

Well flying in survival is technically not in the original game but yeah it'll probably have to go.

I've got tons of custom content so it'll probably just mean more innovating to find new ways of monetizing that doesn't break survival gameplay.

  • [-]
  • Firehead94
  • 0 Points
  • 15:50:39, 6 June

In America, you don't need to pay taxes nor report on anything under 1000 or 2000 USD (this is for the sake of garage sales and small home business that don't really make any profit). Also, I don't understand how servers need to sell off gameplay features for donations. I ran a server for an entire year and only offered things like /fly, colored names in chat, custom capes, custom skins, more homes, warps, teleports, and things of those nature. Charging for items leaves an imbalanced server that is completely controlled by who has money to donate and who doesn't.

  • [-]
  • Haplo12345
  • 1 Points
  • 17:03:25, 6 June

The things you "only offered" are gameplay features.

  • [-]
  • The_Elite_Dragon
  • 1 Points
  • 17:08:08, 6 June

Forgive me if I'm wrong but "charitable donations" aren't taxed. I'm not sure if servers would count though.

  • [-]
  • ttk2
  • 1 Points
  • 17:12:53, 6 June

In america at least you must be registered as a non-profit with the IRS (and meet the very small range of organizations that can be a non profit with the IRS) to take any sort of tax free donation or even to call giving you money a 'donation' which in the United States has the legal implication of being a nonprofit.

  • [-]
  • WayGroovy
  • 150 Points
  • 11:37:41, 6 June

/u/xNotch, That doesn't really clear up much for /r/admincraft.

Which of the following are gameplay features?

  • in game econ
  • colored names
  • thank you broadcast
  • custom items
  • plugin specific values, such as claimblocks
  • custom blocks or mobs from modifications

Just seeking clarity, thanks.

EDIT: I see /u/jeb_'s response here clears it up a little bit more:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Minecraft/comments/27ga86/psaaninsightintotheminecrafteula_issue/ci0m7zd

Looking forward to the official blog post.

  • [-]
  • MunkeyCraft
  • 66 Points
  • 12:12:48, 6 June

Think of it this way, when you bought Minecraft as a singleplayer game what did you pay for, the blocks, the items, the scoreboard features, the mobs, etc, this is the stuff you can't resell on a server.

Things that aren't part of the vanilla game you're welcome to...

Think of it this way, you buy a jigsaw for $10 and you have a lot of fun making it, then you do it again this time with a bunch of friends but before you can make it again with a group you need to buy some of the peaces again for $10 a peace.....this isn't fare because you've already paid for it once and paying for it again with each peace costing the same as the full puzzle is insane.

basically it's not right to sell part of the game to someone when they already paid money for the full game to start with.

  • [-]
  • WayGroovy
  • 40 Points
  • 12:15:00, 6 June

I'd love to hear that from Mojang in an official capacity. I don't want to infringe the EULA. The phrase "gameplay features" could stand to have some additional clarity.

edit, also, we didn't buy the game, according to the eula. We paid for the right to access the game.

  • Although we give you permission to play our Game, we are still the owners of it. We are also the owners of our brands and any content contained in the Game. Therefore, when you pay for our Game, you are buying a permission to play / use our Game in accordance with this EULA - you are not buying the Game itself. The only permissions you have in connection with the Game are the permissions set out in this EULA.
  • [-]
  • MunkeyCraft
  • 14 Points
  • 12:27:24, 6 June

yeah there is a lot of grey area to the EULA but the new one will hopefully clear those areas up.

I get that everyone is getting worked up about it and I can see it on reddit a lot for the last few days but it's worth remembering that when the new EULA comes in to effect it won't be changing anything it will just be clearing up the gray bits.

As far as Mojang have stated in tweets and replies it is against the rules of the EULA to sell any part of Minecraft, this is as it stands as a vanilla game regardless if through a donation or a sale.

The way I understand it that refers to real cash money, not an economic system where gold is money etc, although once again this falls in that grey area.

  • [-]
  • GrimTuna
  • 9 Points
  • 12:46:38, 6 June

> As far as Mojang have stated in tweets and replies it is against the rules of the EULA to sell any part of Minecraft, this is as it stands as a vanilla game regardless if through a donation or a sale.

Very grey area though. Can you sell your services in helping someone build a castle? Say you pay me $5 to build a castle... is that ok? Most people would probably say yes, though it's silly. A court would probably say it's ok too. You're not buying part of the game, you're buying someone's time and effort.

Now, say I pay you $5 to go find me and make me a diamond sword, and you can't be bothered and just use /give... is that ok? A new EULA would be greatly appreciated by all I think.

  • [-]
  • MunkeyCraft
  • 12 Points
  • 12:52:29, 6 June

You're right a new EULA would be very helpful and thats why they're trying hard to get it finalized and out to everyone asap, but something this big and something with this many gray areas is going to take time unfortunately.

But in reference to the diamond sword scenario i would say that yes it's against EULA to just use the /give command as then you're making them pay for a in-game feature and not really paying for your time, but going out and hunting for diamonds and making it then thats paying for your time....but once again gray area, but thats the way I would see it.

Sure you're using your time to do /give but make everyone on the server OP and they could do that anyway, it's part of the game.

  • [-]
  • Garrosh
  • 1 Points
  • 16:59:26, 6 June

If the EULA works like the World of Warcraft one then there is no "gray area". You can't sell game items for real money, period. It doesn't matter how did you obtained it: you can't sell them for money.

  • [-]
  • temotodochi
  • 11 Points
  • 14:43:59, 6 June

I paid for the game before this was in the EULA. Also i have free updates for life, but more recent players do not.

  • [-]
  • xSiic
  • 10 Points
  • 15:00:21, 6 June

It doesn't matter, you are still subject to the current EULA.

  • [-]
  • vhaluus
  • -3 Points
  • 15:06:51, 6 June

incorrect and legally indefensible.

  • [-]
  • gentlemandinosaur
  • 12 Points
  • 15:13:39, 6 June

When you sign in you are obligated to accept the EULA in its current form. Is it legally feasible? Are ANY EULA? Its on case per case. You got the time... they have the money.

  • [-]
  • Casurin
  • 4 Points
  • 16:27:14, 6 June

The eula, at all times, stated, that they can change it any time, adn as soon as you upgrade to any newer verison of the game, you do accept that current eula. thus, if you play na old verison, old eula, new verison, new eula.
And no, in the old version its the same, you are not allowed ot slel any part of the game, nor make profit on it.

  • [-]
  • Recabilly
  • 1 Points
  • 17:20:26, 6 June

Thank you! Finally someone understands that selling parts of the game was never legal

  • [-]
  • freddd123
  • 5 Points
  • 15:48:51, 6 June

Directly from the EULA:

> We may also change this EULA from time to time but those changes will only be effective to the extent that they can legally apply. For example if you only use the Game in single player mode and don‘t use the updates we make available then the old EULA applies but if you do use the updates or use parts of the game that rely on our providing ongoing online services then the new EULA will apply.

  • [-]
  • vhaluus
  • 5 Points
  • 16:01:36, 6 June

except anyone who bought in alpha was guaranteed free updates for life. If they predicate these guarenteed updates on signing an EULA they are in fact in breach of their contract with those who purchased the alpha.

EULAs can, and quite often do, say a whole lot of stuff that is in no way legally enforceable and what you quote is just an example of that.

  • [-]
  • Recabilly
  • 1 Points
  • 17:19:26, 6 June

The updates are free, just because there is a new EULA doesn't mean you need to pay for anything. Also this is entirely legally enforceable. Minecraft is Mojang's game.. it belongs to them and you pay them to play it. They have the right to this game not you or any server. No one can complain on the decisions of Mojang because in the end it's their game not any one else's.

Just because there is a new EULA doesn't mean the stuff servers do was legal to begin with, it just wasn't enforced.

  • [-]
  • Haplo12345
  • 1 Points
  • 17:04:55, 6 June

You paid for that version of the game before this was in the EULA. If you have used a version as new as or newer than this EULA tidbit, then you have accepted the EULA and everything that goes in it.

  • [-]
  • DevilGuy
  • 24 Points
  • 15:10:59, 6 June

Pretty sure you can't sell modded items or plugin based stuff either, all of that will count as derived code and the very first thing in the EULA is this:

>ONE MAJOR RULE

>The one major rule is that you must not distribute anything we‘ve made. By “distribute anything we‘ve made” what we mean is “give copies of the game away, make commercial use of, try to make money from, or let other people get access to our game and its parts in a way that is unfair or unreasonable”. So the one major rule is that (unless we specifically agree it – such asin brand and asset usage guidelines) you must not:

>* give copies of our Game to anyone else; >* make commercial use of anything we‘ve made; >* try to make money from anything we‘ve made; or >* let other people get access to anything we‘ve made in a way that is unfair or unreasonable.

>…and so that we are crystal clear, what we have made includes, but is not limited to, the client or the server software for our Game. It also includes modified versions of a Game, part of it or anything else we‘ve made.

>Otherwise we are quite relaxed about what you do - in fact we really encourage you to do cool >stuff - but just don‘t do those things that we say you can‘t.

This is not ambiguous in any possible way, you are not allowed to sell access to anything in game. Period. This includes mods, it includes plugin based options, it is not legal to 'make commercial use of minecraft' no means no.

  • [-]
  • WayGroovy
  • 1 Points
  • 16:54:44, 6 June

Pretty sure you can? Or pretty sure you can't?

  • [-]
  • DevilGuy
  • 1 Points
  • 17:08:10, 6 June

that was a typo, thanks for pointing it out

  • [-]
  • WayGroovy
  • 1 Points
  • 17:19:35, 6 June

Awesome, thanks for clarifying. :)

  • [-]
  • HerrBBQ
  • 0 Points
  • 15:35:12, 6 June

So Mindcrackers are breaking the EULA by making money through YouTube, then?

  • [-]
  • DevilGuy
  • 14 Points
  • 15:39:15, 6 June

no, what they're doing constitutes fair use, it counts as art which uses minecraft, but at least in the US is protected speech. There's no legal grey area there, because what they're selling is a record of their experiences, or performance art, while it would be possible for mojang to file claims with youtube to have them taken down, that has nothing to do with the law, youtube has those systems in place to avoid copyright lawsuits against itself, but a claim by mojang to youtube against a youtube user doesn't actually involve any legal proceedings and under law is considered between the involved parties and not a legal matter, it would only become a legal matter if Mojang decided to take youtube to court over hosting the content, which if youtube decided to actually defend, Mojang would almost certainly lose.

  • [-]
  • koppeh
  • 3 Points
  • 16:10:11, 6 June

help.mojang.com on YouTube Monetization

  • [-]
  • eduardog3000
  • 3 Points
  • 16:33:19, 6 June

Plus Mojang understands and has said that youtubers profiting from playing Minecraft does nothing but good for Mojang.

  • [-]
  • rcavin1118
  • 10 Points
  • 14:15:15, 6 June

Dude you are screwing up those homophones all day.

  • [-]
  • BernzSed
  • 1 Points
  • 14:42:12, 6 June

Did you just call me a homophone?

  • [-]
  • Dykam
  • 1 Points
  • 17:16:26, 6 June

I don't think that's a proper comparison. If you want to play jigsaw with your friends, you can run the server for free.

However, there's this company which has developed some different things you can do using your jigsaw, and since they got it busy you can donate a little to get higher up in the waiting line. That's how I see (non-pay-to-win) (minigame) servers.

  • [-]
  • SebasRM17
  • 1 Points
  • 17:29:24, 6 June

Okay, I understand that point, but lets say a server is charging for access to a backpack feature, these were not implemented in vanilla and only work through plugins. The moment you bought Minecraft you didn't buy an extra set of inventory stored on the server, how would that be affected by this? I'm not siding towards anything, I'm just curious.

  • [-]
  • sidben
  • 5 Points
  • 14:25:35, 6 June

Is the "claimblock" like they do on flatcore? (you have to claim an area to build, and you get more area the more you play or donate/contribute)

That is a very creative way of income IMO.

  • [-]
  • WayGroovy
  • 3 Points
  • 14:31:09, 6 June

That was what I was referring to, yeah. Well, GriefPrevention claimblocks in my servers case, but it's all the same.

  • [-]
  • snowflaker
  • 11 Points
  • 16:01:57, 6 June

colored names? like, Jahmaol? Laquarius?

  • [-]
  • phobos2deimos
  • 1 Points
  • 17:08:13, 6 June

http://i.imgur.com/kXeeUXD.gif

  • [-]
  • SuperWizard68
  • 3 Points
  • 15:29:10, 6 June

I would assume Notch and the rest of Mojang meant that anything you have to pay for with real money on a server, other than joining, is violating the copyright. Just a guess, still would be nice to get an official answer from someone at Mojang.

  • [-]
  • ForestOfGrins
  • 1 Points
  • 16:41:03, 6 June

> in game econ

I notice that a lot of the more developed minecraft servers have in game economies that allow players to easily trade with one another.

Have any admins thought about the challenge of creating a bitcoin-economy game? Imagine the context of mining a bunch of diamonds, selling them on the auction house, and then buying a cup of coffee at starbucks.

Some challenges to this would be security, yet there are luckily awesome and (relatively) easy-to-implement methods to shift security to local end user clients and not the server.

Bitcoin is programmable money; and there are methods such as multi-sig, nTimeLock (and coming up TimeLock), and Electrum Master Public Keys, that make security more common sense then technical.

These methods aim to decrease the server from ever touching bitcoin, thus there is no incentive to hack the server because it would be impossible to profit (nTimeLock locks would make a hack that reroute payments futile by forcing a time limit on all withdrawals). Plus, the server can use offline-transactions to enable micro payments, just like changetip.

I'd be happy to help any willing developer think-tank ideas, generate media, and market it. I'm sure it would be an experiment worth trying.

Thanks for poking around and making minecraft a better more fun place, here's 1000 bits towards your next coffee ^+/u/changetip

  • [-]
  • changetip
  • 1 Points
  • 16:41:29, 6 June

The bitcoin tip for 1000 bits ($0.66) is waiting for WayGroovy to collect it.

What's this?

  • [-]
  • shikamaruispwn
  • 1 Points
  • 16:45:22, 6 June

With the exception of a thank you broadcast, those are all definitely gameplay features. It doesn't matter if it's part of the original game or not, you're not allowed to sell modifications anyway. If people were selling any of those in another game made by a larger company, you can bet they would already either have received a cease and desist or be getting sued.

  • [-]
  • sgt_jack
  • 1 Points
  • 16:54:21, 6 June

Or if it was valve they'd get money instead.

  • [-]
  • theangrypenguin101
  • 1 Points
  • 17:24:15, 6 June

Think of it as like Disneyland. You pay money to get you in. Past that point you don't pay for the rides, and there aren't exclusive rides for people who pay extra.

  • [-]
  • KoolPopsicle
  • 49 Points
  • 15:07:49, 6 June

I think the biggest thing is this, said by Jeb in one of his responses: >Minecraft hosting has become increasingly rogue, and they mainly target kids, which end up looking bad for both Minecraft and Mojang. A lot of these conflicts end up at the Mojang support office, and we've been ignoring the issue for too long.

Serious, guys, think of the children!

  • [-]
  • razbrerry
  • 33 Points
  • 15:31:13, 6 June

This is the point right here. It's not that servers can't have their own economies, it's that some servers out there are weaseling kids out of cash, and their parents think it's Mojang's fault.

Now, that might be ignorance and idiocy driving the problem, but that's exactly why Mojang needs to step in and say "hey, these guys over here are playing dirty pool, they're not affiliated with our business, stop giving them money if it's a racket."

I doubt I'll ever use Realms, but it does add a level of legitimacy to multiplayer to have Mojang-official hosting.

This whole thing is peripheral to me anyways. I haven't played on a pub in years. I just play on private servers with friends.

  • [-]
  • Vakieh
  • 3 Points
  • 16:21:07, 6 June

Who plays vanilla though? Who is logging into a nonbucket or equivalent server on a regular basis? The numbers I pulled out of my arse suggest 90% of minecraft's player base doesn't do that.

  • [-]
  • Tuokaerf10
  • 1 Points
  • 17:09:44, 6 June

Other than an occasional deviation on Feed the Beast and Life in the Woods, my friend group and myself play mostly vanilla, and so do my kids. So we're out there.

  • [-]
  • metroidfood
  • 1 Points
  • 16:47:40, 6 June

Lots of people play vanilla. Reddit and probably your group of friends who play on Bukkit servers are not the norm, and you're missing out on a huge group of kids or not-so technically savvy people who don't play on Bukkit, or simply those who would be fine without those features for their own server they control.

  • [-]
  • Gumbaro
  • 1 Points
  • 17:17:45, 6 June

Yay! That means I'm a ten percenter. Although I don't think private servers fall under your claim.

  • [-]
  • eduardog3000
  • 8 Points
  • 16:08:19, 6 June

He isn't saying "think of the children". He is saying that servers trying to appeal to/target children make Minecraft and Mojang look bad. Especially when they get children to "donate" a shit ton of money.

  • [-]
  • smilbandit
  • 110 Points
  • 13:55:29, 6 June

I run a survival server for my son and give him items and such when he does chores. I hope I'm not in violation of the EULA.

  • [-]
  • Staleina
  • 50 Points
  • 14:24:28, 6 June

Oh don't be silly. :P

That is an ingenious way of encouraging your child to to house work. Good job.

  • [-]
  • MoodyBanana
  • 10 Points
  • 14:46:40, 6 June

That's the best idea ever of having your children do the chores, amazing!

  • [-]
  • SXR-Wahrheit
  • 31 Points
  • 14:30:00, 6 June

This is actually pretty good parenting - kids do well when they have quantifiable achievements and are reinforced positively for good behavior rather than punished for bad behavior.

Thanks for being an awesome parent and keep up the good work. :)

  • [-]
  • SuperWizard68
  • 7 Points
  • 15:31:08, 6 June

You're fine, as long as he doesn't pay money for them. Good parenting by the way.

  • [-]
  • Redsippycup
  • 6 Points
  • 15:47:43, 6 June

But he does provide a service. I.e chores.

  • [-]
  • dinosawrsareawesome
  • 1 Points
  • 16:52:07, 6 June

but a parent getting a child to do chores isn't subject to violating child labour law.

  • [-]
  • Redsippycup
  • 1 Points
  • 17:06:08, 6 June

Nobody said anything about child labor laws.

  • [-]
  • Haplo12345
  • 1 Points
  • 17:11:56, 6 June

There are laws (in the US, at least) that allow for the use of children for work (chores) by parents under whose care they remain.

  • [-]
  • uss1701jb
  • 1 Points
  • 16:41:10, 6 June

What ltems?

  • [-]
  • EvilEyeMonster
  • 24 Points
  • 14:26:43, 6 June

Those twitter reply's are ridiculous.

  • [-]
  • SocksForBreakfast
  • 1 Points
  • 16:51:26, 6 June

> DemmyPlays ‏@DemmyTweetz 5h

> @notch How the hell do you think server owners pay for their hosting services? :/


> Curtis ‏@Curtis3321 5h

> @notch Why now Notch? why 3 fucking years down the line? It's not easy running a server.


> Louis ‏@YTDeadNight 5h

> @notch if you cant make people pay for ranks/igm then you can't get money ... Then no money to pay for the server @silverfox4005

Nobody is forcing these idiots to host servers. As long as I've been a PC gamer, hosting game servers has always been a thing where "I have the extra cash, and want to run my own server". The owner eats the cost, and in return gets to run it how he pleases.

I used to run servers all the time.. CS 1.6, Garry's Mod, and many others. Never once have I asked for or expected a cent from anyone. I've gone out of my way and built $800+ machines to be specifically used as severs for people to play on .. for free. Because it was a fun hobby.

  • [-]
  • sergixio
  • 1 Points
  • 17:28:07, 6 June

You can afford to absorb server costs, others can't or just don't want to. I think Mojang is making a mistake here and will really most likely result in Minecraft decline.

  • [-]
  • sgt_jack
  • 1 Points
  • 17:32:07, 6 June

OMG OMG OMG WHY AM I NOT PAID TO ... Wait what do i do ? YEAH manage a server, my administatror power isn't free !

donation : > 50€ SuperÜberAdminPack

  • [-]
  • dream6601
  • 44 Points
  • 14:43:00, 6 June

Why is it reddit hates microtransactions when it come to big games and MMOs but wants to fight to keep them in minecraft servers?

  • [-]
  • WhatGravitas
  • 31 Points
  • 15:32:00, 6 June

Because reddit is not a big homogenous group of people and the people frequenting /r/Minecraft are probably not the same as the ones frequenting /r/gaming (though there is overlap, of course).

  • [-]
  • eduardog3000
  • 8 Points
  • 16:10:17, 6 June

Who the hell on here is fighting to keep server microtransactions?

Posts on this sub about the "donation ranks" on servers and how shitty they are are not uncommon.

  • [-]
  • MmmVomit
  • 1 Points
  • 17:08:49, 6 June

People who run servers.

  • [-]
  • IRememberItWell
  • 23 Points
  • 15:12:48, 6 June

A lot of people have paid into these micro transaction servers.

  • [-]
  • gioraffe32
  • 7 Points
  • 16:02:43, 6 June

Not all microtransactions are created equally, nor in the same environment.

Planetside 2 has microtransactions for "Sidegrades" and cosmetics. Access to the game is free. Most people don't mind the cash shop since they understand the devs (SOE) have to make some money and, again, the shop isn't entirely Pay-to-Win. All non-cosmetic items can be attained over time.

In other MMOs, you've already paid for the game, now you're paying a subscription, yet there's still a cash shop? AND it's Pay-to-Win? That's where people get frustrated; they feel they're being milked dry.

Now we have Minecraft. OK, so you paid for the client. But all non-Realms servers are hosted by third parties. Those third parties hosts don't receive money from the sales of Minecraft clients. And most people aren't going to pay for access to a Minecraft server. There are probably tens or even hundreds of thousands of servers; you just pick another one. But who's paying the bills for the server space, maintenance, internet connection, electricity, administrative work?

I run a private server for a small group of friends. Collectively, we all "own" it because we all donate to the pot. But if my friends didn't, I'd have to shoulder the entire burden (It's only $240/yr, but it's the principle of the thing). I already do the administrative work for free. It's not a whole lot most times, but I can easily spend a weekend working through a problem, especially when the newest version of bukkit releases or we move to a new host. And still, every month, I have to go around, hat-in-hand, "OK guys, who wants to cover this month's bill?" I can't force my friends to pay and I wouldn't.

For a professional level server, catering to hundreds of players, with multiple administrative staff...who pays the much-larger-than-$240/yr bills?

There isn't a good way to monetize server access, even if you're just trying to break-even and cover the hosting costs. So it has to be done this way, through microtransactions. Maybe some of these servers are doing the cash shops wrong, but I imagine some are doing it right. They're not all the same.

  • [-]
  • cjbrigol
  • 3 Points
  • 16:05:55, 6 June

Because I didn't sell the game for millions and am trying to get more. I just use it to cover the costs of the server, website, and giveaways

  • [-]
  • Fonjask
  • 3 Points
  • 15:07:34, 6 June

The difference between big games/MMOs and a single guy asking for small, optional donations is that the single guy running a minecraft server requires that money to keep the server up, and pay him for the time he puts into it (which is way more than people think).

  • [-]
  • SolfonicToast
  • 1 Points
  • 17:07:36, 6 June

Because Reddit isn't one person.

  • [-]
  • canastaman
  • 20 Points
  • 14:33:28, 6 June

You know what, I'm fine with that.

  • [-]
  • gentlemandinosaur
  • 11 Points
  • 15:12:05, 6 June

Don't we always bitch about pay to win? Constantly? Isn't it hypocritical to not stand by this?

  • [-]
  • KingPikablu
  • 1 Points
  • 15:42:54, 6 June

the worry is that there isn't a fine line between pay to win and other pay services, there are large servers that arent pay to win, but they offer titles and vanity items (things that dont actually affect gameplay, just look cool) to those that give money as an incentive. Those are the servers people worry about.

  • [-]
  • gentlemandinosaur
  • 3 Points
  • 15:49:12, 6 June

Well, even as vague as his statement is it clearly states "gameplay features". So, if it does not affect gameplay it is not a feature of gameplay.

I just find it ironic how the viewpoint is altered when it is the public worried about losing their income instead of the company.

  • [-]
  • WolfieMario
  • 2 Points
  • 16:30:59, 6 June

Grum stated that anything in-game, including cosmetic features, ranks, and colored names, are gameplay features. Whether Notch agrees has yet to be shown.

I'm not sure what your last statement means. Do you mean Mojang as a company? Because I don't see what they stand to lose. Or do you mean other game companies with pay-to-win? Because it's probably just that these server owners are more relatable than companies with hundreds of employees, but yes, it's a bit hypocritical.

  • [-]
  • gentlemandinosaur
  • 1 Points
  • 16:42:05, 6 June

Well, I do agree that more clarification is in order. And that latter, yes.

  • [-]
  • Haplo12345
  • 1 Points
  • 17:13:23, 6 June

If it's an item, it affects gameplay. If it's a title or a colored name, it affects gameplay. If it's a patch of land, it affects gameplay. If it's the /fly command, it affects gameplay. If it's moderator powers, it affects gameplay. That's really what gameplay is.

  • [-]
  • TheAjalin
  • 19 Points
  • 13:55:57, 6 June

lol servers like Hypixel are screwed

  • [-]
  • sidben
  • 16 Points
  • 14:51:07, 6 June

They can charge a monthly fee. Lets say they have 1000 players, charge US$ 2.00 / month. I think even a kid can afford 2.00 a month, that would make 2000.00 income.

Playerbase dropped to 500? Great! Now they don't have to buy such an expensive server, downsize.

  • [-]
  • WolfieMario
  • 1 Points
  • 16:37:26, 6 June

One idea I'm interested in is an invite-based system. One paying player is allowed to invite some number of friends to the server, free of charge. They can only get on when they're invited; however, they aren't kicked if their paying friend leaves (they just can't get back in on their own).

Alternatively, buying access could give you invitations which give the same access to your friends (so they can get on without you, as if you bought access for them too). Packages could be based on the number of invitations you can send, and the duration of membership, both of which would scale non-linearly with cost.

There could even be a trial period for players newly joining the server. There's all sorts of ways to put "you can charge for access to your server" to good use. The point is, the playerbase doesn't have to drop drastically.

  • [-]
  • Sneaky_Devil
  • 1 Points
  • 17:11:31, 6 June

The server I played on in 2010 charged a one time $10 fee, it worked out pretty great. The costs were always covered and no one had an advantage over anyone else, plus it helped to garner a dedicated community. There weren't a lot of anti-grief measures at the time, so the fee helped to keep griefers out as much as it kept the server running.

  • [-]
  • Haplo12345
  • 1 Points
  • 17:15:06, 6 June

I've never heard of Hypixel but that just seems like too many people for a Minecraft server.

  • [-]
  • ttk2
  • -1 Points
  • 15:08:26, 6 June

With their assets I hope everyone is aware they are fully capable of coding their own Minecraft server implementation that relies on no Mojang code, they can then host to real Minecraft clients without having to accept the EULA.

It really depends on if a networking protocol counts as an API and is therefore not copyright-able (Google V Oracle). Severs really don't use any mojang assets, they just tell the clients to use them.

Oh it could be a nasty legal battle but they might have a chance with this method.

  • [-]
  • DevilGuy
  • 2 Points
  • 15:23:00, 6 June

yeah and then they get a visit from the police, that's strait out illegal Mojang wouldn't even have to sue them they could file criminal complaint and then ask to have the IP blocked.

  • [-]
  • trisk
  • 54 Points
  • 13:37:48, 6 June

Is everyone in these threads stupid? Sorry, free lunch is over. Stop bitching.

  • [-]
  • EnderFenrir
  • 32 Points
  • 14:26:24, 6 June

It is seriously baffling that people are finding this difficult to understand. You can charge for access to your server, beyond that you are not to charge for anything else. The only people wanting clarification must stand to lose money, and want to find a loophole.

  • [-]
  • getintheVandell
  • 6 Points
  • 15:45:38, 6 June

I can understand the issue. People won't go to servers that charge a premium just for entry, and that monetizing the way that many servers do helps a lot towards costs without interfering the player. A server that does it 'right' only offers small bonuses, and/or uses payment to gauge the serious players for bigger features.

Let's take a server I used to play on, Knights & Merchants. If they granted the clan/territory feature to everyone that walked into the server day one, it'd be a complete and utter mess. By making it a paid feature, or requiring a lot of time be spent towards the server beforehand, it shows a player is at least partially dedicated to making it work.

  • [-]
  • Broseph_McTatertots
  • 1 Points
  • 16:35:21, 6 June

Off the top of my head, here are some monetization options (which could be used alone or in some combination) that based upon my limited, possibly flawed understanding wouldn't conflict with the EULA:

  • Access to regional servers instead of a global server (less lag)

  • (X day) or (Y ingame time) free trial followed by either a subscription or lifetime purchase requirement

  • Server divided into public and premium areas; premium would be less crowded or give you other benefits like having your own private world for friends to join

  • Team matchmaking support so your friends will stay grouped in team-based game modes

  • Queue-hopping for premium users

None of these sell the game back to the user, nor do they sell mods or in-game content like items. They either sell simple access to a server, or they sell enhanced access to a server.

IMHO Mojang is still shooting themselves in the foot a little. If they allowed servers to sell cosmetic items which don't affect gameplay (TF2 model basically) it would be a reasonable compromise. For example:

  • Your player skin defaults to Steve if you don't have a premium account

  • You get a cape for having a premium account

  • You can choose the color of your name in chat and above your head if you have a premium account

  • [-]
  • Haplo12345
  • 1 Points
  • 17:16:16, 6 June

Not necessarily. That is a logical fallacy.

  • [-]
  • BBC5E07752
  • 9 Points
  • 14:23:26, 6 June

All these whiny badmins complaining their shekel gravy train is being derailed.

  • [-]
  • zut50
  • 5 Points
  • 15:24:51, 6 June

I nominate "badmin" for word of the year! :D

  • [-]
  • dctrjons
  • 2 Points
  • 14:32:22, 6 June

Free lunch, more like getting paid to eat. ;)

  • [-]
  • PapaSmurphy
  • 1 Points
  • 17:03:17, 6 June

> Sorry, free lunch is over.

Eh, I wouldn't say that just yet. Yes, they're changing the EULA. However they have made no mention of how they plan to enforce this policy.

Buying gold from a third party re-seller is against the WoW EULA yet it has began with the game's launch and still continues today.

  • [-]
  • HypnotikK
  • 16 Points
  • 14:08:23, 6 June

So many russled jimmies on twitter. The butthurt is strong.

  • [-]
  • superswag420yolo
  • 1 Points
  • 17:04:40, 6 June

It's really disappointing to see the controversy and overexaggeration surrounding these recent events. I play with a load of people in a community that has been running for coming up 5 years. Have they taken a profit in that time? Nope. You can try to inflate the recent events to be 'destroying multiplayer' if you want to, but how come there are still places out there that can make $150 a month without a single 'VIP', 'God' or any other type of reward apart from gratitude and provision of service? Sure, running a server is costly business, even more so for monoliths supporting thousands of players, hence why I have never personally bothered with the pursuit, but if you find the right people both to manage and to play, there's no reason that you can't support the communities surrounding Minecraft. Give the community a chance to prove themselves, and get back to playing your favorite server in no time.

  • [-]
  • Dilanski
  • 7 Points
  • 15:11:11, 6 June

Oh the plight of the worlds 12 year olds! How dare the Mojang team ask that they don't profiteer off the back of their work! But seriously, seeing this fully enforced would do the current server meta a world of good.

  • [-]
  • DevilGuy
  • 6 Points
  • 15:28:47, 6 June

they do have a point though, it is their work, and seeing it used by people for predatory monitization has to be pretty galling.

  • [-]
  • Dilanski
  • 4 Points
  • 15:34:55, 6 June

I think there's another reason behind it, the brand. I know a few parents who think minecraft is a con, due to heavily monetised servers, and there kids constantly asking for money to put into it.

  • [-]
  • DevilGuy
  • 3 Points
  • 16:13:11, 6 June

well yeah sure, but as a minor artist I can say unequivocally that someone using something I made for predatory monitization would annoy me, regardless of any money I had in it, it's the principal. The guys at Mojang don't strike me as unscrupulous, even if there is some good business sense in preventing this kind of thing I think they'd do it anyway just to protect their own good name and because they want no part of such practices.

  • [-]
  • jfb1337
  • 3 Points
  • 15:28:31, 6 June

To all the 7yos who are complaining that servers won't be able to pay for hosting on donations alone, as I said to someone else,

>You can charge for access to the server. For example, a server with 20 people might cost about £6/month ($10) to host. A server with 100 people might cost about £30/month ($50) If each player paid £1/month ($1.68), that's easily affordable for players, and the admin can even make a profit. Have more members and need a bigger server? No problem; you'll have more members to pay for it. Fewer members? No problem, you don't need such a big server any more. You can offer an UNRESTRICTED 30 day trial on the server so people can see what it's like before subscribing to pay £1/month for it. But if there is some feature that only subscribers can access that people on the 30-day trial can't, that becomes a purchase which would not be allowed.

  • [-]
  • Pyro21
  • 18 Points
  • 11:45:17, 6 June

I love the amount of 8 year olds bitching in the comments about it. I saw one: "How would servers run if they couldn't get those 'donations'?"

Easy: They wouldn't. If the only dedication a person has to spending money on a server is through donations, then that person isn't very dedicated to owning a server, not to mention a lot of these people are probably pocketing a lot of these "donations" for themselves and for their own benefits outside the server, which is like saying "give me $20 so I can feed an African child", and then not feeding an African child.

Let the big boys who are serious about it run the show. Or at the very least, donations shouldn't give you any kind of bonuses in-game.

  • [-]
  • TheLeafdude
  • 42 Points
  • 12:00:45, 6 June

Running a server takes a hell of a lot of time, people keep seeming to forget that. The people who run the bigger servers don't have time for jobs and for running the server. The way they earn money is by running the server.

  • [-]
  • Symbolis
  • 9 Points
  • 12:31:12, 6 June

It takes a fair chunk of change, as well. Unless not many people play on your server, anyway.

  • [-]
  • MoodyBanana
  • 6 Points
  • 14:47:26, 6 June

They also take a lot of cash to run, people don't realize this either.

  • [-]
  • reallyjustawful
  • 1 Points
  • 17:16:24, 6 June

It takes a lot of time if you suck at it and dont know how to automate tasks.

  • [-]
  • SuperWizard68
  • 3 Points
  • 15:34:54, 6 June

I never thought it was right in the first place to buy your way through the ranks instead of earning them. Not as much work, or fun for that matter, involved.

  • [-]
  • Pyro21
  • 1 Points
  • 15:36:11, 6 June

Not to mention the fact that a lot of kids aren't able to get them, so there's a ton of kids who see all these players flying around and spawning in tools and all that crap, but they're stuck having to work for everything.

  • [-]
  • SuperWizard68
  • 1 Points
  • 16:09:10, 6 June

On the bright side, it gives them work ethic.

  • [-]
  • wedtm
  • 1 Points
  • 17:08:06, 6 June

When I was a kid, I saw a bunch of people driving around in fancy cars and generally enjoying life. I didn't say, "Fuck that, they shouldn't be allowed to do that if I can't!" I said, "Shit, I should work hard so one day I can do that too!"

If those kids really want those options, they can have them in the single player version of the game.

  • [-]
  • Datdus
  • 1 Points
  • 17:35:48, 6 June

You're fucking retarded. Go to communist fucking Russia if you want to get service for free.

  • [-]
  • retrofitme
  • 5 Points
  • 15:16:43, 6 June

It seems to me that the Mojang hasn't realized that what they have produced in effect is a platform. One that by their own design is extendable and modifiable by other people. In order for the platform to survive and grow, people need to be able to make money for their effort.

Think of it in terms of other software, like Windows. When you buy Windows, you get access to all the functionality that Windows has. You cannot resell this functionality directly, but you can create/sell software for it. You can even create software that utilizes Windows functionality, which is in a sense 'reselling' MS software. More correctly, any software you do create ultimately HAS to rely on Windows functionality at some point, because that is what a platform is.

Mojang needs to realize that their software has evolved into a platform and rework their EULA to recognize that fact. To make minecraft truly sustainable, they need to facilitate modders and server admins in their efforts to make reasonable money.

/edit: damn you autocorrect.

  • [-]
  • BlackDahlia1147
  • 1 Points
  • 16:37:08, 6 June

people already accept donations for mods on plenty of websites, Sonic Ether for example. This is exclusively aimed at servers

  • [-]
  • 1yoyojo
  • 4 Points
  • 15:19:29, 6 June

from what i have been able to gather is they are looking at stopping a very few things

  1. Preventing server owners from making large profits from the game.

  2. Preventing server owners from giving game play advantages to players who more (pay2win system)

They seem to have no interest in going after people who do the following

  1. charge for server entrance obviously. (one time or subscription based)

  2. charge for purely aesthetic items with the point of covering costs.

  3. Fan art or other real word items.

  4. Receiving donations to run servers. (as long as you do not "reward" those who donate.)

The main point is they want to prevent the pay2win system many servers have adopted and make paying and nonpaying customers on a level game play field.

  • [-]
  • billymcguffin
  • 1 Points
  • 16:38:52, 6 June

The word ascetic is not the word you're looking for I'm afraid. "Aesthetic" means "concerned with beauty or the appreciation of beauty." "Ascetic" means "a person who practices severe self-discipline and abstention."

  • [-]
  • 1yoyojo
  • 1 Points
  • 17:16:36, 6 June

Yep totally misses that thanks

  • [-]
  • franki_786
  • 4 Points
  • 14:25:18, 6 June

So, as an example from a server I joined recently:

MCTunnel Donation Ranks

VIP [VIP] $100 (A donation rank on this server.)

Features:

  • Custom [VIP]Player nametag and color in-game!

  • Access to the /fly command, which lets you fly!

  • Virtual chest access in-game

  • /jumpto - Teleport to the block you're looking at (Or left click with compass)

  • Fifteen (15) private warps (/pw set | /pw goto)

  • Unlimited WorldGuard protected regions set by an Administrator

  • Teleport to other players (/tp)

  • Teleport another player to you (/tphere)

  • No fall damage

  • Underwater breathing

  • Full diamond armor set, great for new players.

  • Personal enchantment table, allows you to enchant on the go (/etable)

  • Personal workbench, allows you to craft on the go (/workbench)

  • Use /return command to go to your last location

So, according to the Minecraft EULA, them selling these in game features by donations to the server is illegal?

  • [-]
  • DCLID
  • 7 Points
  • 14:44:23, 6 June

Yep.

  • [-]
  • driverdan
  • 2 Points
  • 15:24:17, 6 June

The only thing here that's in the normal game is the diamond armor. The rest would be a grey area, like mods.

  • [-]
  • jfb1337
  • 3 Points
  • 15:00:33, 6 June

Yes. Although I don't see any problem with a [VIP] tag and colours, the rest of them affect gameplay so should not be legal. But from a legal standpoint, the first thing i think technically violates it.

  • [-]
  • Imperion_GoG
  • 3 Points
  • 15:03:51, 6 June

>You may develop tools, plug-ins and services for commercial use but they may not seem official, such as using our logos. Do not make commercial use of anything we've made without our permission.

The system that controls donations, payments, rewards and access tiers is a tool, plug-in or service. So long as they make it clear that they are not affiliated with Mojang they aren't in violation.

  • [-]
  • dstar89
  • 3 Points
  • 16:09:10, 6 June

Most people out there know Minecraft is a very popular game, with lots of the audience of it's players being children, and a lot of these children will have parents that will see as giving them money for a special account on a server better then having to get them some new iPad or expensive toy. The rest of the audience of the Minecraft game is mostly die-hard fans, and then the little remaining percentage is just people who play it occasionally - they are the less likely to interact with servers.

But still, people take advantage of this - sure it's a clever business move but it's also a shady one, and most of you shady server owners haven't been compiling with the rules for several years now, which is why the uproar about Mojan noticing this is so big right now.

Too explain it like you're 5, YOU own:

> * The server. If you're on a host, then you don't - you own the server/hosting account you paid for, and the rights to do things within the limits of your host's TOS - else wise if it's your actual machine then you own it.

> * Any custom made systems; This includes micro-transaction systems. I see a lot of people say they evade the EULA abuse by accepting "donations" or "support for the server" but when in reality all you'd need to do is use some PHP/MySQL to have players create some account on your site and for example let them purchase things like 'YOURSEVERNAME Gold' to use has a in-game currency for transactions for say a diamond sword. You make money from the YOURSEVERNAME Gold which is sold strictly on your website, and then that in-game currency goes to the player's website account so when they connect to Minecraft online to your server, they'll be enabled to to use this fake currency they purchased to get diamond items or pet squids instantly. IANAL but, I'm pretty sure in a situation like that Mojang cannot sue your soul for that.

> * Any of your patented/copy-written material; Whether you have this material in game or not. These could be images, graphics, added models, etc. This is excluding the likes of mods, as I will get to that in a minute.

YOU do NOT own:

> * Minecraft or any of it's in-game content; This means you cannot re-distribute or sell of the base of the game or it's codes, or sell in game items like diamond armor on your server for $50 USD a piece. You can't do this on your own website either, but you can and if not (again, IANAL) should be able to allow the transaction of a fake, added in-game currency that let's users buy the items - making it a physical transaction of digital goods owned by you on your website, and a fake, sorta "house play" transaction in the game. EDIT: Also, this includes the software that's necessary to run your server like the Minecraft_Server.exe you can download.

> * Mojang or it's Patented/copy-written content; This includes any of their other games (and their content), graphics, images, documents, systems, etc.

> * A MINECRAFT PLAYER: This goes back to charging on MC servers. IANAL but I'm sure the fake in-game currency works, but charging say a monthly cost - whether it's on your website or on the Minecraft game connection point - for player's to be able to access your server or any special features is not complying with the EULA. This is in the meat and potatoes of it all, selling the game off to people in a recurring fashion. Do not charge recurring payments or single payments for any special access. You can however do that for once again, your fake gold via your website which then becomes play money on your server.

On the case of mods;

Mojang also states in their EULA they decide in the end what is constituted as a tool/mod/etc., and that you cannot sell your mods for money. The mods thing is basically the whole server situation, but just without the server. Think back to the last time you went on a Minecraft modding spree - did you pay money to be able to download and use any of the mods you got? No? Good! The modders are complying then. If you said Yes, then the problem comes in: it's just like charging a recurring cost to access a server.

Why? A mod for Minecraft might be someone else's codes from scratch and such, but it makes use of the base game. Even if the mods are strung through something like Forge, it still makes use of the base game by connecting through the Forge API and then to Minecraft - Forge acting as a middle-man (and Forge doesn't charge for you to use it either). That's why on most donation pages like the MinecraftComesAlive page, they will have 'Donation' buttons; the only legal way to get compensation from their mods would be a Donation - if they say it goes to further development of the mod.

Now, server owners here's why you can't charge for mod-added features: THE SAME DAMN THING MENTIONED ALL ABOVE! Not only is selling a mod against the EULA, but selling it's features on your server is as well, and if you don't own the mod and don't have permission from the mod author than you've gotten yourself two feet deeper. A mod, though someone else's work, will still be constituted in the EULA as a added feature not owned by Mojang but makes use of Minecraft which is owned by Mojang. Get the picture now? Good.

So, to legally make money from your Minecraft Servers, do the following:

> * Do some programming to make a site that is related to your server and allow users to create accounts (do NOT make website accounts required for accessing your server!) and allow them at their own will and time to purchase ON YOUR WEBSITE some made up, play-money in-game currency like MyEpicServer Goldlings for $XX USD. When a transaction has been confirmed, your programs should grant the associated user that XX amount of in-game currency to obtain or acquire items without working on the game for it. Making it legal. Even if you require a mod for this, as long as you're not selling the mod and just using it as the middle-man system to transfer the fake money (with help from technology like MySQL) you will be fine.

> * Allow users to 'Contribute to the Server' on your website. If you say 'Donate' then you cannot give them any benefits in this sense as it will make you end up not complying with the EULA. If you use the term 'Donate,' then you must also say what donations are used for and keep in mind: you cannot pocket donations; it's wrong and pretty much another shady move. Saying 'Contribute to the Server' or something along those lines are better as you can keep some of that money and still benefit users, BUT WITH ON-SITE ITEMS ONLY; say more of your glorious MyEpicServer Goldlings.

> * If you do associate a website with your server; you can run ads on it such as Google AdSense or Chitika to reap in a little bit of extra income.

Also, to make money from your MODS legally:

> * Ask for donations for further development. That's it. Remember that using the term donate as a way of saying 'Buy this mod' is practically against the EULA and a bad move. Mods aren't meant to make you money; they're meant to make your respect from the MC community and make people's playing experiences better.

Do the opposite of anything I just listed, and maybe more things, would be classified as illegal and not complying with the Mogang EULA. So, kids or shady business men running servers illegally (and by that, I mean by doing what I told you not to in this post); change and change quick. It won't change the fact that you did it before, but it does show you know you were wrong and are fixing your wrongs to make some sort of a right.

  • [-]
  • RovertS32
  • 3 Points
  • 14:01:13, 6 June

I honestly don't see how they can tell servers they can't allow you to have donations set up for plugins (which have nothing to do with Mojang I thought). Am I wrong? Can someone explain how I am if I am or explain this better?

  • [-]
  • longshot
  • 9 Points
  • 15:11:17, 6 June

Donations setup for Plugins are fine! Why would mojang care if you're reselling something that isn't theirs?

THIS is the fundamental misunderstanding everyone is having. Sell all the plugin-enabled abilities you want. Don't put a paywall up for the nether or otherwise normally accessible items in the game. If you do that you are reselling pieces of the game and mojang never licensed you to do such things.

  • [-]
  • RovertS32
  • 2 Points
  • 15:21:50, 6 June

That's the entire point of me coming on this page to ask questions? I didn't know and wanted someone to explain it to me? Please, calm down. I don't get why you're getting so worked up over this.

  • [-]
  • longshot
  • 4 Points
  • 15:26:04, 6 June

Oh sorry, didn't mean to sound like I was angry or anything. Just adamant that this isn't some complex issue or a giant mojang power grab.

  • [-]
  • Cranzia
  • -1 Points
  • 14:27:31, 6 June

With the new EULA, Mojang owns everything to do with Minecraft basically. If you don't agree, you can't play Minecraft. That means servers, plugins, mods, etc.

  • [-]
  • RovertS32
  • 8 Points
  • 14:46:01, 6 June

So you're telling me Mojang owns bukkit, essentials, and all the other mods that have copyrights? (I'm not trying to be rude here I want someone to explain this to me better please continue doing that).

  • [-]
  • demultiplexer
  • 14 Points
  • 14:52:30, 6 June

No, Mojang explicitly states that the mod maker or resource pack artist retains his copyright over his or her work, but they are forbidden to charge for it (as a consequence of it being derivative work that requires the base game).

Compare this to something like Garry's mod or DayZ. When they were originally made as mods based on existing games (Source and ArmA II engines), they were not allowed to charge for them. That is why they made it into standalone games, still using those engines but with a license agreement that allows them to run independently from the original games.

At some point, Minecraft may become one of those kinds of game engines, and allow people to make games with them just like Valve, Epic, Crytek, etc. are doing. Until that point, you're not allowed to charge money for that kind of stuff. And neither are you allowed to repackage and sell parts that are already in the game of Minecraft.

  • [-]
  • xSiic
  • 2 Points
  • 15:04:50, 6 June

I wonder how this will affect stuff like McMyAdmin and Multicraft.

  • [-]
  • RovertS32
  • 0 Points
  • 14:55:31, 6 June

Thank you to both of you, now I just have to wait for Mojang to make clear how its possible to run a server that wouldn't survive on just friendly donations alone.

  • [-]
  • StreetLampLeMoosen
  • 9 Points
  • 15:04:56, 6 June

> make clear how its possible to run a server that wouldn't survive on just friendly donations alone.

It wouldn't. If you want to run a server, you're going to have to pay some money. Servers are not a market for you to earn money, they are a fun thing for you and your friends.

  • [-]
  • RovertS32
  • 1 Points
  • 15:09:51, 6 June

I understand that, I'm not talking about the 30 slot survival servers. I'm talking about the Minecades and Hives that run on perks that give rewards. They cannot survive on just donations alone and there is no way they could afford to pay the price themselves regardless of how many people there are to pitch in from devs to whatever. The only way I see them surviving and staying the same size as they are now is if they are allowed to continue doing what the Hive does now and have a monthly subscription. But if they do then I will probably have to stop playing MC because I won't waste that much money per month on a video game (cough WoW cough).

  • [-]
  • StreetLampLeMoosen
  • 4 Points
  • 15:13:37, 6 June

To be honest, fuck servers that make people pay for shit. I play minecraft servers for Minecraft. Not some five second microtransaction for god armor. Fuck that shit, our community does not need that.

  • [-]
  • RovertS32
  • 2 Points
  • 15:16:09, 6 June

You need to play on big servers with subscription type donations that are big, but still mangage to be balanced. I enjoy how fun the minigames are and I don't pay a dime and enjoy the hell out of all the different minigames on there even though there are donors with reserved server spots and special tags.

I have never, and never will play on a server like you described.

  • [-]
  • demultiplexer
  • 2 Points
  • 15:07:40, 6 June

We know already that voluntary donations and one-time/subscription payments are OK. Other things are still up in the air until the new EULA hits, which won't be soon according to jeb_'s last comments.

  • [-]
  • Cranzia
  • 1 Points
  • 15:04:29, 6 June

Yep. Also to help you understand more, here is an exert from the EULA.

"If you make any content available on or through our Game, you must give us permission to use, copy, modify and adapt that content. This permission must be irrevocable, and you must also let us permit other people to use, copy, modify and adapt your content. If you don‘t want to give us this permission, do not make content available on or through our Game."

So basically if you don't agree to that, you can't make a server/modpack/etc.

  • [-]
  • longshot
  • 3 Points
  • 15:13:44, 6 June

This is a ridiculous claim. Mojang owns everything Mojang owns. Don't resell what they own or sold to you or your players. Did they sell you your bukkit plugins? No, you have to deal with Bukkit and the plugin's EULA if you want to sell that stuff.

Does Mojang own the nether? Did your players already pay Mojang for a game that included the ability to create a portal to the End? Yes, so don't resell that shit, they've already sold it to the player.

  • [-]
  • RovertS32
  • 1 Points
  • 15:18:32, 6 June

Overreacting people overreact. Be sure to read the last part in parentheses of my comment please, I didn't understand that and was asking people to explain that to me.

Much less I did not say I own a server, stop being so presumptive. I'm simply trying to understand this and you had to try and start a flamebait war with me. Cool guy.

  • [-]
  • longshot
  • 1 Points
  • 15:28:02, 6 June

Like I said in my other reply, not angry with you or ANYTHING. Just very concerned people so quickly assume the worst and don't actually read any of the mojangsters responses.

Cranzia's claim that "Mjoang owns everything to do with minecraft basically" was indeed a ridiculous claim that is indicative of the atmosphere surrounding this "controversy".

  • [-]
  • RovertS32
  • 1 Points
  • 15:31:52, 6 June

Really this just needs to stop and be waiting on Mojang, people are going to overreact and get heated and until Mojang makes an official statement we are just speculating.

  • [-]
  • longshot
  • 1 Points
  • 16:20:05, 6 June

Indeed!

  • [-]
  • Tysonzero
  • 1 Points
  • 16:29:07, 6 June

Dafuq kid, he didn't even reply to you, He replied to /u/Cranzia.

  • [-]
  • eduardog3000
  • 1 Points
  • 16:45:01, 6 June

There is no new EULA. They are just reiterating that selling Mojang assets (which includes in-game, vanilla items) has been illegal all along.

  • [-]
  • ProjectGemini
  • 2 Points
  • 15:22:18, 6 June

I'm slightly concerned about a server I play on. The owner is a good guy, pays taxes, etc. He explicitly said he doesn't want it to be pay to win, and donations get you something like extra homes and the ability to lock chests (which isn't useful anyway, because it's a Towny server, so by living in a town your chests are protected anyway). Are they violating this?

  • [-]
  • eduardog3000
  • 1 Points
  • 16:41:44, 6 June

> and donations get you something like extra homes and the ability to lock chests

That is selling part of Mojang's game. That is selling part of a plugin, so it is fine.

  • [-]
  • humanitywasabadidea
  • 2 Points
  • 15:29:18, 6 June

Can someone elaborate to me something, because the way I see it, it's not the server limiting your use of something in the game, it's them allowing you to use it on the server, which, ultimately, I believe, should be up to them.

Can anyone who knows better explain why not?

  • [-]
  • Mr_Scrappy
  • 1 Points
  • 17:23:50, 6 June

i'm not entirely sure on what this is about, i'm pretty clueless, could someone explain?

  • [-]
  • KefkeWren
  • 1 Points
  • 17:29:56, 6 June

Well, that's that, then. Word of God, straight from the horse's mouth. You literally cannot get more official than that.

  • [-]
  • Devam13
  • 1 Points
  • 14:01:45, 6 June

Well.. It does not make a huge difference for me since I always play single player because Minigames-servers etc. don't appeal to me and I like survival more than anything.

The only good servers are the small whitelisted SMP servers IMO and I am not whitelisted in any..

But I definitely do support this change.

  • [-]
  • MoodyBanana
  • 0 Points
  • 14:45:50, 6 June

I feel it is alright to donate for like a [VIP] near your name and coloured names, which isn't an advantage in my eyes. But when people donate on hardcore servers for "god" armor is very unfair.

  • [-]
  • pabechan
  • 2 Points
  • 15:22:53, 6 June

Oh my, are there "hardcode" servers like that nowadays? :(

  • [-]
  • SuperWizard68
  • 0 Points
  • 15:43:57, 6 June

I fully support Mojang for this. For all of the whiners, you don't realize that "re-distributing" (for lack of a better word) Mojangs work and charging for parts of it is against the EULA. Personally, I don't think it is right or as fun to pay for ranks, rather than achieving them.

  • [-]
  • WrathBorne711
  • 1 Points
  • 16:03:26, 6 June

Oh I love servers that have ranks that give you stuff, like VIP and stuff like that, you could buy them, but instead they also let you earn it.

  • [-]
  • SuperWizard68
  • 1 Points
  • 16:11:18, 6 June

I don't see the point in the VIP stuff. What's it even do, give you commands?

  • [-]
  • WrathBorne711
  • 1 Points
  • 16:15:27, 6 June

Bragging rights for 12 year olds basically.

  • [-]
  • FalseRebellion
  • 2 Points
  • 15:33:07, 6 June

Mojang is allowed to do whatever they want to. It's their game, and they have the legal and moral right to stop people from earning money off of their work. I'm not a fan of Pay-To-Win servers, and I think even without this whole EULA thing, they need to change their server model. It's just not fair. Mojang is trying to prevent Pay-To-Win servers, which is great. But there are a lot of things to consider. Servers such as Mineplex and PlayMindcrack come to my mind specifically. On Mineplex you are able to buy/"donate for" a rank that unlocks many more kits for minigames. This rank also allows for aesthetic changes in hubs. The more ranks may offer a slight advantage over others, but nothing major. The visual changes are harmless. Big servers, regardless of whether or not they are Pay-To-Win, cost a lot of money to run, whether people want to admit it or not. Through actually hosting the server, to paying staff, there's a lot of expenses. These expenses are just too much for server owners to pay out of pocket. Keep in mind that I am talking about the big servers here, the minigame ones that have thousands of players on at a time. Mojang, while taking away the ability to sell things, is still allowing players to donate to the server, albeit they receive nothing in return. This is a very good concept in theory, and for small or medium sizes servers that have a more mature community. But most people just won't be willing to "donate" and get nothing for it. Even a cool visual effect isn't allowed. For those of you saying things like, "well my server has been up for 4 years and never taken money," or "we rely solely off of pure donations," sure that's great. But it's great for your server. Not every server is like yours, and quite frankly every server has a unique way of operating effectively. I've owned a public server that averaged around 30 people on at a time. We ran the server with money we got from players buying ranks that give them certain perks. Nothing in a Play-To-Win style, but just simple things that thanked them for helping out the server. Even these things won't be able to be done anymore. Just because a server sells ranks or perks doesn't mean it's Pay-To-Win, which is something a lot of people are missing. Mojang is honestly being pretty bold with this, even if they have every right to do so. I personably never expected this for them, given their rather relaxed thoughts on YouTube and these servers in the past years. I'm against Pay-To-Win, but if Mojang goes through with this, a lot of innocent servers will shut down if they can't find a way to get money.

  • [-]
  • Lance_lake
  • 1 Points
  • 17:15:20, 6 June

> Mojang is allowed to do whatever they want to. It's their game, and they have the legal and moral right to stop people from earning money off of their work.

Would you be ok with a car company saying, "You are not allowed to make money using this car that you bought"? It is their work after all.

I know.. I know.. You will say, "You pay for a license to use it". Ok then, would you be ok with them saying I can't lease a car to use for making money?

  • [-]
  • Youngy798
  • 1 Points
  • 16:05:40, 6 June

It seems pretty simple

  • You can accept donations and payments for this not included in the original game, eg custom commands, plugins etc!

You can NOT

-Make people pay for access to items included in the game, eg command blocks, diamonds, xp etc

  • [-]
  • godmin
  • 1 Points
  • 17:14:49, 6 June

I don't think you're right. The way erik was wording things was such that you can only accept money if it has absolutely no impact on gameplay whatsoever. At all.

The only acceptable ways to earn money (according to the possibly upcoming EULA) are pay2play (to get whitelisted you pay), or pure donations that have no impact on ANY mechanic in game.