Just how offensive are slurs, really? r/videos debates, Louis CK and South Park are invoked, one user employs the "gay friend" defense (np.reddit.com)
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210 ups - 80 downs = 130 votes
286 comments submitted at 16:31:58 on Jun 4, 2014 by xEidolon
Wait, seriously? As a heterosexual male I've been called a faggot in earnest anger and humiliation hundreds of times. That's public elementary, middle, and high school. In public as an adult, too. Folks say it to straight guys the same way it's said to gays, too, "Hey ya fuckin' gay sissy stop being gay!" Most guys get that at one point or another. A kid kept calling me a fag in elementary school till I finally turned around and clocked him. I got in trouble but he never did it again. You have to learn how to deal with bullies.
Really? You've been stabbed with a screwdriver because you're a "faggot"? You've been told "Fags like you need to die" by your own grand mother and then spit on? Having your brother, flesh and blood, say to you "I don't want a faggot for a brother"? The word faggot is a terrible insult, and I am sorry you were called that. It hurts, trust me I know. But please try to understand that when people call me a faggot they are purposely ostracizing me because I like some types of people. I honestly do understand why some people think its just a word, because to them it isn't a smear on your identity. A lot of very dear people to me see me as "that faggot". Its more than a word it's an idea that gay people are some how inferior and not worthy of being family. People who use the word Faggot in an insulting meaning are continuing the legacy that gay is an insult. That somehow liking different people is a horrible and shameful thing. I would love for us as a society to be able to move past what it means. But right now using the word Faggot is no different than using the word Nigger. It's a degrading remark that despite your experiences with it, it can be harmful.
Imagine this, a young gay boy is in intermediate school. He knows he's gay but doesn't know how to handle it. One day he hears someone say "God that kid is such a faggot.". The bully in this instance is using faggot as an insult, as something that you shouldn't be. The gay kid doesn't know what faggot is so he googles it and finds out it means people who like the same gender. Now what does this kid think? He has the idea that being gay is wrong and bad. He associates being gay with wrong because his peers think so.
I hear you, it's not an all-encompassing sort of thing for a straight guy, but it's still hurtful like you're saying. But being called a faggot, even if you're straight, is the same kind of hurt that gay guys feel, I think. Especially if you're a straight dude and an introvert, or weird, or whatever. It's a large part of what drove the Columbine kids to go on their shooting spree. In high school, for instance, I had a guy sit behind me in a math class (one of the ones run by the PE teacher) and he and his buddies used to lean over and whisper shit all the time. "Hey I bet your a fag. When a guy fucks you in ass, do you like it? Or do you like sucking dick more?" Over and over. And in the quad, too, with other jocks saying similar stuff cause I wore black and was a goofy teen. I've felt that fear and anger, not to the same degree by any means since my situation wasn't all encompassing, but I know the feeling well. I've also been in California all my life and it sounds like you're in a place that's more conservative, with a conservative family (my condolences) which makes your situation 1000x more difficult. That's a tough spot to be in and I can't imagine what it's like.
BTW the scenario you put up there is how I found out about the word faggot. A kid down the street kept calling me that to taunt me, so I called him a faggot. He did the whole "You don't even know what that means." I didn't and this was before google so I asked my friends later, got a lot of different answers, and then asked my sister who explained it to me and told me it was a bad word.
> being called a faggot, even if you're straight, is the same kind of hurt that gay guys feel, I think.
Is it the same thing when a white guy gets called the n-word, too? Or does it lose it's bite because at the end of the day you know you're not who that word was meant for, you know you go home and no one is thinking that about you, it's just a nasty word, one which invokes a sentiment, a prejudice and implications about how other people are always going to view who it applies to and judge them and try to hurt them, how they have done it in the past, how they will continue to do it, and how it's not something that can ever really be escaped, but that person just isn't you?
Slurs like that aren't just words. They're something that minorities have to live with every day, they're every nasty thing any bigot has every done to them, said to them, hurt them with - they're a story of how everyone in your group is systematically held down or discriminated against, they're that night you were held down and beaten while that word was shouted.
And you're here trying to say that when that word is thrown at you that it's the same thing? Like you could have any fucking idea at all? Straight guys own that word now? It's their job to tell gays that they shouldn't be offended by it, that they are reclaiming a word even as it's still used in hate? Dude, what could be more pompous, what could be more callous, what could be more blatantly dishonest and yes, homophobic than that? Fuck off, bro, you don't own that word, you can't, it's not yours to use because the way you throw it around so casually you've forgotten what it means if you ever even really knew at all.
[deleted]
Yo, better call your hipster friends because you're going to need a fixie to get anywhere backpedaling like that.
Damn, gotta say that's actually a funny comeback. I have to give you credit for it.
You're still an idiot, but I appreciate the wit.
> Damn, gotta say that's actually a funny comeback.
I know, I have been fishing around for a chance use it. Figured a thread like this would work.
Hey you like comedy? All I can ever do at issues like this are rage at them, but I heard a comedy podcast recently where Comedian Todd Glass was talking a lot about being in the closet and coming out and dealing with the emotions and self hate and especially how people often try to cloak their own homophobia and how angry that makes him, and hell he puts it a lot better than I ever do. Give it a listen, maybe if you're into it. It's funny for one, but there's some real human moments in there.
http://www.earwolf.com/episode/shed-busting/
> But being called a faggot, even if you're straight, is the same kind of hurt that gay guys feel.
I know it's the internet and people rarely change their minds on the internet but please please please please understand that this is so so so so wrong.
I know it's the internet and people rarely read beyond the first two sentences of anything but please please please please read the rest of the paragraph next time:
> I've also been in California all my life and it sounds like you're in a place that's more conservative, with a conservative family (my condolences) which makes your situation 1000x more difficult. That's a tough spot to be in and I can't imagine what it's like.
I don't see how that's relevant. You'll have to explain it to me. There's a huge difference between being disparaged by being called gay and being disparaged because you are gay.
It's a matter of degrees. Dude said:
>Heterosexuals will never know what it feels like when people on your own team, people you are suppose to trust and win together with, call you a faggot and then ostracize you from your sport
And I disagreed with that point because faggot is used against gay and straight alike, and you don't have to be gay to understand the power of words or discrimination to some degree when you have a bunch of jocks saying it and beating you up because you're different. I understand that feeling he has to a degree. It's a point of empathy. I'm not saying my experience was equal to his, I'm not saying my plight as a straight dude is the same as the plight of a gay dude growing up in a family and social environment that didn't like gays. I'm saying that there are straight dudes out there who were bullied using the same slurs and tactics, especially in sports. That was one of the motivating factors in the Columbine shooting.
sigh So you really don't understand the difference between being disparaged by being called gay and being disparaged because you are gay.
le sigh Yeah I guess. My world is filled with grey areas and nuance. I don't know where I went wrong. You're right. I have no idea what gay people go through and I shouldn't even try to relate on any level to any degree. If you could explain to me how I can adopt your black and white mindset to everything in the world I'd be much happier. Dumber, but happier.
I don't think you understand what nuance is. Nuance is when two things look very similar but have very subtle differences. What you're doing is looking at two rather dissimilar things and saying they're the same thing.
>But being called a faggot, even if you're straight, is the same kind of hurt that gay guys feel.
That is what you said. You said being called a faggot is the same kind of hurt whether you're gay or straight. Holy shit it's not.
If you really do want to be sympathetic instead of just trying to co-opt the pain you should acknowledge that gay people experience a completely different kind of pain as a minority.
When someone calls you a faggot, there's still an escape because you aren't one. Sure they're being mean and that sucks but at the end of the day, you can still get married and show affection to your wife in public without getting awful stares or even beaten up. Ultimately the insult stops for you when those bullies go away.
For a gay person, when someone calls them a faggot, there's no escape. Even when the bullies go away the insult is still everywhere in society. There's no falsness to the insult because society has validated it. It's not just the bullying that gay people put up with, it's the permanence of the insult.
It's really hard to explain the constant feeling of being "other" to someone who isn't and I understand a lot of people genuinely try to understand and be sympathetic and I appreciate it. But trying to co-opt the feeling and tell us you understand our pain because you feel it to is just...fucking insulting. No you don't. You understand the pain as a window of time when you're being bullied. The pain gay people experience isn't a window...for most of us it's constant and never ending which makes it incredibly different.
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I don't think we are disagree here. I think we both think using the word faggot as an insult is a bad thing and a mean thing to do. If friends call each other faggots then that's between those friends. But when it's used in a way to hurt and insult others, that's when people start getting offended. I think this says it best abut getting offended.
>The problem with sexist, racist, homophobic, transphobic, classist, ableist, etc., remarks and “jokes” is not that they’re offensive, but that by relying for their meaning on harmful cultural narratives about privileged and marginalized groups they reinforce those narratives, and the stronger those narratives are, the stronger the implicit biases with which people are indoctrinated are. That’s real harm, not just “offense.”
Thank you for carrying on the discussion reasonably. Really, I appreciate it. I have more to say on the word overall because the word has other meanings that are completely casual in other native English-speaking countries that other slurs don't (Nigger, as far as I know, has a sole definition) and because I've heard many gay people use it to describe other, more flamboyant gays. But that's for another time and place. This is a topic I'd rather be discussing with you, or whomever, in person over a beer where we can get a real sense of where the other person is coming from. Internet discourse, especially on this site, is really starting to suck.
I think it's all about context and how the person is trying to use it. For example, if a person say "Hey let me borrow a fag" it has a clear distinction from someone who say "You're a fag" hatefully.
> and because I've heard many gay people use it to describe other, more flamboyant gays
Hi I'm gay. Those gay people are assholes. Hope that cleared it up!
>But being called a faggot, even if you're straight, is the same kind of hurt that gay guys feel, I think.
Ha no.
Seriously dude, this is one of those moments where you should shut the fuck up and be educated. If you have never been ostracized, by your own friends and family!, about your own sexuality than what do you think you know about it?
> Seriously dude, this is one of those moments where you should shut the fuck up and be educated.
It's peep show level cringe omg
bupbupbup beedup beedup
bupbupbup beedup beedup
doo dee doo dee doo
You thought I was a mega pedo?
Is your username "strugle" because you struggle to read and comprehend? Does reading the first two sentences of anything make you tired, cranky, and self-righteous? This is one of those moments where you should shut the fuck up and read the rest of what I wrote. You must be a redditor because you read two sentences that you don't agree with, out of context, and then you hop on your mighty, ignorant high horse to get on my case.
No I haven't been ostracized to the same degree, BUT THAT'S WHY I SAID THAT:
> I've also been in California all my life and it sounds like you're in a place that's more conservative, with a conservative family (my condolences) which makes your situation 1000x more difficult. That's a tough spot to be in and I can't imagine what it's like.
> I've felt that fear and anger, not to the same degree by any means since my situation wasn't all encompassing
Stupid. Fucking. Asshole.