/u/FuckingKike spawns 114 angry child comments in /r/tumblrinaction "Oh look, the oppression Olympics have come to /r/tumblrinaction." (np.reddit.com)
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228 ups - 80 downs = 148 votes
396 comments submitted at 14:52:21 on Jun 4, 2014 by WelcomeToNightVale
The difference is that people being killed for being trans is a real thing that really happens.
So it's basically a "lynch the negro" joke. You can say you're just being ironic, but c'mon man, it's not cool.
Well it's not cool to say "die cis scum" either. Two wrongs don't make a right sure but it's hypocritical to say this is bad and the other one isn't.
They're both dumb, but die trans scum is doubly fucked up
Why can't it just be that both are fucked up and shouldn't be said. Keep what is acceptable and what isn't simple.
Because trans people actually get killed for being trans.
As I said in another comment. Just because "die trans scum" has more weight behind it due to attacks on trans people. Doesn't make saying "die cis scum" suddenly ok. They are both wrong.
Nobody is arguing that point with you.
shutupclarence is
Ok, whatever you say. You're the expert.
You don't need to be an expert to know that joking about killing entire groups of people is wrong.
Ok professor, you know what's best.
You don't need to be a professor either.
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Oh come on. Cisgendered people are not killed by transpeople. Transpeople are killed by cisgendered people.
Let's stick to the facts of the world. Both are hate speech. But only one corresponds to violent real-world consequences.
I'd change my tune, obviously, if transpeople started bashing cisgendered persons for fun. But that's not the case, so...
Just because they aren't being killed because of it doesn't make it fine. Yeah saying "die trans scum" has a bit more weight behind it due to the real problem of transpeople getting murdered but that doesn't give people a pass to say "die cis scum" or make them any less of a hypocrite if they do so.
I'm not actually arguing, in this or any other thread, that the phrase "die cis scum" is anything other than hate speech.
What I'm saying is that /u/Weefs and other people are correct -- one is more messed up because it corresponds to real-world violence while the other doesn't.
That doesn't imply that the former isn't messed up.
Exactly. Both are fucked up things to say, but let's not put them on an equal basis.
It's these gross generalizations like "but both parties are t3h same!111" that accomplish nothing.
I agree the one is more messed up but they are both a shitty thing to say.
anyone who actually gets offended at die cis scum and thinks its comparable to die trans scum needs to take a hard look at themselves and what they are saying.
Did I say they are exactly equal?
I am just saying it's hypocritical to find one ok and one not. Is it so hard to just not use "die ____ scum"?
>I am just saying it's hypocritical to find one ok and one not.
Then I'm a hypocrite because I think die cis scum is really funny (mostly because of how upset people get about it) and I think die trans scum is really fucked up.
Well you pretty much have the same viewpoint as whoever who put "die trans scum" then. Because they likely did it just because they find it funny how angry people get about it.
cool, and I guess they go around calling people nigger for similar reasons? still fucked up.
Well I doubt they say it to anyone's face. But yeah people say shitty things just for the shock factor.
sounds like a mature thing to do.
The irony.
I'm not going to justify serious usage of the "die _____ scum" line. But, from the perspective of a member of a culture that quite frequently get assaulted or have nasty things said about them, "die cis scum" can be a nice wasy of deconstructing gender narrative by pointing out that trans people and cis people are both the same, people who have set genders that are beyond their control. If you are offended by "die cis scum," then you understand why judging people based on their gender is wrong, and probably won't go on to turn hatred back onto trans people, because "die cis scum" and "die tranny scum" are exactly equal, but only one of these is historically and routinely used sincerely.
Do you think someone who's offended by being discriminated against for being Cis will in turn not understand why being discriminated against for being Trans is wrong? I actually think so in the heavy dosages that tumblr tends to give out, with the lack of context to back it up, it could end up that way. Do I actually think there are people that mean to discriminate against cis people? Yes, but I think that these individuals are also discriminating against trans people in the same process because they imply that you can be at fault for being cis, and if you are at fault you have agency, and if you can choose to be Cis, I could also choose to be cis, which I can't.
I'm willing to give a lot more leeway to the group who is routinely victimized because of their bodies.
And targeting a group themselves would somehow help this stop? Or is it more likely to alienate the other group instead, fixing nothing and maybe even making things worse.
Saying immature things like "die cis scum" hurts their own movement. It should be stopped for trans people.
I'm not here to police what is essentially a joke made by an oppressed people in an attempt to deal with a trend of victimization based on their identity.
The fact that they flip it as a way of dealing with the constant threat of violence they live under makes sense to me.
Its very understandable why they're angry. I just think its counter productive.
I don't think it's my place to tell other folks if their movement is productive or not.
Are you going to change how you treat trans people based on this? Because if you are, well, you weren't very committed to their rights in the first place, and if you're not, it's not counterproductive.
>Because if you are, well, you weren't very committed to their rights in the first place, and if you're not, it's not counterproductive.
See, this is the problem here. Tolerance isn't a black-and-white issue. People aren't either full bigots or completely accepting. If someone was neutral or even tolerant of trans people, they could still have their views damaged by die cis scum and make them more weary towards trans* people.
If the world really operated the way you think it is queer people wouldn't have a problem with die cis scum.
Nah.
> oppressed people
I don't think we can say for sure, but I'd be willing to bet majority of people who have used the phrase "die cis scum" aren't trans, but rather cis people who need an excuse to be a dick.
"I imagine this to be true because it supports all the other bullshit I want to be true."
Good jorb imagining that thing, friend.
It's not really any more uncool to say than die cis scum. The fact that one has happened and the other (likely) has not doesn't make the other any less hateful or disgusting.
>It's not really any more uncool to say than die cis scum.
Yes, it is, because it inverts the power dynamic that exists even to this day: we're not surprised when people are killed for being trans. That's not shocking that there are people out there who will do that.
You can pretend that the threat to a person's life for being trans is the same as the threat to their live for being cis, but it's not true.
So yes, if you take it in the context of society and the power that cis people have over trans people, then one is definitely more hateful.
The appropriate response to an ironic statement like "die cis scum" which is a joke about how powerless you really are in society, at its root, is not to flip the joke to make it about how powerful you are in society. That's a jerk move.
That's all just a faux-academic way of saying "it's okay to be an asshole to this group, but it's not okay to be an asshole to that group."
Naw, it's the difference between a rape joke that makes fun of rapists vs. one that makes fun of rape victims, as I pointed out to another poster. Power matters.
Except that cis people are not inherently bad, and rapists are. Your analogy is incredibly bad, either that or you really believe cis people are inherently guilty of something.
Jesus, Redditors cannot get their head around analogies.
POWERFUL GROUP making fun of OPPRESSED GROUP==pretty bad, you're just rubbing in the fact that they're dealing with a shitty existence already.
OPPRESSED GROUP making fun of POWERFUL GROUP==a common, widespread way of dealing with oppression.
edit:
Let's make it something so simple you can't misunderstand it:
DINOSAUR EAT YOUR MOM==SAD, YOUR MOM SO LITTLE AND FRAIL COMPARED TO T-REX, T-REX HAVE SO MANY ADVANTAGES, T-REX WRITE VERY FOUNDING DOCUMENTS OF SOCIETY TO EXCLUDE YOUR MOM SYSTEMATICALLY FROM STRUCTURES OF POWER, CREATING LEGACY OF YOUR MOM UNABLE TO CLAIM AGENCY WITHIN SOCIETY
YOUR MOM EAT DINOSAUR==FUNNY, BECAUSE FINALLY T-REX GET COMEUPPANCE
You're missing the part where calling for the death of innocent human beings is inherently not funny, regardless of context. I don't care if it's "common and widespread", it's fucking wrong.
Your dinosaur analogy is shitty as well despite your best effort, because it is about individuals. I don't see why cis people as a whole need to "get their comeuppance", a shared identity does not mean shared guilt.
>calling for the death of innocent human beings is inherently not funny
You'd think that until the first time somebody laughed to the announcement of yet another My Little Pony line of toys with the response that the only solution is the death of all western culture, full Sharia law now. I laughed pretty hard.
>Your dinosaur analogy is shitty as well despite your best effort, because it is about individuals
Did you miss the part where T-Rex Jefferson, slave-owner, codified his own position of status and power into the founding of the society? Because I was pretty sure to include that.
>a shared identity does not mean shared guilt.
I agree, doesn't mean white people aren't going to get shiiiiiiiit all over once we're in a minority status in the US. You know a great reason to work to end bigotry and racism in our time? Your grandkids will be the first generation to whom "honky" is a genuine racial slur that contributes to an oppressive anti-white sentiment unless we can figure out that it's all of our problem right now.
I'm not having kids, so honestly I don't give a fuck, because I'm a white dude making money. But your grandkids? Fucked.
>Did you miss the part where T-Rex Jefferson, slave-owner, codified his own position of status and power into the founding of the society? Because I was pretty sure to include that.
T-Rex Jefferson is an asshole, and it would be funny if he got his comeuppance. But applying the same logic to an immutable group identity does not work.
>I agree, doesn't mean white people aren't going to get shiiiiiiiit all over once we're in a minority status in the US. You know a great reason to work to end bigotry and racism in our time? Your grandkids will be the first generation to whom "honky" is a genuine racial slur that contributes to an oppressive anti-white sentiment unless we can figure out that it's all of our problem right now.
Weird tangent about white people all of a sudden, but I guess I'll address it. Isn't eliminating non-oppressive anti-white sentiment part of preventing an oppressive anti-white sentiment in the future? People involved with social justice have told me often that jokes are a powerful force in shaping opinions and preconceived notions (this is I believe the standard response to the "but it's a joke" argument often used to defend racist and sexist joke), so it stands to reason that speaking out against anti-white jokes is a good thing.
By the way, I'm planning to have mixed race kids, so barring any one-drop rules, I think I'm good. Your scenario regarding minority whites reminded me of a Louis CK bit, were you intentionally referencing that?
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Ahhhhh yes, let's be extremely condescending to someone who disagrees with you. Airtight approach there.
We understand you just fine. Just completely and utterly disagree. And your Trex analogy is beyond retarded.
How bout we don't tell any entire group of people to die, and both are wrong to do (regardless of severity of wrongness).
Rapists are not a "POWERFUL GROUP", and certainly not in a parallel to cis people. What.
They certainly are powerful in the sense that they exercise power over their victims in the context of the attack, and in the psychological suffering of the victims afterwards.
But cis people don't operate the same way. Not even close.
Sure, the ideal of cis supremacy that most cultures in the world embrace is no doubt problematic, but the cis ruling classes of the world don't operate like a rapist does.
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> DINOSAUR EAT YOUR MOM==SAD, YOUR MOM SO LITTLE AND FRAIL COMPARED TO T-REX
I think I love you.
I have loved you for so long from afar, finally our day has come. It's just tragic that I'll be buried under all these downvotes, doomed to suffocate under an avalanche of Hurt Bro Feelings.
You've been given a badge of honour, my friend. Wear it proudly. Downvotes are real life upvotes.
Save your love for a functioning human being.
Ease up there, Tex. You're in a nosedive.
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Only if you consider all of one group to be rapists, and all of another group to be rape victims.
You're saying our society is totally cool with trans people, and that it's only individuals in our society who give them shit?
Because if not, if there are some pretty widespread problems in our society around how we treat trans people (and I think there are) then it makes sense in that context.
I love how you read my post, construct a hyperbolic and flawed statement only tangentially related to what I wrote, and then ask me "you're saying xyz?"
Who does that work on? I'm not letting you sheepdog me into voicing some reductio ad absurdum that is completely different than what I wrote.
>I'm not letting you sheepdog
Yo keep your sex stuff to yourself, beardo
Sex is the first thing that came to your mind when you read the word "sheepdog". Think about that for a moment.
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TIL cis people are all horrible violent people who deserve to be ridiculed and ostracized.
Nice analogy there kiddo.
I think it's neat how you figured out a way to pretend that there's any realistic possibility that cis people could ever be ridiculed and ostracized within our culture.
Wait, I wrote "neat," I mean to write "tiresomely predictable."
Are you unaware that trans people are actually ridiculed and ostracized every single day?
Dude, you just fucking compared cis people to racists. Don't throw a shitfit and say you're untouchable when somebody objects to you taking a dump everywhere.
> pretend that there's any realistic possibility that cis people could ever be ridiculed
????
said the guy who just likened jokes about cis people to humor involving rapists 2 whole posts ago
>and ostracized within our culture.
Of course they're not, but that doesn't give you the right to act like a little shit. Is it okay for a kid to taunt and bully out of a rich school boy just because he's poorer than him? There's no reason to go out of your way to shit on another human being just because he or she is more advantaged than you. None. Criticizing? Absolutely. But there's a huge fucking difference between honest criticisms and being an inflated diaper to somebody to put the down. I thought this was already discussed by grade school.
>Are you unaware that trans people are actually ridiculed and ostracized every single day?
OH NO SHIT, thanks for educating ME, a GENDERFLUID PERSON, this.
Well hot damn! So I guess finding a problem with "cis jokes are like rapist jokes" makes me suddenly unknown about trans issues, even though I've been queer for A QUARTER OF A CENTURY.
...holy goodness.
>Dude, you just fucking compared cis people to racists.
Well, in the sense that all white people are benefiting in ways small and large from a legacy of living in a racist society...yeah, so?
>Don't throw a shitfit and say you're untouchable
So now you want to bring caste into it, as if this conversation wasn't hard enough.
>said the guy who just likened jokes about cis people to humor involving rapists 2 whole posts ago
And if that hurt your feelings, you need to toughen up. Here's the real deal: cis people are a threat to trans people. Who do you think is murdering trans people for being trans? Bigots, sure, but cis bigots.
Now, do you feel threatened by trans people? Probably not.
You are in a dominant position within this society. It's okay, I know you didn't ask to be. But acknowledge it, at least.
>that doesn't give you the right to act like a little shit
When black folks make fun of white racism, is that acting like a little shit?
When a rape victim questions the masculinity of her assailant, because she feels safe to do so, is she being a little shit?
Accept this: it's okay when an oppressed class makes fun of their oppressor, because if it wasn't, that would be one more way that they were oppressed.
Good jorb on being queer and yet completely misunderstanding how power dynamics work in American society. Try harder.
Avoiding the questions, telling me ironically to toughen up, generalizing, assuming that genderfluid people have privilege over society [wat], false equivalencies, bringing unrelated topics, more false equivalencies, victimizing yourself, queer shaming, and completely failing to grasp a knowledge of what you're preaching on.
Kk I'm diagnosing this one as a troll.
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>So yes, if you take it in the context of society and the power that cis people have over trans people, then one is definitely more hateful.
Yah, but I'm not. I'm taking it in the context of people saying dumb things on the internet. And even so, no, that wouldn't make hate (an emotion) more powerful. That makes no sense. More offensive, perhaps, but not more hateful.
>The appropriate response to an ironic statement like "die cis scum" which is a joke about how powerless you really are in society, at its root, is not to flip the joke to make it about how powerful you are in society. That's a jerk move.
I'm assuming that he's not flipping the joke around to "make it about how powerful you are in society", but to show the people who use the phrase "die cis scum" how hateful their words sound when directed back at them. But the guy does seem like a dick, so I could be wrong.
Regardedless, you don't have to look at everything through the lense of sociology. Not every thing is about "power structures" and crap; there are other ways to view the world and interpret things. It doesn't really make much sense to apply sociology to a single person either.
> I'm taking it in the context of people saying dumb things on the internet.
Which exists within the context of a society where trans people are regularly killed because of who they are, and cis people are not similarly targeted. You can say "This is the context that it matters, and only this one" but that doesn't make it so.
>I'm assuming that he's not flipping the joke around to "make it about how powerful you are in society", but to show the people who use the phrase "die cis scum" how hateful their words sound when directed back at them. But the guy does seem like a dick, so I could be wrong.
I have no question that that's why he's doing it. It still doesn't make it not a joke that perpetuates a constant threat that trans people live under in our society.
>Regardedless, you don't have to look at everything through the lense of sociology
This is just a way of saying "Regardless, you don't have to take trans people's experiences into account when talking about them."
I get it. You really like the idea of cis people dying. Who wouldn't! Kill all the bastards, that's what I say. Every single one of them (and I do mean every. Single. One) has strangled a trans baby to death in order to qualify to be cis, right? Why not turn the tables on those oppressive bastards?
Stop hiding behind your joking defense! Own up to the fact that you want to kill cis people! Be proud of your bloodthirstiness, because cis people deserve it.
lol u want a hug gramma
> The appropriate response to an ironic statement like "die cis scum"
From what I've seen, it's not so much an "ironic statement" as it is people being very angry at a certain demographic.
But okay, lets say "die cis scum" gets off the hook because it's ironic and isn't actually about killing people... you realize his "die trans scum" is also ironic and not actually about killing people, right? I mean it's certainly not "about how powerful you are in society"
Either it's ok to jokingly wish death upon people, or it's not. Deeming one acceptable and one not is exactly the point that joke sets out to make.
>you realize his "die trans scum" is also ironic and not actually about killing people, right?
I do realize that, but I also realize that it's a "joke" made in the context of a society where trans people are in fact killed for their identities, which makes flipping this around to joke around about a people who are killed for their identity in real life about killing them for their identity "ironically," which in the end is just really shitty.
>Either it's ok to jokingly wish death upon people, or it's not.
It's the difference between a rape joke that makes fun of the rapist vs. one that makes fun of someone who got raped. If you can't see that difference, I can't help you.
The difference between a rape joke making fun of a rapist and a joke like die cis scum or something similar is that a rapist is a terrible person for doing what they did and a cis person is kind of just born cis and that doesn't have any bearing on if they'e an amazing person or a horrible one. If you joke about people getting raped you're making fun of victims and you're a trashcan, and if you joke about killing people for something that hurts no one and they can't control in the first place you're also a trashcan.
Kill whitey.
You're so wrong but you keep going, come on.
I don't care if reddit thinks I'm wrong.
Reddit also has big communities of people who think women are emotional children, or that making fun of fat people is somehow helping them.
I'm not here on reddit to please anybody but myself. A bunch of young white dudes who are comfortable with their lot in life don't have much to teach me about what an oppressed class like trans people deal with. I'm fine with the downvotes.
>I don't care if reddit thinks I'm wrong.
Newsflash, people would still see you wrong if you argued anywhere else.
>A bunch of young white dudes
I'm not endorsing TiA or saying their existence is right, but I'm pretty sure you're keeping their generators churning with your stupid generalizations and wild accusations
>Newsflash, people would still see you wrong if you argued anywhere else.
That's not what the crowd of erudite fellows who meet weekly in your mom's vagina think.
>I'm not endorsing TiA or saying their existence is right, but I'm pretty sure you're keeping their generators churning with your stupid generalizations and wild accusations
WILD, WILD ACCUSATION SIRRAH.
That you even think these tumblrsexuals are actually trans and that tia's mocking them is oppression is just pathetic. Calm down before you have an aneurism, serious Sally.
>That you even think these tumblrsexuals are actually trans and that tia's mocking them is oppression is just pathetic
One of the first and most common responses in any struggle for civil rights is for members of the dominant group to call out the authenticity of identity and grievance of the oppressed. So good job getting that out of the way, I guess.
Ya, I sure am part of the dominant group, alright. Them gay amputees running the world. Guess I need to identify as a demiboy lithsexual before I know anything about anything, right?
Maybe, I'm not here to police you, only come Christlike and say things that upset the pharisees.
You can see the signs of my martyrdom in my downvotes.
Fuck your "power dynamic", just don't tell people they should die because of whatever sexual/racial group they belong to. Both are wrong to do. Both are hateful.
I'm on the side of not telling people to die. Controversial, I know, but I stick by it.
>Fuck your "power dynamic"
If you don't fuck the power dynamic, it's just going to keep fucking you.
>just don't tell people they should die
This is like saying "Well I GUESS YOU APPROVE OF CHICKENS CROSSING ROADS, THEN, ASSHOLE."
Didnt say YOU were doing anything. I'm just saying, telling someone "Die Cis Scum!" is hateful. Telling someone "Die Trans Scum!" is also hateful.
And I'm saying the difference between them is about power. And there's nothing like having power to make people blind to how power relationships work.
Power or not, hate is still hate, and telling someone they should die because of who they are is still fucking wrong. Severity of wrongness is one thing, and yes "Die trans scum!" carries more weight behind it, obviously, but they are both still hateful attacks, and one of those terms being having less institutional power doesn't excuse it as something ok to do. It's still wrong.
>Power or not, hate is still hate
The hatred of the powerful for the powerless is absolutely nothing like, and does not arise from the same place as the hatred for the powerful from the powerless.
The personal is the political, and there's no separating the two.
You may want to escape context, but that's about as doable as escaping history, because the two are the same. Our history is our context, and history hasn't been kind to the powerless.
It's still hating on an entire group of people for the actions they personally may not have been a part of, for something they have no control of. It's still hateful.
Also, love how we're talking and you are just assuming I'm a white cis male, telling me I'm "blind to power relationships" and I want to "escape context".
YO JUST DONT TELL PEOPLE THEY SHOULD DIE FOR WHO THEY ARE, ITS NOT FUCKING NICE TO DO. I'm fucking out. Enough of the SJW guilt-shaming privilege-checking original sin shit parade for me for one day.
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Nah, you're just really really attached to the privilege of threatening people's lives. So much so you'll make a bunch of fallacious nonsensical arguments to defend it.
dubl lol
What?
It's someone responding to "we should lynch whitey" by mockingly turning it around and saying, "and while we're at it, lynch a nigger, too!". It plays on the idea that people are taking death threats lightly. The intent isn't offensive in context.
> The intent isn't offensive in context.
Intent is not magic.
But they're better than absolutes.
This is such a shallow and moronic statement. Right up there with "trans women aren't biologically male".
Whatever you say.
So saying that things with one intended message but could be misunderstood, is as bad as transphobia? What?
That's not what they said. They said "intent isn't magic" which is meaningless sloganeering at it's worst. The quote I actually pulled from /u/1234five6's comment history.
>The intent isn't offensive in context.
You don't have to try to be racist or bigoted to accidentally spill out some incredibly racist or bigoted shit.
But its responding to bigotry with mock bigotry.
"Die cis scum" in the modern context is what comedians call "punching up," it's a disempowered person making fun of somebody or a class of somebodies with more social power.
"Die trans scum" is punching down: it's making a "joke" that happens to dovetail perfectly with a real, day-to-day threat trans people deal with.
You heard it here folks, die cis scum is the epitome of prime comedy!
Really? that's your takeaway from that post?
Jesus christ do they even teach reading comprehension in schools these days?
Hate speech is not an example of comedy FFS.
I'm tired, dad, and you're drunk, can we just go home already?