It Never Ends, This Is Our Life Now, Two X day 11 recap (self.SubredditDrama)
SubredditDrama
232 ups - 89 downs = 143 votes
So the mods have instituted a new policy that any comment complaining about 2X being default gets deleted.
Slutshaming, is it ok? One 2xer dares to say "Yes."
http://np.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/25sx2s/tiredofthetermslutshamingthetermyoure/chkidoz
2Xer posts about receiving a nice PM, comments accuse him of white knighting.
http://np.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/25sfo9/alotofpeoplehavebeengettinghatemail_on/chkanw0
http://np.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/25sfo9/alotofpeoplehavebeengettinghatemail_on/chkbwkd
"Whenever I talk to females I almost entirely avoid looking at them and normally either look at the sky or look at their feet." 2X is not sympathetic to his anxiety issues.
http://np.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/25slf0/ladieswhatstheworstinstanceofinequality_or/chkhgat
"Calling poor behavior "low class" is really problematic.", never go full tumblr.
http://np.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/25slf0/ladieswhatstheworstinstanceofinequality_or/chkhgh6?context=1
When a woman(?) posts a true(?) story of shitting herself in public one commentor mistakenly believes this is uncharacteristic of 2X.
http://np.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/25ts6f/soeveryonepoops_right/chkoyd4
A thoughtful debate on the prefix "As a man".
http://np.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/25si6v/somemenargumentssafespaces/chkbgye?context=1
"The facts show it: female CEOs are more likely than men to be fired" "I wonder if this can be attributed to performance instead of gender."
http://np.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/25t9hc/thefactsshowitfemaleceosaremorelikely/chkid3e
218 comments submitted at 14:15:11 on May 18, 2014 by bluemayhem
You heard it here first folks, being shy means you're a sexist!
You really see no issue with him purposely avoiding eye contact with women? That there's some underlying issue that he needs to work on? I used to be a lot more shy than I am now, but it was towards everybody, not just women. The fact that he singles them out is a pretty good indication he sees them as somehow different than men, even in a professional context. Either he thinks they're lesser or puts them on a pedestal
Some people are just awkward around the opposite gender. Calling them sexist is a huge overreaction and doesn't help anyone.
It's not like he's going around saying all women are stupid and are only good for cooking and cleaning, but if he's unable to make eye contact with women while having no problem making eye contact with men, he's definitely got some issues with women. Doesn't mean he hates women, but he does have some sort of problem with them, and he's definitely treating women and men differently
And throwing your hands up and saying "Well, some people are just _____" instead of looking at the root of the problem is somehow better? Saying they're a sexist (which only malicious_turtle did, everyone in the thread just said it was sexist behavior) isn't saying they're malicious, it says they're discriminating based on sex. No one said he's a bad person, just that it's something he should be working on changing instead of defending.
It's one thing if they're shy or bashful around a crush or even any woman in a situation where it would be appropriate for them to pursue a relationship, but if they literally can't look any woman in the eye then you really don't see how that's an issue that needs to be addressed?
Yeah it needs to be addressed by a therapist while being treated for anxiety. No one is glorifying being unable to talk to women, we are just saying calling him sexist is out of line and doesn't help anyone.
Again, no one called him sexist. They said it was sexist behavior, and by definition it clearly is. The root is clearly an issue with/othering of women. If the dude said he had anxiety issues that caused his inability to look women in the eye and claimed to be working on them, there would be nothing but positivity for him from me and probably most people in that thread. But that's not what he did, he used his issue to defend other people having that issue and claimed it was completely okay/normal. The same way I'm not okay with the women who claim it's fine/healthy to be terrified of all men, I'm not okay with this dude defending the "women r scary cos i might b creepy" mindset. He needs to work on him and coddling his issue by saying the behavior is something other than sexist does no good. Hell, he even said the reason he doesn't look women in the eye is because he was called creepy so many times. You think maybe he might be creepy? That's not something that should be defended. I have nothing but sympathy for him if he doesn't know how to act and he's working on changing that, but based on his comments I'm gonna guess that's not the case.
Do expect him to preface every comment with a list of his mental health issues and a disclaimer on how he's working on them? How about you read between the lines and exhibit a little empathy instead of having a knee jerk reaction. Do you really think "not coddling him" by calling him sexist for his social faux pas is really going to help him? There are constructive ways to say he is doing something absurd but that isn't one of them.
Also If I tell someone they act like an asshole its pretty much the same thing as calling them one so the distinction your trying to make between saying he behaves like a sexist and saying he is sexist doesn''t make much sense.
He didn't just not say he's working on them, he defended the behavior. How do you not get that? If he was in a thread about fixing anxiety I'd say that they were jumping down his throat, but it's a thread about sexist behavior where he's defending sexist behavior.
And saying that classifying someone behavior as something is the same as calling them that things is a downright tonedeaf lie. You really see no difference between calling someone a liar and saying they're lying? Between calling someone's actions evil and calling them evil? C'mon son.
>Again, no one called him sexist. They said it was sexist behavior,
You keep saying this. Please explain the functional difference...Because it feels like a cop-out to me.
If someone says you're lying, are they calling you a liar? Or did you lie once? Calling one behavior someone exhibits sexist isn't the same as calling them sexist because they can change that behavior. Calling them sexist is condemning them and saying sexism is part of what they are. I'm not a sexist, but I have done sexist stuff before (usually unknowingly). Then people call me out and I try to change. It's the difference between calling someone intentionally malicious or saying they accidentally did something harmful
>If someone says you're lying, are they calling you a liar? Or did you lie once? Calling one behavior someone exhibits sexist isn't the same as calling them sexist because they can change that behavior
So if someone isn't just exhibiting sexist behaviour(s), it's impossible for them to change it?
I'll cede the point. I just think the reaction to what is quite clearly a problem (which he admits) is misguided at best. Shame is rarely a good way of getting other people to change their ways.
>Then people call me out and I try to change.
I hope it's in some way that isn't the typical Tumblr/internet way, then. Because that kind of "calling out", I've never seen be helpful in any real way.
It's slightly pedantic, but language is important to how people percieve your arguments. I'm clarifying that it's just his behavior I'm calling sexist because a) I don't know him and b) I want to make it clear I think he can change it. That's all. I don't even think they're shaming him, did you read the responses? They were just explaining how they would feel if a guy avoided eye contact with them and why they feel it's wrong. No one called him names or said he was hopeless or anything.
And yes, I've been called out in aggressive ways if that's what you're implying. Sometimes I need a kick in the pants
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He's a sexist a cheat and a spy for the rebel alliance! Take him away!
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
If we label acting out (by not looking at coworkers) his own internalized shame "systemic sexual oppression", then by all means he's a sexist. Yes, he treats women differently because they have boobs. Is that the important issue, the point that his behavior isn't egalitarian?
If I know this type of person well -- I hope I do, since I volunteer locally to help young men like him -- he's suffering from incredible anxiety. You might even say, if you were so inclined, that he's suffering from the "patriarchal" social expectations of men and women in his life.
He's had very few romantic encounters in his life. People (and especially men, because testosterone is one hell of a hormone) like this tend to turn everyone into an "option" because they don't have enough experience with the opposite sex to know what they do and don't like. He can't treat everyone as sexless coworkers because his biology is screaming out to him for sex and some internalized social expectation is telling him that social worth derives from sexual conquest. He's really unsure of himself, fears being marked as "damaged" in the eyes of the opposite sex, and is ashamed at his inability to function in adult romantic situations. He does not know what he wants and he does not love himself.
And that is the type of person 2X is shaming without any hint of empathy. Do you not recognize how "problematic" it is for someone to disclose something so personal and be shot down by internet strangers? Do you not see how castigating him -- it's probably his fault, he's a sexist pig, the "creepy" shoe fits, he deserves the shame and anxiety that he suffers from -- is perpetuating his anxiety?
Are they trying to help? Seems to me that if his behavior contributes to sexual oppression of women then so does 2X's chastisement.
TL;DR You cure more "sexism" with honey than with vinegar.
I agree with everything you said with regards to him. I disagree with your interpretation of how he presented his post and 2X's reaction to it.
For him: The issue isn't that he has a problem, it's that he a) doesn't recognize the problem and he b) is defending other people who do the same thing.
For 2X: You need to take the thread in context. If he was in a sub/thread about people getting help with anxiety, then I would say yeah that's bullshit. But they were in a thread about sexist behavior, and the dude came in both defending sexist behavior and calling it not sexist. It's reasonable for them to correct that without considering all the backstory leading up to his comment.
They also didn't call him a sexist, they just tried to explain to him why that behavior is sexist. Pretty gently and reasonably too.
>I disagree with your interpretation of how he presented his post and 2X's reaction to it.
On second reading, yes, I definitely read this situation incorrectly and reacted (projected?) poorly. Fairly innocuous (if unhelpful) interaction.
>They also didn't call him a sexist, they just tried to explain to him why that behavior is sexist. Pretty gently and reasonably too.
I think where I'm coming from is that there's quite a bit of disgust and charged language directed at people with poor social skills. Whether it's people online or AFK, it'd be nice if people did their best to recognize someone's problem and help them through it instead of labeling them. Sexist behavior or not, it'd be a welcome change for people try to help the "creepy" individuals in their lives.
This guy needs more than the knowledge that his behavior is off-putting.
Holy second option bias batman! Are women not 'somehow different than men?'
Not in a professional, working context. There's nothing wrong about being shy around people you're trying to pursue, but if you can't suck it up and see people as something other than sexual objects even in a working/professional relationship, then there's something wrong with you. This goes for both sexes of course, but the person we're talking about is a man. For all intents and purposes, there should be no difference
Edit: I just realized the linked dude wasn't the one talking about a working context, but he said he literally never looks women in the eyes. So unless he's literally only around women in situations where it's appropriate to think he has a shot at pursuing them, then it's still a pretty big issue on his part. Being shy has to have a root, and if you're only shy towards women then there's a good chance you're othering them. Which is p damn sexist
You are assuming that shyness only correlates to romantically/sexually pursuing people, regardless of environment.
>Being shy has to have a root, and if you're only shy towards women then there's a good chance you're othering them.
This is one hell of an oversimplification, crafted specifically to support your world view. You really don't know what you are talking about.
If you can give me a plausible reason for him being too shy to look any woman in the eye but having no problem with men that doesn't involve seeing them as others, I'd be happy to listen. What would make them different outside of a sexual/romantic context?
Also, I gotta say again, I wouldn't be condemning this guy if he saw that he had anxiety issues and tried to work on them. There's no shame in having any sort of problem as long as you're working to fix it. The problem is that he's saying it's normal/okay to have this issue and defending other people who have it.
It's not normal, and it'll certainly going to affect your life (and not just in romantic environments, hell, I'd call this the least of his concerns since this is also happening in work environments), but you are still unnecessarily condemning him, and I feel you are defending people who are also harshly attacking him for no reason. It's a huge non-sequitur to make this about sexism.
You answered your own question there. Anxiety. Let me tell you, anxiety is a bitch, and it manifests differently in different people. Maybe this guy can't talk to women because of something in his past, or during his childhood, who knows. But calling him sexist is not going to help him AT ALL.
But expecting empathy towards men from a female safe space is too much to ask I suppose. And I guess it's somewhat understandable.
Anxiety isn't a cause, it's a symptom. There needs to be a reason for anxiety, and he even said it himself. He's afraid of being called a creep anymore. Are we gonna assume the women of the world decided to make him the one they all pile up on, or that maybe he acts creepy?
And I never called him sexist, and neither did anyone in that thread. I said the behavior is sexist and by the very definition of the word it absolutely is. You can't argue that. Saying something is sexist isn't a condemnation, it's a classification. I'd have all the empathy in the world for this guy if he was trying to fix his sexist behavior, but he isn't. He's defending it and saying it should be okay for other people to exhibit it too. You coddling people like this does no good whatsoever. Hell, I'd still have anxiety myself if no one told me to stop trying to normalize my own behavior and actually work on improving it. Though I do appreciate you telling me how much anxiety sucks as if I don't know.
If he went into a place about fixing anxiety and they classified his behavior as sexist, I'd say yeah it is, but that's immaterial. There are better ways of getting him to work through this. But he went into a thread about sexist behavior and tried to defend sexist behavior. Of course people are gonna tell him what it is.
>or that maybe he acts creepy?
You don't know this. He might as well come up as a "creep" because of his awkwardness, or it may simply be his perception (and no one is really calling him a creep). It goes back to his anxiety. And I strongly stand by my opinion that his behavior is caused by his anxiety. The cause of his anxiety? That's another discussion to have WITH HIM (instead of calling him out behind his back in another sub).
>I said the behavior is sexist and by the very definition of the word it absolutely is. You can't argue that.
Yes I can. I can absolutely argue this all day long if you want. What is it with some of you and your unhealthy lack of flexibility when it comes to certain topics.
>Though I do appreciate you telling me how much anxiety sucks as if I don't know.
Yeah. Don't make this about yourself. It isn't.
He literally said what the cause of his anxiety was in the post. What would you call the behavior besides "discrimination/prejudice based on sex"? That's what it is, are you saying it isn't based on sex or isn't discriminatory? You not liking a word doesn't make it less true, you can't change definitions. I can preface it with "unintentional" or "non-malicious" but it's still sexist behavior.
All I'm saying is that the dude has a problem, it's exhibiting itself as behavior that is detrimental to those around him, and he claimed that the behavior was okay. Which part of that do you disagree with?
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You sound like a very understanding and non-judgmental person. You must be a blast at parties
Just do not avoid eye contact with him because then you're an asshole
He's a male member of SRS.
Aren't they all white men though? Or trans asexual amputee's who are also a poc.
SRS is 60% male, last I checked.
That explains a lot.
I mean, if you have nothing to rebut with that's fine, but don't insult my totes awesome party skills
I had a rebuttal but I'm afraid of "othering" you. That's my favorite Stephen King novel by the way
Dude, that's not even a good joke. I'm only judging the guy 'cos he's saying it's okay to be terrified of women to the point where he won't look them in the eye. He's even defending the behavior from someone else. Are you okay with women who are terrified of men because they're all potential rapists? It's the same thing with this guy, he's just afraid of being called a creep. Actually, this is even worse because a) being called a creep doesn't really compare, and b) it's pretty easy to not get called a creep as long as you're willing to work on yourself. People like that don't need you defending them, they need someone to show them that their behavior isn't okay, and that they can work on it. For their sake and everyone around them
> You really see no issue with him purposely avoiding eye contact with women?
Since it is involuntary and not done on purpose, then no - I don't. If it was done on purpose for some reason then that would be different.
He said he does it intentionally because he's tired of being called a creep.
>Whenever I talk to females I almost entirely avoid looking at them
>That there's some underlying issue that he needs to work on?
Sure there is. Does it mean we should be judgmental, instead of having pity on him? I mean, I remember being an awkward teenager who couldnt' talk to a girl I was into. I can't even imagine what it'd be like to be like that around every woman I meet.
I only don't have pity for him at this very moment because he's defending his behavior and saying it isn't sexist. If he was trying to improve I'd have nothing but sympathy
I don't know how much he's defending it, maybe it was in the deleted comments, or another comment chain? I'll have to check with the bot.
I pity him. He's probably been creepy in the past (he says he avoids eye contact because he used to be called a creep), and even whatever awkward and ill-thought out thing he did to try to remedy it didn't work.
I read his posts as him wanting to be better at social interactions with women, he just doesn't know how.
He's defending it in that he's saying the dude is just shy or nervous as if that excuses it. If you're that shy/nervous around women and you plan on working around them, you need to fix that. I pity him in that I feel bad he has anxiety issues but in the context of the thread that's secondary
>He's defending it in that he's saying the dude is just shy or nervous as if that excuses it.
I think your assumption that "as if it excuses it" is too much based on projection / attribution error bias. You might also be right on the money, it's hard to say without the original poster saying more about it. Personally, I think it's unlikely to be that.
It's hard to really know the cause, especially when the person who posted that thread mentions talking to politicians / celebrities. It could be simple rudeness, or it could be that someone has done several interviews in a row, and is tired of answering the same questions. That doesn't excuse rude behaviour, but it can explain it.
>If you're that shy/nervous around women and you plan on working around them, you need to fix that.
Oh I completely agree. If he's just metaphorically plugging his fingers in his ears and going "lalala I can't hear or see youuuuu", then there's a problem. But as I think I said (sorry, tired :p), I read his posts as being from someone who recognizes a problem. It might be that he needs to get some professional help for anxiety, and it might also be that he is genuinely a creeper. Maybe he just is extremely dumb in terms of social skills.
Whatever the case, I am convinced that shaming him is way less helpful than encouraging him to get help to fix his problem. I mean, not being able to look 50% of the general populace in the eye has got to make his life difficult as hell.
He made excuses for the behavior. That's all I'm saying. I really don't think the replies were shaming him either. They weren't helping him with his issue, but that wasn't the point of the thread