"Yet you're the ones marching down the streets with dildos in your hands demanding the 'right' to have a 'union' in a church, their place of worship." Gay marriage drama in /r/news (self.SubredditDrama)
SubredditDrama
68 ups - 25 downs = 43 votes
236 comments submitted at 14:37:42 on May 14, 2014 by imakuram
I've always said that sometimes gay people are their own worst enemy.
Pride parades are great fun but... not exactly what you want middle america to think of when they think "normal gay couple"
Edit: Don't get me wrong, I like gay pride parades and I support gay rights. My point is that gay people can't act like they do in a gay pride parade and not expect that to have some reprecussions. The same could be said for straight people at carnival.
You mean like how Mardi Gra is the worst enemy of christians?
> You mean like how Mardi Gra is the worst enemy of christians?
Why not compare Mardi Gras as a celebration of heterosexuality?
>Why not compare Mardi Gras as a celebration of heterosexuality?
Baby, I'll do anything you want as long as you give me a plastic bead necklace.
Because it's a Christian celebration maybe, that has little to do with heterosexuality?
Historically, sure, but that's not how it's celebrated today—not primarily, anyway; a tourist could visit New Orleans for Mardi Gras and be forgiven for thinking it's a secular celebration of beer, breasts, and food. Hell, until a few years ago, I didn't know Mardi Gras had any religion context; it's not marketed that way.
It might not be marketed that way to tourists, but it is generally celebrated in predominately Catholic parts of the world because it is still a religious celebration. And for the locals in those places it is still strongly tied to their religion, for many of them at least. I mean, you could also argue that pride parades appear to be a celebration of beer, breasts, and food with no ties to homosexuality. Wouldn't make it true.
Pretty much, although I don't think Mardi Gras as it's celebrated today has much to do with religion.
Fat Tuesday is!
Technically you're right.
However, I wonder how many of those people who are on Bourbon Street on Fat Tuesday go to church on Ash Wednesday?
Plenty for the free wine. Teeth of the dog hangover strategy.
> Teeth of the dog
I think it's "Hair of the dog" isn't it?
Whatever farm animal of war, Lana.
Why should they have to worry about what middle america thinks about them? Why should middle america have control over their rights to begin with?
Well, practically speaking, middle america goes to the ballot box to vote. If one is convinced that all 'the gays' run around the streets wielding giant dildos and terrorizing the children one may be less likely to vote in favor of their rights.
A lot of these people aren't going to vote in favor of gay rights regardless of how gay people act. That is why the courts are having to step in and fix the voter's decisions.
Is it possible that not depicting gay people as sex-ravaging leather daddies would speed up the voters choosing gay marriage in the first place?
Conservatives thought that gays were gross and perverted well before gay pride parades existed.
Even if some gay people are sex-ravaging leather daddies, who cares?
other gay people who can't get rights because conservatives convince people that leather daddies are all gays
It seems kind of weird to throw people under the bus to placate shitty conservatives :-\
Honk honk
Their rights aren't up for vote, as some are painfully finding out
>Why should they have to worry about what middle america thinks about them?
Because without the support of middle america (i.e. middle class, middle income, politically "neutral") you aren't going to see much progress made in the fight for gay marriage.
Do you really think that most gay marriage laws would pass without the support of "middle america"
Most gay marriage laws don't pass, that is why the courts are having to step in and force the change. Rights shouldn't be up for debate on a ballet box to begin with.
but they are, here and now
Because straight people never behave in a sexual manner while in public - ever. Nope, only the gays have widespread events where dancing occurs, and me oh my, sometimes people are scantily clad.
Yep, only the gays do that.
The difference is that you don't see that type of behavior in a parade, in the middle of town, where children could be present.
> in the middle of town,
Here is a billboard of a half naked woman.
Here are two half naked people making out - this was also a billboard
There are literally millions of these on buildings, bus signs, magazines, televisions..etc, all in plain view of children. Straight people being half naked and doing sexually suggestive things saturates every facet of our surroundings, and you're worried about a few gay dudes in a parade wearing speedos? On one day of the year?
Someone think of the children.
Also can we get a Texian in here to confirm that Austin has a shit ton of strip clubs and billboard for erotic masseuses.
Was in Austin for almost nine years, can confirm. Mostly topless-only because of the liquor laws, but there were a few notable outliers. Also, Palazio/Expose had some sort of advertising deal going with Yellow Cab. There probably were cabs without the extra advertising plate on the back, but I never saw one. The sign for Midnight Cowboy Nude Modeling and Oriental Massage was on 6th, but I don't know if that business was open 'cause I never rang the buzzer.
Near my old job there was a strip club with billboards two doors down from an elementary school. Very weird.
> Straight people being half naked and doing sexually suggestive things saturates every facet of our surroundings,
To be clear, I never said I agree with straight people engaging this type of behavior in public either.
What you do in your own home is your own business but it doesn't need to be in public.
Then why don't you go bug straight people first? They're the ones who determine what is culturally acceptable.
Oh snap.
Golf clap
> They're the ones who determine what is culturally acceptable.
Since when is performing sex acts, simulated or real in public "culturally acceptable" in the US?
The context in which we are debating, in case you forgot.
http://www.reddit.com/r/SubredditDrama/comments/25jgki/yetyouretheonesmarchingdownthestreetswith/chhs6un
and I've always said that gay pride parade's is the one thing that are for US, not YOU.
It's not a fucking "Come Meet The Gays" Open Day in which we invite all the hetero community and their kids to come round for tea so we can charm them into liking us. It's our day, and it's the one day we don't have to worry about that crap!
Its a fucking celebration of various facets of human sexuality. I don't get why people seem to think its for convincing people we're straight laced and 'normal', that it should be 'desexualized.'
Edit; it is also other things beside that, such as defying gender norms and such, but denying the sexuality aspect of it is absurd.
don't you know that as soon as a man is attracted to another man his balls shrivel and fall off?
Source: I have no balls.
Oh and /s
http://m.imgur.com/kCHqh44
All humans are sexual. Deal with it.
> it's the one day we don't have to worry about that crap!
Except you do because your actions on that day have consequences that last beyond that day.
raster is so bourgey
>Crowd: How bourgey is he?
Raster so bourgey he forget Carnival is totally a thing.
omg I wish those straight people would stop shoving their heterosexuality down my throat!
Except you don't see This (NSFW) type of behavior at carnival.
Scantily-clad I can deal with. It's the overt sexual acts in public I dislike.
Are you challenging me to find a photo of people fucking at carnival?....because that's gonna be like a few hours....so I can get off of work, unless someone wants to handle my lightweight.
I'm not saying it doesn't happen in the crowd because it does.
However, the photo I posted looks like it was taking part as part of the parade. So, I challenge you to find a picture of someone fucking on a float in a carnival parade.
....brb taking lunch
Edit best I can do on short time.
>Except you don't see This type of behavior at carnival.
You must go to the boring ones, then.
I should have clarified. You can see all sorts of stuff at Mardi Gras but most of that is in the crowd.
At a lot of gay pride parades you see that questionable material as part of the parade.
Don't get me wrong, I like gay pride parades and I support gay rights. My point is that gay people can't act like they do in a gay pride parade and expect people to be OK with that. The same could be said for straight people at carnival.
Perhaps you should just loosen up, or stop using your prudish nature to criticize the gay community.
Either or.
Sexuality is a part of human nature, yet it seems the only time people have a problem with it, or bother to discuss their disdain for it is when homosexuality is involved, coincidence? I don't think so.
>Perhaps you should just loosen up.
His attitude or his asshole?
Pass the KY...
I'm not taking a position here but there are plenty of people that have a problem with sexuality, Homo or hetero.
Sexuality shouldn't be in public.. but pretending only gays do it is just silly.
>Perhaps you should just loosen up, or stop using your prudish nature to criticize the gay community.
I know, right? Not wanting yourself, your family or your kids to see men in assless chaps and bondage gear sucking on strapons? What a bunch of prudes! They should be forced to watch, and sent to "re-education camps" where they have to watch gay porn and service men if they don't! Only then can we achieve progress and equality!
"assless chaps" is redundant. All chaps are assless, and if they weren't, they'd be 'pants'.
The gheys are forcing straight people and their children to attend gay pride parades?
> stop using your prudish nature to criticize the gay community.
I'm not sure that I'm criticizing anyone. I'm simply stating that their public actions may have consequences and they can't be surprised when they are judged for those actions.
I love gay people and I support gay marriage. I'm just trying to explain the reality of the situation, even if that reality isn't great.
>I'm simply stating that their public actions may have consequences and they can't be surprised when they are judged for those actions.
Changing public opinion is the goal, and it's going swimmingly.
It's people like you voicing your "concern" (See: digging your heels in the sand) that are the problem, and we're tired of hearing about your "concerns."
> and I've always said that gay pride parade's is the one thing that are for US, not YOU.
Therein lies the problem. If gays aim to achieve the right to marry and have children together nationwide, the US and YOU needs to eventually disappear. I think gay pride parades are counterproductive to that effort because it's alienating; like you want what all heterosexuals want, but want to immerse yourself in your own culture. Shouldn't we want a shared culture?
This is the same reason I don't like black history month. It implies that the other 11 months should be "white history."
You're saying we need to abandon our culture.
Now imagine saying that to other minority groups. Plenty of celebrations and observances exist in religious, ethnic and cultural communities. They exist because they are important to the people that observe them.
I live my life in the wider world. But gay culture is important to me. And pride celebrations are part of that. If you want to come and see, by all means. But you're not who it's for. And that's not a bad thing. It's just different.
I've never been entirely comfortable with celebrations based on ethnic communities, honestly. Religious ones are a bit different because you can choose which religion you belong to in western nations, but taking pride in something beyond your control rubs me the wrong way.
Should I be proud just because I happen to be male, white, born in the USA, or have a Jewish father? No choice I ever make will change any one of those things, even if I behave in a manner that goes against the stereotypical expectation of those characteristics.
Likewise, who you feel compelled to have sex with (and possibly marry) is something you can't control. I get that you have friends within your community and you have a sense of belonging, something we all need. But making yourself known as gay first as opposed to someone who happens to be gay is self-defeating, I think.
Well, I don't think we're going to see eye-to-eye here, but I'll do my best.
Just because this isn't something we can control about ourselves doesn't mean it isn't worth celebrating. Using the ethnic community example, if someone is born into a Greek family, they will be brought up with that ethos and culture, and I really don't see the problem with getting together to celebrate that heritage. For instance, what if the economy of the US tanked, and you and a million other Americans emigrated to Argentina. You would probably assimilate, marry Argentinians, speak Spanish, etc. But maybe once a year you want to get together and have apple pie and play baseball and listen to bluegrass because you're proud of where you came from. Do you still see a problem?
I am by most measures "assimilated." I'm white, male, middle class and I am not stereotypically or obviously gay. But my experiences as a gay man are different than that of a comparable straight man. A lot of my friends are gay men. And we have a language and a culture and a sense of belonging with each other that was created because of our differences (and difficulties) with the wider world.
That is not the same thing as being gay first. We are people first. We happen to be gay. But we are not ashamed of that, nor do we want to hide it, nor do we want to be told that we can't associate with who we want in the way we want. It has, in so many ways, nothing to do with you.
As for capital p Pride (i.e. pride celebrations), it doesn't have to do with pride in being born gay. It has to do with pride in being true to oneself. In the choice to live that part of your life openly, which takes courage.
Well, I'm not sure if I agree with you, but I do see where you're coming from, and I respect you.
Man, that popcorn was just starting to get buttery. Why'd you have to spoil it by being all reasonable.
this is sort of your shtick, isn't it?
To share my honest opinion about things, yes.
Thank you, straight man for telling queer people that they are their own worst enemy, not the homophobes who want to kill them and/or deny them basic human rights. What would we have done without your tedious, bullshit opinions and JAQing off?
Since when did marriage become a basic human right?
Food/Shelter/education/etc... sure. I'm not sure you could classify marriage as a "basic human right"
The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that marriage is a fundamental right several times, I believe.
It seems so, so I guess I was wrong. It is a human right.
I'm not going to dig in your ass about this, but I'm pretty sure everyone's problem is that in your observation, you're shifting the blame towards the participants in the parade rather than the bigots who have a problem with them.
I don't deny that gay pride parades, regardless as to how eccentric they are, are not going to leave a good impression on the average middle class bigot who is on the edge of supporting gay rights. But that's their faults. It shouldn't be on the LGBT people to appease middle class voters-- that isn't what pride parades are for.
> you're shifting the blame towards the participants in the parade rather than the bigots who have a problem with them.
There's a difference here. If the parades were "family friendly" (for lack of a better term) then you'd be a bigot if you had a problem with them.
Most gay pride parades I've been to aren't family friendly and they go way beyond what normal "straight" parades do. You can have a problem with, still support gays, and not be a bigot.
I'd say the same thing about any "straight" parade that crossed a line like most gay pride parades do.
You can parade and celebrate being gay without being overtly sexual about it.
What is it with you and your obsession with bigotry not being bigotry if the hated group somehow "earns" it by not appeasing bigots. This is the same bullshit as "race realism". Redefining what "bigotry" means so that you're just outside of it does not make you less of a bigot.
I... Don't really care what middle America thinks. I don't want any of their bullshit, especially not their sex negativity. I mean, don't get me wrong, I understand strategy, but I don't think there is anything wrong with a gay pride parade, and so shying away from it because it makes some people uncomfortable would be really disappointing, because it'd be letting the mainstream culture's sex negativity win.
> I... Don't really care what middle America thinks. I don't want any of their bullshit, especially not their sex negativity.
Ok. That's fine.
However, you can't get mad when they don't accept you. You can't have your cake and eat it too. In other words, you can't act like people do at a gay pride parade and then expect Mr. & Mrs. Smith to be totally OK with you moving next door. True, they can't really do anything to stop you but it doesn't mean they have to present a welcoming atmosphere.
.....rast do you think gay people wear peacock feathers as casual clothes?.....because they don't.
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It not showcasing you to the rest of society, it showcasing to your sub society that you have pride in what you are....I don't think Irish people paint themselves green now do I?
>celebrate how different they are instead of how alike they are
That's the entire point.
Why should Mr & Mrs Smith judge me, a gay man in England, because of the actions they witnessed by a gay man in San Fransisco who I have never met?
Okay, I'll go ahead and judge you and your heterosexual peers by Josef Fritzl and you can't get mad when I do that because you can't have your cake and eat it too; you can't go around kidnapping and raping your daughters in Austria and expect Mr & Mrs Smith to be totally OK with you moving in next door, you sick heterosexual fuck.
Should they or shouldn't they isn't up for debate.
The fact of the matter is that they do. You can rant and rave all day about how they shouldn't but that's not going to change a thing.
In that case I suppose the root of the issue is: do we care what mr & mrs smith next door think?
Personally I couldn't care less, it's my day to be without fear and shame, and I'm taking advantage of that.
Mr & Mrs Smith can come and talk to me tomorrow! Although I might be hungover so after 5 would be best.
> it's my day to be without fear and shame
But don't you agree that there are ways to celebrate without being overtly sexual about it?
Don't you see that some people may be offended by the overtly sexual nature of the parades, even if they support gay rights. (I am and I do support gay rights)
Probably the main reason for the overt sexuality is that LGBT people are used to having to repress our sexuality in everyday life. We generally can't hold hands or kiss in public like straight couples do, it isn't really safe to try and pick people up at bars (except gay bars, and occasionally not even there, believe it or not, as a surprising number of homophobic straight people go to gay bars sometimes), it's often not acceptable for us to talk about our relationships with straight friends and colleagues, most of us spent a long time completely in the closet, etc.
And a positive effect of pride parades is that it desensitises people to those things, so that they become more acceptable.
> The fact of the matter is that they do. You can rant and rave all day about how they shouldn't but that's not going to change a thing.
Actually it will, because society needs to get on top of them and start not tolerating their bullshit. They will become the unwelcomed ones.
> They will become the unwelcomed ones.
Or it will backfire, as we've seen in Russia.
I forgot that Russia was the pinnacle of LGBT acceptance and had stomped out homophobia leading to recent events
It was certainly more acceptable of LGBT issues than it is now.
so the US should stop while it's ahead? I mean, with the logic you're following, we literally should just stop all gay rights movement immediately for fear of it backfiring into a Russia situation. Doesn't even have anything to do with my original statement about homophobia not being tolerated or welcomed by society anymore
Sex positivity is a matter of social change, just like gay marriage, and I think it's one where the sex positivists are clearly right, so I think I can complain when Mr. and Mrs. Smith refuse to welcome me, as they will still be every bit as wrong.
I'll respectfully disagree and just say that I think that if you expect to be accepted by society it's your responsibility to act in a respectful manner and in a way that won't offend a majority of people.
But doesn't that mean that being gay shouldn't be a point you can argue for respect on if it offends the majority?
Edit: basically, I don't think this line works morally (because rights aren't about "offense", they're rights, damn it!), and strategically, I think a strategy where one way that people are oppressed is propped up by those fighting other oppression is rather counterproductive in the long haul.
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No personal attacks.
OK. I hope blaming minorities for being oppressed is still allowed though!
We try not to limit opinions here, no matter how horrible they are :( but do report racists and shit, we tend to ban for that
I don't really understand the reasoning of allowing people to attack entire groups of innocent people through their "opinions," but an insult to one person is a no no.
because the exact same shit happens in the linked threads? And we're here for drama?
Personally I find this exchange (even though he's an obvious troll) equally as good as the original drama
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No need to be rude. Or threatening.
So he calls OP (who actually made some valid points in a civilized manner) a "condescending shitstain", but I'm the rude one? Whatever you say.
He was also warned.
I'm being blut and honest, in the nicest possible way.
People's actions have consequences. No amount of name calling is going to change that.
"If you don't stop acting black, you can't be mad when we deny you basic human rights."
Do you not see how fucking idiotic this line of thinking is?
I don't think the right to marry is a basic human right.
Sorry, it's not in the same league with food/shelter/etc... so you can't compare the two. I don't see anyone in the US saying we should deny gay people food or shelter for being gay. Nor do a hear anyone saying that they can't love who they want to love.
People (both straight and gay) act like the ability to get married and the benefits that go with it are a human rights. They aren't.
Come back and complain to me when your people were made slaves because of their sexual orientation and then we'll talk.
> People (both straight and gay) act like the ability to get married and the benefits that go with it are a human rights. They aren't.
Speaking from a U.S. perspective, it is most certainly a human right.
The US Supreme Court has stated unequivocally, in many different cases, that:
“the freedom to marry has long been recognized as one of the vital personal rights essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men” Loving v. Virginia, 388 U.S. 1, 12 (1967)
and that marriage is “one of the basic civil rights of man,” Skinner v. Oklahoma ex rel. Williamson, 316 U.S. 535, 541 (1942)
TIL the US supreme court considers marriage a human right.
It's also regarded as such by numerous important international agreements, such as the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (which most countries, including the US, have ratified), the European Convention on Human Rights (which almost all European countries have ratified), and the American Convention on Human Rights (which most South and Central American countries have ratified).
There is also a widely recognized right to equal treatment under the law. Even if marriage was not regarded as a "right" in the US, the government would be violating the Constitution if it prevented a class of people from getting married without a good reason.
What a shock, our resident troll pops up with a stupid opinion. Do you even pause before you run over to SRDD to throw yourself an asshole party anymore?
You may think my opinions are "stupid" but that doesn't make them any less valid.
I'd also suspect that if you took a random survey of non-redditors on the street you'd find more of them agree with me (about this and other things) than don't.
"There are plenty of other bigots around, just ask!"
You keep going to that as though it's somehow a point in your favor. Move to Nigeria and you'll find plenty of people in favor of hanging homosexuals too. So?
> not exactly what you want middle america to think of when they think "normal gay couple"
As evidenced by this recent case in Idaho, it doesn't really matter what they think.
> As evidenced by this recent case in Idaho, it doesn't really matter what they think.
Legally maybe not but there's a difference between something being legal and fully accepted by the community.
The difference is about 20 years of paying taxes.
Shit it's shorter if you're in an open minded community. When I was 14 I was that kid who called people faggots because "eww effeminate gays?" and then I got over it as I met more gay people than 0.
People are fucking weird regardless of sexual orientation. Deal with it.
you'll figure ito ut when you meet a gay person for the first time
I don't know why you are being downvoted, when you have good point. Most, if not entire anti gay propaganda in countries where gay pride is yet to be held (i,.e. Serbia) revolves around sexually explicit images from various gay prides . And it works well, as people are mostly conservative when it comes to sexuality and almost with everyone you argue for gay rights and gay events even with moderates (non-religious and semi liberal crowd) , they immediately mention morality of "people fucking on the streets". It is hard to argue against that point, to be fair.
I think there is even movement in gay community to make mardi gras less about sexuality and more of a festival for everyone. Like, well, every festival or parade.
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Don't know why you feel leek that, I actually find SRD community most balanced, and sane for that matter. I think your comment started with negative tone " gay people are their own worst enemy." which can give wrong impression
I mean "you are your worst enemy:" implies that the way you are and way you live your life is ..your [worst] enemy.
>you are your worst enemy
The truth hurts sometimes and the same phrase can be applied to a lot of different movements and organizations.
>Don't know why you feel leek that, I actually find SRD community most balanced, and sane for that matter.
hahahahaha
You're funny.
>and the same phrase can be applied to a lot of different movements and organizations.
Without making this meta drama, if you said "gay pride is a worst enemy for promoting gay culture" then it could raise interesting debate. "gay people are their own worst enemy" really it is broad statement and leaves impression that being gay is ...well....wrong from the get go. It is not even subjective as "you are your own worst enemy" phrase where one might argue the ability of achieving greatness is only limited by your fears, etc..but "gay people are their own worst enemy" can be interpreted as "being gay is your worst enemy" as it leaves little room for interpretation.
I mean, that is at least reason I think people down-voted you, I certainly was about until I saw rest of the post
I'm not saying that having gay pride is bad. I'm saying that the behavior exhibited at a lot of gay pride parades can leave people with a negative impression.
I know you think that, in all your wisdom, you know what's best for all the gay people, but you don't. They have days where they can be themselves without worrying about straight people, and guess what: rights are still improving. Gay marriage is being legalized state by state, popular opinion is improving, and it's becoming less acceptable to be a bigot. Stop pretending that you care about gay rights and just say that you want them to adhere to your prudish standards.
[deleted]
TIL there is a distinction between bougie and bourgie, and that kids are now misspelling them bourgey.
Its a word that said more then it wrote, its that damnable silent r that gets you.
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Because if I do it enough more people will do it....
Again, it doesn't bother me. What's the point?
Oh it does, else you wouldn't have brought it to anyone's attention that it doesn't bother you, cause deep in your very soul there a lil' raster going:
>Man, I'm bourgey
Nope, I just noticed you doing it constantly and wondered why.
> wondered why.
its cause ur bourgey
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