OP in /r/confession turned down a transsexual girl. Popcorn aplenty. (self.SubredditDrama)
SubredditDrama
42 ups - 18 downs = 24 votes
OP makes a post in /r/confession about turning down a transsexual girl (and being quite rude to her in the process).
Presently, 610 punters provide plenty precious popcorn:
Is a transsexual girl a woman? "I'm black, if i bleached my skin and permed my hair i'd still be black. He's not a woman."
Someone used the word tranny and was scolded for it: "you can't tell me what to do. if i want to call transsexuals trannys i can call them trannys [...] Your attempt at word policing reddit is childlike. I recommend you get over what words other people use, and try to understand the way they use them. I'm not saying this to be condescending, this is for your own good." (drama includes a surprise appearance by the word "nigger")
On the difference between cross-dressers and transsexuals: "Penis and wearing girls clothes? Your a crossdresser"
Something, something red pill: "Yeah, you're really starting to sound very redpill. I have no words to you. You probably have mad game with the bitches, calling women cunts."
Edit: 461 -> 610 comments
139 comments submitted at 11:43:59 on May 12, 2014 by is_this_working
> She was cute and I initially started to hit on her, pull my usual routine of being charming/funny/etc and trying to get her number, maybe make out later. Well, she dropped the bombshell innocuously - she used to be a guy but had surgery and is now a girl.
> As soon as I found that out, I immediately went from 60 to 0 in a matter of seconds.
From his description, it sounds like this particular trans woman did exactly what everyone seems to want: she let him know her trans status up front and before they'd even gone on a date.
His response was to "shut her down" until she left. It's not the rejection that I think is the problem, but more how he handled it...if you appreciate what someone did, you probably should not make them feel like shit for doing it. You can let someone down gently without making them feel like they're suddenly not even worth talking to.
Yeah I commend her on being honest when there is such a huge stereotype/stigma of Transsexual people being dishonest about the situation.
But I can't blame the person for not wishing to pursue the girl after the announcement. The way he handled it might not have been best but I don't think we can all say we would have been better in the same situation. It's not an everyday thing where you are hitting on a girl only to find out they are(we're) a guy. It was probably a really awkward moment, magnified by how intoxicated both of them might have been.
Hell, I think it's common to handle lopsided attraction badly even when both parties are cis. I know I have fucked that up myself in the past.
I tend to look back on those times and think, "Man, I wish I would have dealt with that better." I don't beat myself up for being a horrible person or anything, just like I don't think this guy is a horrible person, I just try to use my past experiences to help me do better next time.
What is wrong with how this fictitious person handled it? Are they supposed to say out-loud "sorry, I no longer find you attractive"? You talk like he owes her something.
I don't think anybody is obligated to be kind to others, I just think it's the nicer thing to do.
Really this situation just sounds like an unnecessarily-harsh rejection to me. It wasn't the nicest way to handle the situation, but it's also not as big a deal as it sounds like the friends were making it.
I don't even think the trans issue is directly relevant, since this kind of situation happens with cis people all the time; a guy (or girl) shuts down a girl (or guy) in a harsh way, and the rejected party's friends rally around in defense. It seems like the trans issue is just getting muddled in with what would normally be a banal case of college dating drama.
> I don't think anybody is obligated to be kind to others... sounds like an unnecessarily-harsh rejection to me
Disengaging from a conversation is unnecessarily harsh? In the story she then follows him around!
But yeah, you're right, it's not the trans person who is the "nice guy" in this story, it's everyone who thinks she is fragile and needs defending.
>I don't think anybody is obligated to be kind to others, I just think it's the nicer thing to do.
>Really this situation just sounds like an unnecessarily-harsh rejection to me.
Feelings don't matter and you are not obliged to be nice to anyone. Also he knew it wasn't going anywhere so why shouldn't he shut her down? It's not like he insulted her or went around telling everyone she was trans.
Hi TeRP. Here to tell everyone how much being a douche is perfectly fine?
It's called "not leading them on". It's really the best way to deal with unwanted attraction.
Again, I'm pretty sure there is a way to be both honest and polite when letting someone down.
Imagine if, say, a woman did this to a man because she found out he was atheist and she found that a massive turn-off. Would Reddit still be insisting that the best way to deal with his "unwanted attraction" was to give him a sudden cold shoulder?
Or might people say things like, "She should have at least been polite about it," or "She obviously didn't understand how scary it feels to put yourself out there," or "You can let a guy down without being a bitch about it."
This is how he said it went down.
>I chatted with her for a little bit and then politely disengaged from the conversation to talk to some other girls. She tried to restart conversation with me a few more times, but each time I shut her down fast. Finally she left.
He could be lying, but as described it's perfectly reasonable.
The first sentence, sure. But then to "shut her down fast" every time she tries to make conversation? That just seems awkward and harsh to me.
Again, I don't think it sounds like a big fucking deal or like he's a horrible person, just graceless and a little tacky.
However, I think that if cis people want trans folks to be open and up-front about their status then the least we can do is treat them kindly when they do so, rather than leaving them feeling humiliated in public.
Is it so hard to say you're not interested? I mean, he could've let her know it was a dealbreaker for him, but it seems like he just tried to stop talking to her altogether.
>As soon as I found that out, I immediately went from 60 to 0 in a matter of seconds. She's nice and all, but honestly there's no way I can get a boner while thinking about something like that. I chatted with her for a little bit and then politely disengaged from the conversation to talk to some other girls. She tried to restart conversation with me a few more times, but each time I shut her down fast. Finally she left
Ha, make this about the extremely common scenario where one girl shuts down a guy and he dares complain about it: OMG WHY DO YOU THINK YOU ARE ENTITLED TO EVERY WOMAN OUT THERE YOU CREEP!!!
Of course he is wrong according to this sub. He is a guy. She is in several minority groups.
When a boy asks a girl out, she has no obligation to 'let him down' nicely. And a boy has no obligation to let a girl down nicely. He's free to date who he wants and or whatever reason. Its like if a girl turns down a fat guy because he's fat, she's entitled to do it nicely or rudely. Nobody has an obligation to find attractive someone they don't find attractive.
And from what I gathered, he said he politely disengaged her, and when she tried to hit on him again, he shut her down. This is what happens all the time, boys and girls shut each other down if they don't find the other person attractive.
As I replied above,
> I don't think anybody is obligated to be kind to others, I just think it's the nicer thing to do.
I am not arguing he was obligated to date her. I am not arguing he didn't have the right to reject her. I am not even arguing that he didn't have the right to reject her harshly. I agree that we all have the right to decline anybody's advances, for whatever reasons we want.
All I'm saying is that if he would prefer that trans people let him know their status up-front (as she did), then it might be better for him to treat them kindly when they do so.
Yeah I think she did the right thing, I don't think she did anything wrong. In fact when I first read it I contemplated maybe she might have been so disinterested in him that that was the reason she was so forthcoming with it, to scare him away.
What do you think he should have done instead? I think he seemed to manage it as politely as possible, he said he continued the conversation and politely let her off. Should he have explicitly said he didn't want to date a transwoman? I think that would have been much more rude.
I think it was kind of a messy situation, being at a party with a bunch of people around and possibly with alcohol involved (I know I'm not at my most courteous when I'm lit). I agree that saying "I don't want to date a trans woman" in front of a bunch of other people would be even worse than what he did.
It would probably have been good to find a private moment to let her know that that he isn't personally comfortable with dating a trans woman. I doubt it would be the first time she encountered this. If he was up front, and said something like "I think you're cool and I'm enjoying talking to you, but I didn't want to lead you on," then it puts the ball in her court. If she continues chatting with him after that then he could chat back without worrying that he's giving her the wrong impression...they're just talking, friendly-like.
If he couldn't do that--maybe because there wasn't a way to get a private moment, or because he was tipsy enough that he didn't trust himself to handle it well, or whatever else--then it might have been nice to at least talk to her after the fact and clear the air.
I do get why he did things the way he did. And like I said elsewhere, I really don't think the situation itself is unusual...awkward rejection happens between cis people all the time. That is why I think it's more valuable to learn from the experience and maybe handle things a little better next time (as opposed to ranting or beating up on the guy for not having been perfect this time around).
To be fair, let's say a girl rejects a guy cause he's fat. Does she also need to go through all of that?
If she was actively flirting with him right up until the moment she found out he was fat, then it probably would be nice for her to at least tell him what changed.
Does she "need" to go through it? No, because nobody needs to be kind. I just think it would be nicer.
I've said this before, but the current standard operating procedure for rejecting and unwanted advance to to be passive and avoid anything that could lead to a direct confrontation. That's what the OP did. Trans people should let others know their status up front so they can get this reactions, which totally typical and about as nice as it's going to get.
Personally, I think it would be better for people to be more clear and direct when rejecting other's advances or putting a break on things, but that ship has sailed (for now) and passivity is what people need to expect.
Absolutely correct. Well said sir/ma'am.
> "I'm black, if i bleached my skin and permed my hair i'd still be black. He's not a woman."
So, what does he think about Michael Jackson?
Here is what I am having a little difficulty understanding, and hopefully someone far less ignorant than myself on the topic can shed some light: Taking that sex is gradient as a given, doesn't gender identity reinforce gender roles and gender binary? For instance, 'I was born a biological male, although I have always felt as if I were a girl or woman.' Likewise, 'I was born with male genitalia but never identified with the other males I was around.' Well, what is the essence of being a girl or woman? Is it femininity? Is masculinity the essence of being a boy or man? For me, the answer to both is no.
>Taking that sex is gradient as a given, doesn't gender identity reinforce gender roles and gender binary?
No, not really.
It has more to do with how one wants to experience one's body than about gender roles. I'm a pretty fucking masculine woman, for instance; I'm literally sitting with a foot on my desk, reading Reddit, and wearing reasonably androgynous clothes.
I'm still a trans woman, though. I take my hormones every day, I identify with womanhood, and I now have fairly substantial breasts. It's really about my body, not about gender roles.
As for the gender binary, there are trans* people who identify with neither male nor female. There are a few different terms for such people, often describing different gender identities; "Genderqueer", a broad umbrella that includes (almost?) everyone who identifies as neither male nor female, and "Genderfluid", a term that means anyone who's gender identity isn't strictly fixed, are two of the most common terms.
Any further questions?
(Also, fuck yeah, sex as a gradient.)
> I'm a pretty fucking masculine woman, for instance; I'm literally sitting with a foot on my desk, reading Reddit, and wearing reasonably androgynous clothes.
Okay, this is where I get confused. I'm a woman that is currently reading reddit with my feet up, wearing fairly androgynous clothing currently (and, well, always for that matter). However, I would never consider myself masculine in any way. I don't see how the clothes one wears or the habits one has can make you either "feminine" or "masculine".
Surely there has to be a better indicator of gender identity than that.
It's not a measure of gender identity: I'm using "masculine" and "feminine" to refer to gender roles, not gender identity.
Thank you for your response. That actually cleared up a bit, especially the genderqueer and genderfluid explanations. I do have some more questions though, if you'd lend some time to educate me.
> I'm still a trans woman, though. I take my hormones every day, I identify with womanhood, and I now have fairly substantial breasts. It's really about my body, not about gender roles.
But are hormones and breasts essential to womanhood? Is having a penis essential to manhood? My understanding is that the answer is no. Having a penis does not make one a man; identifying as a man makes one a man. By extension, the same applies to possessing a vagina and breasts in determining one's woman-ness. But then the inevitable question arises, what are the characteristics essential to being a man? What are the characteristics essential to being a woman? Can one describe these gender identities without resorting to relying on gender roles and stereotypical behaviors? It really seems like a taxonomical clusterfuck.
>identifying as a man makes one a man
I agree completely, I'm just saying "I don't think anyone can argue I don't have a claim to neing a trans woman". (Not that anyone EVER should, only that some people do and I'm defending a concept using me as an example)
I can write up more, but it'll have to wait until next time I'm at a computer.
> I identify with womanhood
I suppose I am asking what this means. For you, what are the characteristics essential to womanhood? Likewise, what characteristics are essential to differentiate womanhood from manhood?
the answers, if you get any, will be sexist. gender doesn't exist. It doesn't mean anything to "be x-gender" over and above identifying oneself as such. Gendered words are weak adjectives. Claims to gender are unfalsifiable. Many trans people realize this. Some people, trans or not, don't, or are reluctant to admit that they do.
>I’ve written here before that I believe most transgender people share the same basic feelings: gender dysphoria, transgender desire and gender fog. Whether you are transsexual, transvestite, drag queen, drag king, butch lesbian, genderqueer, non-binary or something else, you almost certainly experience one of those feelings, and probably all three. Whatever neurological claims you may have read about essential differences between one group and another, the fact remains that almost none of the trans people you will meet have been found to have a “female brain,” neurologically. People cross those subcategory boundaries all the time, and the only evidence currently accepted for membership is personal declaration.
http://transblog.grieve-smith.com/2014/04/30/the-essential-conflict-between-transitioners-and-non-transitioners/
http://transblog.grieve-smith.com/2014/02/04/skepticism-and-trans-beliefs/
Oh look, it's this shit.
(This is bullshit, btw.)
Fine. Explain how it's bullshit. Explain what characteristics make someone a "real woman" or "real man" besides one declaring oneself as such. I am happy to change my position.
I'm on board with this. If one can explain what they feel it's like to be a woman without using sexist or misogynistic stereotypes, then I'll also change my position. Please, enlighten me. Seriously.
Just wanted to say thanks for replying, I had been wondering something similar.
One other thing I'm wondering: I have encountered "gender binary thinking" (for lack of better term) from both cis people and trans people. If a cis person does it, I feel pretty comfortable telling them to bugger off with that, but with a trans person I feel like it is somehow offsides for me to say anything. Is that just me being overly paranoid?
Do you call out trans people who insist on the gender binary? Do you feel differently about cis people who insist on it than you do about trans people who do?
Trans people who insist that there is a gender binary are also assholes. They're kinda more asinine, because they're more likely to know some of the people they're erasing. It's important to remember that this doesn't mean there's anything wrong with identifying with a position in the gender binary, but if someone is saying "everyone is a man or a woman!" they're definitely erasing people, and that definitely makes them an asshole.
Aha, total lightbulb moment for me...I think the reason I was worried about criticizing a trans person's perception is because it might come across as me telling them they are wrong about their own experience of gender. I feel like trans people get enough of that already and I don't want to add to it.
But the way you put it makes perfect sense. I don't mind if someone defines "being a man" or "being a woman" for themselves in whatever way works for them, I just mind if they start insisting that their definition is gospel.
Thanks again!
I've noticed this myself.
I think the two sides choose to ignore it as it would result in a lot of infighting that would never end.
Both are trying to get more rights/freedoms, squabbling amongst each other would likely set both groups back.
>the two sides choose to ignore
not all of them: /r/gendercritical
(mirror | open source | create your own snapshots)
His friend used the term "cisgendered". That's OP's first problem
I don't understand why this is a problem. It's perfectly fine to say that you don't want to have sex with a trans person because they are trans. That's your personal sexual preference and no one should be allowed to give you shit about it.
If this story really happened the OP needs to get new, less shitty friends.
people are allowed to give you shit about literally anything they want, at any time.
i feel like more people on reddit need to understand that.
nope, my rights to make rape jokes, be sexually attracted to underage girls, and misuse the words preference and sexuality to cover up my transphobia are sacred.
He should be less shitty too. No one has to date anyone they don't want to date, but he could have have been nicer about it. His treatment of the transgirl after he found about her history could have been better. He didn't even treat like a friend instead of a potential mate, he just started ignoring her until she left. She hasn't done anything other than being trans, he initiated flirting. It must feel awful for her to have people being nice to her to completely dropping for being trans when it is already pretty hard to deal with being born in the wrong body.
> He should be less shitty too.
I don't see where he was really that shitty. He just didn't act interested.
If I were the trans in that position I'd rather be given the cold shoulder like any other girl who he might not be interested in than be told "it's because your trans"
I'm pretty sure she can tell by his reaction. Why else would he go from flirting with her to barely acknowledging that she exists. He initiated it, he could at least have the decency to let her down nicely. She hasn't done anything to deserve being completely ignored, she is at least honest about her history. There is no excuse for the way he is acting just because he could have acted worse.
> he could at least have the decency to let her down nicely
Everyone has a different definition of what that is, don't they? He might have thought he was letting her down nicely.
OP:
> I chatted with her for a little bit and then politely disengaged from the conversation to talk to some other girls. She tried to restart conversation with me a few more times, but each time I shut her down fast. Finally she left.
He did exactly what I would have done had I been talking to a girl and suddenly become disinterested. If I'm talking to a girl and she says/does something that turns me off or I see someone I'd rather talk to I do the exact same thing.
It's not like these two have a history or anything. He doesn't owe her anything or any explanation. Like I said earlier, what he did was probably better than flat out saying "it's because you used to have a dick" or something similar
Besides, that the OPs "confession" is worded in such a way that I barely believe it. Unless all of your friends are hardcore SJW-types they aren't going to start giving you the cold shoulder because you blew off a trans girl, or any girl for that matter.
I feel like everyone's missing the
> I chatted with her for a little bit and then politely disengaged from the conversation to talk to some other girls
Sounds like he was nice about it and moved on. If she kept trying to start up a conversation after that getting a cold shoulder happens.
I really don't see the issue with handling it like that.
> Sounds like he was nice about it and moved on.
Exactly. It sounds like both her and the guy's friend expected more from him. If you politely disengage from conversation and move on what are you supposed to do if someone keeps trying to talk to you?
>> I feel like everyone's missing the
> I chatted with her for a little bit and then politely disengaged from the conversation to talk to some other girls
Of course they are, they want this guy to be a transphobic asshole because it fits their agenda.
Either that or they have no idea how flirting works.
> It's not like these two have a history or anything. He doesn't owe her anything or any explanation.
This, exactly. The current standard standard dating advice is to never give reasons for rejection and to not expect them if you are rejected, especially if there's no actual relationship involved. This guy was following standard operating procedure.
The problem is that he doesn't seem to care at all that he may have hurted her feelings. If someone acted all nice to me and then gives me the cold shoulder the next I would feel pretty shitty. He didn't tell his friends about the situation ''I didn't want to lead her on, I feel bad.'', but ''I'm not into her, so I ignored her.'' I would get pissed off at my friend too if I heard he started ignoring a person, because he decided he doesn't want to have sex with her. Not that I would want him to have sex with her, but the fact that was all he cared about, the only reason why he talked to her. I doubt his friends really demanded that he should date her, more likely that they wanted acknowledgement that he sees her as a person and a woman.
>The problem is that he doesn't seem to care at all that he may have hurted her feelings
I don't really buy that he has to, but besides that I don't know a way to tell someone "sorry, not into you" without making them feel at least somewhat bad.
It's part of dating. You either risk getting turned down (sometimes for even more trivial reasons) or you don't try. This just seems absurd to put on him.
What if he said "sure" and a couple weeks later decided it wasn't working and broke up. Should he not because that could hurt her feelings too?
>I heard he started ignoring a person, because he decided he doesn't want to have sex with her. Not that I would want him to have sex with her, but the fact that was all he cared about, the only reason why he talked to her.
Sex is a vital part of a relationship to many people. If you found out you didn't want to have sex with someone that's a valid reason to break it off. Similarly people dump SO's because they don't want to have sex with them anymore. That's also not horrible.
To me, not pursuing a relationship with someone you don't want to have sex with is like not pursuing a relationship with someone you don't want to talk to. It's going to affect a relationship later on, why string people along until you hit the point you can't go on, when you knew it before it started. That seems worse to me.
>more likely that they wanted acknowledgement that he sees her as a person and a woman.
He did, and he showed that by politely declining and moving on when he was no longer interested. That's pretty standard. I'm surprised this is even a big deal.
He doesn't have to go out with her. The problem is him ignoring her, which hurt her feelings, because he doesn't want to deal with what he started.
Again he doesn't have to date her or have sex with her, he went wrong when it came on handling the rejection. Instead of being nice to her when it he hoped that if he ignored it for long enough his problems would go away.
He didn't politely decline at all since he ignored her. Imagine asking a friend if they want to hang out and instead of saying no with an excuse they just hang up the phone. There is a difference with politely saying no and ignoring her constantly.
>He doesn't have to go out with her. The problem is him ignoring her, which hurt her feelings, because he doesn't want to deal with what he started.
Which is fine. No one is obligated to sit with someone they've rejected and make them feel better. It's part of life for most people.
>He didn't politely decline at all since he ignored her. Imagine asking a friend if they want to hang out and instead of saying no with an excuse they just hang up the phone. There is a difference with politely saying no and ignoring her constantly.
He said he chatted with her a bit more then politely excused himself. He ignored her when she kept coming up to him. Which people do. He already politely excused himself. There's no requirement to re-engage with someone every time they want if you've already left.
Sure, he could have done things different. But by and large this is one of the least asshole-y ways I've seen people handle rejecting people.
>I chatted with her for a little bit and then politely disengaged from the conversation to talk to some other girls. She tried to restart conversation with me a few more times, but each time I shut her down fast. Finally she left.
Gee, sounds like he politely declined.
The guy wasn't a dick, it just sounds like the woman is socially awkward and doesn't know how to pick up on cues.
> The problem is that he doesn't seem to care at all that he may have hurted her feelings.
People's feelings get hurt all the time when you're in that sort of pick-up/dating situation. It's not a big deal.
>more likely that they wanted acknowledgement that he sees her as a person and a woman.
Why should it matter how he sees her? What business of their's is it? He ignored her, most likely treating her like any other WOMAN he wasn't interested in. It wasn't like he got everyone's attention, pointed, laughed and said "look at the tranny in the corner" which would have been cruel and warrant an explanation.
You people seem to think he owes her something just because he talked/flirted with her for a few minutes at a party. He doesn't.
If OP was a woman who repeatedly tried to "shut down" a polite man she lost interest in, it would be a shitshow against her and I bet there would be some "creep shaming" accusations.
It's because he acted like an asshole. It sounds like he ignored her and probably wasn't up front with how he felt even though she was up front with him and proceeded to either ignore her or be rude to her until she got the point. Trust me I know it's hard to tell people how you feel, but that's life.
>I chatted with her for a little bit and then politely disengaged from the conversation to talk to some other girls
What's being an asshole about that. After politely disengaging he doesn't have to re-engage every time after that.
I mean, it doesn't sound like she said she was trans and he just stood up and walked away silently.
And then right after that:
> She tried to restart conversation with me a few more times, but each time I shut her down fast. Finally she left.
He could have just said, "Sorry x, I'm no longer interested," and left. Instead he got really weird and made it more awkward.
If a woman or man comes up to me, and I politely turn them down.
And then they seem to think there's a chance and keep coming up to me and trying again, I'm going to just shut them down. It gets a bit annoying if someone keeps trying when you've already nicely said no.
I didn't read the part where he turned her down.
>>I chatted with her for a little bit and then politely disengaged from the conversation to talk to some other girls
That sure sounds like being turned down.
Who would think that the rape apologist would take the side of a transphobic dickhead?
I love that comment. I stand behind it 100% and I love when people link to it. Here, let me quote it so people don't have to click on the link:
>He kind of has a point. I don't want to get into a debate about the relative strength of men and women but in the scenario described in the article I'm pretty sure the guy could have stopped it if he had wanted to. I tend to call "bullshit" on a lot of women raping men scenarios that involve PIV sex. Sorry. I mean, you don't say "STOP" or try to push her off of you? You just lay there? I don't think so. If you're in that situation and you really don't want to be having sex with the girl you're going to say something or do something to try to get her to stop. It's just a weird fucking situation. If I wake up and some strange woman is on top of me (fucking me or not) I'm not just going to lie there, I'm going to do something, anything to get her off of me. Now I'm not saying that the dude should have started beating her in the head with his fist (although I think that's a valid reaction) but he should have/could have done more than just lie there in "disbelief." Not outrage, not panic, not pain, not shock, but "disbelief."
But I'm interested, why do you think this guy is transphobic? Just because he doesn't want to have sex with a trans person? That's not transphobia, that's his personal preference. He can pick and choose who he does and doesn't have sex with, regardless of the criteria. It's his body and no one has the right to tell him his choices are right or wrong, as long as they don't break any law.
Besides, he treated the trans girl probably exactly like he'd treat any other girl he wasn't interested in. If anything, I think he handled the situation in exactly the right way.
Seriously, do you think people are obligated to have sex with a trans person, even if the fact that they are trans is a turn off? If you do, that's fucked up.
Would you also like to stand behind your comment that guys can't get raped?
> But I'm interested, why do you think this guy is transphobic?
Upon learning that girl is trans, he stops treating her as a human being and being unnecessarily douchey. And yeah I'd argue you're pretty transphobic if the sole reason you stop being interested in someone is because they're trans. We rag on people all the time for not wanting to date black girls and generally conclude that's pretty racist to never consider it, why is the standard not the same for trans woman?
And no, he's not obligated to fuck her, but his preferences are kinda fucked if being trans is that much of a turn off.
>And yeah I'd argue you're pretty transphobic if the sole reason you stop being interested in someone is because they're trans
I think there is trans phobia, I don't think that's an example of it at all. It's just a preference. I also think that's watering down the word so much that people start to think "hey, if that's what trans phobia is, that's not a big deal".
I also think that's a dangerous as hell road to walk down. Preferences should never be denigrated like that. Is being gay "heterophobic"? Is being straight "homophobic"? I really don't think we should start going that route. Really don't.
>We rag on people all the time for not wanting to date black girls and generally conclude that's pretty racist to never consider it
I also see a bunch of people arguing that's not racist at all when people bring it up.
I just tend to not find black women or men as attractive as other races (pale white guys or Arabian women for example). That's not racist at all.
The key distinction in all of that is "I think X race or Cis/trans makes them horrible people so I will not date them" that's racist. But that's not the preference that's racist, it's the racism that's racist.
>but his preferences are kinda fucked if being trans is that much of a turn off.
To you and I it is because (I'm assuming for you) our preferences include trans*. But it's a personal deal, nothing wrong with it.
>I think there is trans phobia, I don't think that's an example of it at all. It's just a preference. I also think that's watering down the word so much that people start to think "hey, if that's what trans phobia is, that's not a big deal".
All transphobia, big and small, is worth confronting.
>I also think that's a dangerous as hell road to walk down. Preferences should never be denigrated like that. Is being gay "heterophobic"? Is being straight "homophobic"? I really don't think we should start going that route. Really don't.
No, but but being attracted to someone and then dropping it the moment you learn at one point they were a gender you weren't attracted to is transphobic. Trans* people are very much the gender they identify with.
>I also see a bunch of people arguing that's not racist at all when people bring it up.
>I just tend to not find black women or men as attractive as other races (pale white guys or Arabian women for example). That's not racist at all.
>The key distinction in all of that is "I think X race or Cis/trans makes them horrible people so I will not date them" that's racist. But that's not the preference that's racist, it's the racism that's racist.
If your preferences preclude EVER dating someone of another race, that's racist. Same deal applies here. This guy was well and good attracted until he learned the woman changed her body to match her gender. He wouldn't even consider her because of it, even as a friend. That's transphobic as fuck.
>To you and I it is because (I'm assuming for you) our preferences include trans*. But it's a personal deal, nothing wrong with it.
There's something very wrong with excluding whole groups of people when searching for a partner.
>but his preferences are kinda fucked if being trans is that much of a turn off.
This is insanely ridiculous. It's about sexual preference, that's it. I'm Hispanic, go ahead and give me shit for not liking (as in, being sexually attracted, or, not having the preference of) to your average American white blonde girl.
>average American white blonde girl
well you already kind of differentiated yourself from OP in 2 ways. 1 you say "average" as in you are open to it if the girl clicked with you but you dont feel you would click with the average AWBG. the 2nd is informed by this in that if somehow you didnt know a girl was average american white and blonde and you were talking and then you somehow suddenly learned this fact i can pretty much assume from what you're saying you wouldnt shut her down just for that, if you were clicking in every other way.
To exclude an entire race of people before even starting searching for a partner is racist as fuck. Likewise, dropping someone like a hot potato (who keep in mind this person was already attracted to) when you learn about trans* status is transphobic. Sorry buddy.
Man, you truly do see things in black and white. That explains a lot. You never answer the situation someone else posted here. If I don't want to have sex with a gay fellow, I'm suddenly homophobic?
good game.
No you're not, because you're not attracted to men. Trans woman are still woman. Not being attracted to them solely because of their trans status is transphobic.
This implies that I should be attracted to every single woman out there, regardless of race, trans status, personality, social class, hair color, eyes, shoe size, dress size, etc, etc, etc and every combination of these traits.
To every single one, otherwise, I'm a bigot of some form or another.
No it doesn't. Learn to fucking read. You don't HAVE to be attracted to every black girl/white girl/trans girl/fat girl etc. NO ONE is saying that and Lord knows I'm not. But excluding them entirely just on that basis is discriminatory as fuck.
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>Likewise, dropping someone like a hot potato (who keep in mind this person was already attracted to) when you learn about trans* status is transphobic.
How is sexual preference transphobic? With that logic, you should be required to sleep with anyone at any time just because they asked. Is that how you live your life?
That's not what I'm saying at all. He was completely fine with sleeping with this woman, and probably would have slept with her if she never disclosed her trans* status. The fact that not knowing whether she was trans* meant a hookup was likely is transphobic. It's like saying I would never date someone who USED to be fat. How the fuck does that make any sense?
It sounds like OP was turned off by the fact that she used to have a penis and there body is not entirely, biologically female. That sounds like a preference, not transphobia. He just wasn't interested in her as a sexual partner. If he'd indicated that he didn't think she was a 'real woman' or some other nonsense, sure, that would be transphobia.
Comparing trans* to being fat or formerly fat is just ridiculous.
It is implied that she's not a real woman by suddenly being turned off by her trans status. If this woman wasn't trans he would sleep with her. He's treating her different from every other woman because of it, because in his mind he considers her "not a woman".
> Would you also like to tand behind your comment that guys can't get raped?
Sure. I don't think that women can rape men. At least not when it comes to PIV sex.
>Upon learning that girl is trans, he stops treating her as a human being and being unnecessarily douchey.
I think he's treating her exactly like he would treat any woman he wasn't interested in.
He's at a party, there are lots of women around. She does/says something that turns him off. Why does he have to spend any more time talking to her if he knows it's not going to lead anywhere? Why does he owe her anything?
>We rag on people all the time for not wanting to date black girls and generally conclude that's pretty racist to never consider it
I don't think that's racist and I'm a black guy. You date who you want to date because it's your body and your preference. If I was hitting on a white woman and she told me she wouldn't date/sleep with me because I'm black I'd be fine with that. After all, there are plenty of other fish in the sea.
>And no, he's not obligated to fuck her, but his preferences are kinda fucked if being trans is that much of a turn off.
Why? It's a HUGE turn off for me. I simply don't want to fuck someone who has a dick or used to have a dick, no matter what other factors might come into play. It's just not my cup of tea.
>Sure. I don't think that women can rape men. At least not when it comes to PIV sex.
I think this comment kinda stands by itself.
>I think he's treating her exactly like he would treat any woman he wasn't interested in.
>He's at a party, there are lots of women around. She does/says something that turns him off. Why does he have to spend any more time talking to her if he knows it's not going to lead anywhere? Why does he owe her anything?
He owes her basic respect. If he can't manage that for normal woman either, he's got some major fucking issues to work out.
>I don't think that's racist and I'm a black guy. You date who you want to date because it's your body and your preference. If I was hitting on a white woman and she told me she wouldn't date/sleep with me because I'm black I'd be fine with that. After all, there are plenty of other fish in the sea.
Congrats. It's still racist regardless of whether you think it is or not.
>Why? It's a HUGE turn off for me. I simply don't want to fuck someone who has a dick or used to have a dick, no matter what other factors might come into play. It's just not my cup of tea.
You're a transphobe. Simple as that. Also note that you can refuse sex with someone pre-OP without questioning their womanhood. Or flipping a shit.
> You're a transphobe. Simple as that.
OK, if not wanting to have sex with a trans person makes me a transphobe then so be it. I'm a big, huge transphobe.
Edit:
I guess that means that since I don't want to have sex with gay men I'm also a homophobe. My gay friends don't want to have sex with me so I guess they are heterophobes. They don't want to have sex with a FtM trans person either so they are also transphobes.
See how stupid you sound now?
Are you straight or gay? That would make you a homophobe or heterophobe as well I guess.
Only bi people who will date both Cis/trans with no racial preference are ok. Everyone else is screwed.
Keep putting words in my mouth. Real fucking cute.
I'm totally straight.
I guess I'm screwed.
Oh well, somehow I'll get over it :)
Except there's a whole class of woman you won't even consider because it somehow affects your straightness.
I hope you end up in an LTR relationship where the person decides to never disclose their trans status (as is their right to do so). It'd be amusing, especially if you found out after the fact.
That's a shitty situation for everyone involved. You are horrible fucked up person for wanting that, I hope you realize that.
Hey I was hoping Mr. Rape Apologist up there might learn something and be able to reconcile his partners trans status with his love for them. Or he'd throw away a perfectly good relationship and be miserable for a good while. Either way is fair to me.
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Not going to happen but thanks...
That's what looking at baby pictures is for. :)
it's ok to not find a trans* person attractive or want to date them. what's not ok is acting like a giant douche about it and telling everyone who will listen how you don't want to date them and find them unattractive. just turn them down as you would any other person you are not interested in. it's not an assault on your masculinity/femininity, they're not trying to trick you or whatever. just a simple "i'm not itnerested" will do and you can be on your way.
His friends were asking him specifically why he turned her down.
how was he a douche?
> I chatted with her for a little bit and then politely disengaged from the conversation to talk to some other girls
But she kept trying to initiate convo and he just acted indifferent ... you dont owe anyone your time.
It is still a douche move, though. She kept trying to initiate convo, because he as all nice to her first. It just comes of as ''Never mind, not interested anymore, now you are not worth my time.'' She may have been just trying to be his friend, for all we know. How are we even certain that she is interested in him at all?
since when do you owe anyone your time? He knew he wasn't interested so why bother? you're acting like it was his obligation to ease the sting of rejection.
Just because someone doesn't deserve your time, which sounds pretty mean to be honest, doesn't mean he needs to act like an ass. Just say ''Sorry, not interested'', than you at least treat them like a person instead of air. He was the one who started flirting, he can atleast act decent. If you try to make someone interested in you you can at least own up to it when they do get interested, otherwise it is just comes off as emotional manipulation. Being an asshole may not be illegal, but it is still not something that is preferred.
This sounds too much like a reddit wish fulfillment/power fantasy for me to take it seriously. It hits all the right notes, and trans drama is SO HOT RIGHT NOW.
For a lot of men on reddit this seems to be the ultimate "nosleep" story: they are hit on by someone who makes them uncomfortable! The horror.
"It was a typical Wednesday. I was walking to high school, the sweet, sweet sounds of Queen playing on my rooted Android smartphone. In my mind I was debating silly fundamentalists on the merits of atheism and I was winning.
As "Another One Bites the Dust" slowly faded, I heard a terrifying sound. Curious, I took my headphones off one ear and cautiously looked around. What happened next made my blood run cold just thinking about it.
"Ehhhh, cutie!" I head a female voice say at my direction. I remembered my red pill training and hurriedly fixed my trillby and dusted the cat hair off my flame shirt to look especially alpha. I turn slightly to my right and there she is, a 8.5/10 cutie. And she's looking at me.
She wasn't Jennifer Lawrence, but she was definitely hittable. "You'd look better if you lost weight," I said. Well, said in my mind. Actually what I said was "Y-you talking to, erm, me?"
"Aw yeahhh boyee," she said. "Mmmm I want to get in that."
I began to apprise what would be my 124th (just first, actually) sexual conquest. And that's when I saw it.
Gentlemen and females. It was a bulge. And it was bigger than mine.
I quickly turned and fled. But that's when I heard it following me. Yelling things. "You'd look prettier if you smiled more!" it screamed at my back. My magic the gathering cards were falling from my backpack. But I didn't care.
It continued to follow. And it was getting angry. "Why the fuck don't you want me to buy you a drink? Why are you being such a cock tease? You're just a dirty man-slut!" Violence was imminent. I felt so scared. No karma was worth this.
As I rounded the corner, I saw it. Typically a symbol of oppression (teachers, amirite) my high school loomed like a golden fortress. I ran inside, panting. Through the glass doors I saw it. Smiling at me. "You're so hawt," it exclaimed. "Well, maybe if you dressed better and changed your hair." I was disgusted. I didn't ask for fashion advice. Especially not from it.
And that's when it hit me. I need men's rights because some cross dressing transsexual might treat me like men treat women.
DAE feel like nobody knows how hard it is to be a white male in today's society."
Edit: just got back from practicing trigger discipline with my Super Soaker and I'm downvotes? Really?
Edit 2: yes, a lot have people have commented telling me I have more upvoted than down. The fact that I have any downvotes, however, goes against the me-centric worldview I've created. This thread is obviously being brigades by SRS. It's you virgin feminist sluts that are the reason I don't have a gf, not my hygiene like everyone says.
Edit 3: grammar
Edit 4: I thought reddit was a welcoming place where opinions were welcomed by welcoming welcomers. I was wrong.
Edit 5: I'm a grown up and now I'm going to say the word "reddiquette" and use it in a completely serious way.
Edit 5.5: you win, SRS. I'm sorry I was born white and male. I'm sorry I used the red pill for self betterment. Please, take all my jobs and university placements. I give up.
Edit 5.536218: I'm posting furious memes. I have friends who are mods on default subs. Everyone who downvote? Prepare to be shadowbanned.
Edit 6: grammar
Edit 7: grammar
Edit 8: goodbye forever reddit. I gave you the best 2 weeks of my life. And now I realize it's gone forever. Not even the super hilarious pictures in /r/funny can make me feels better now.
Edit 9: grammar
Edit 10: thanks for the gold, person who is definitely not an alt account I just created like 5 seconds ago.
/r/circlejerkcopypasta
Not sure if that's a compliment, but I added an edit complaining about downvotes to really bring out that musty Redditor flavor.
Damn, you're good. Have you thought about writing for /r/confession?
A place modded by SRS shills? Lol thanks but no thanks, friend.
I may have to do a dramatic reading of this later this afternoon. This is amazing.
you are a precious gift
I know, mom! You told me that like a million times yesterday. GEEZ
Not only that but the word usage in the "conversation" seems straight from r/tumblrinaction. Not only did OP hit all the right notes but also used the perfect language to create some drama and responses.
I'm going with troll
What I find wrong with the OP is that after mentioning that he couldn't get a boner anymore because he found out she was a previously a guy he started ignoring her. He stopped treating her like a person after he found out he wasn't interested in putting his dick in her. He doesn't have to date her, but he shouldn't be an asshole to her.
He didn't stop treating her like a person, he stopped engaging with her because he was no longer interested. Initially, he was romantically/sexually interested but after finding out that she was transsexual, there was no reason to continue to converse since he doesn't want to date a trans*woman. He didn't want to be friends. Signs can be easily confused and misinterpreted.
It's the same concept as if a younger guy meets a perspective woman they want to date but suddenly finds out she has a bunch of kids. Most young men will just nope right out. I don't see anything wrong with just avoiding awkward conversation once you know something isn't going work out.
If anything, he minimized a bigger scene then what could've happen. If he instead is blunt and says "I'm sorry but I don't date trans*women" that would cause more of a stir IMO. Just rejecting her advances for the rest of the night sent a clear sign while not making a scene.
Maybe it is just me, but I think that is a wrong way of rejection. He found out something he doesn't like that is his problem, the transgirl did nothing wrong by simply existing, attracting him and turning out not being something he wants. He doesn't want her and now she must be ignored so that he doesn't have to deal with something he initiated. He is treating her badly, by ignoring her, it clearly bothered her since she opened up to other people about it. It is not so much about avoiding awkward conversation as it is hurting someone else's feelings. He may see it as a way out, but that still doesn't make it a nice thing to do.
I think being clear and direct would certainly be nicer, but it sort of goes against the grain of most advice given about these sorts of situations, which focus on the rejector avoiding unwanted confrontation.
>He found out something he doesn't like that is his problem, the transgirl did nothing wrong by simply existing
OP didn't claim she did anything wrong, he just didn't want to date her.
>He doesn't want her and now she must be ignored so that he doesn't have to deal with something he initiated. He is treating her badly, by ignoring her, it clearly bothered her since she opened up to other people about it
This same scenario has played out countless times. Guy approaches girl at bar. She doesn't want to embarrass him but wants to make it clear she doesn't like him so she gives him the cold-shoulder. Rejection is part of life. Everyone can go about their business. If he would've just told her he isn't interested in dating her because she is transsexual, she would've still went back and told his friends. Resulting in her still being hurt and his friends still being mad at him.
I meant that she doesn't deserve bad treatment because she didn't turn out what he wanted her to be. It is not the same situation as meeting a stranger at a bar. He was all nice to her first on and then cold. That is not the same as never being nice or showing interest in the first place. You feel a lot more hurt when someone you know suddenly acts cold to you than that one person you'll never see again.
That's why I used the single mother example in one of my other comments. Some men, and women for that matter, drop all interest once they find out someone they're romantically interested is a parent.
Maybe it was because he didn't want to lead her on if he thought she was flirting with him
It is still a really cold way of acting. Finding out someone is trans and then refusing to even talk to them is comes over as pretty shitty thing to do and comes over as pretty negative, which has probably more to do with his friends reaction than his refusal to date her. It stops being about her not being something that he wants to date, but to her being something he doesn't even wants to talk to.
If he just wanted to be friends with her and started acting cold once she revealed herself as trans* then that would be mean. But once you add the romantic spin to it, it puts things into perspective. His rejection made it clear he had no interest.
>refusing to even talk to them is comes over as pretty shitty thing to do and comes over as pretty negative, which has probably more to do with his friends reaction than his refusal to date her
The dialogue the OP transcribed shows his friends were angry because he does not want to date trans* women, not about him being cold to the girl. They could be angry at him for other reasons but that would just be speculation. It depends what type of people he hangs out with though. If they are basically a LGBT circle, then I find it likely that his friends got angry at him just because he didn't want to date a transsexual. Just look at the last big trans* related drama thread linked from SRSsucks in /r/SRD. There was a decent amount of people who were angry because people didn't want to date trans*individuals.
He claims that his friend said ''There's literally no difference between a transwoman and a cis woman'' ... there are very few people in the real world who would say that, and I guess they would be people who are deeply involved in LGBT or trans activist groups
Yea, I don't even think most people who identified as LGBT would say that. He either has to be friends with bunch of trans* women and men or the story is fake.
There is nothing dehumanizing about ignoring someone.
I still cringe a bit when I see or hear someone say "the n word."
I use the phrase "the n word" if I need to refer to the n word. I think it just gives the proper respect to the damage associated with that word.
I mean obviously we disagree, but I think that if people are discussing problematic language, they need to be able to identify and refer to the language itself.
I think it pays more "respect to the damage associated with" a word like "nigger" when we honestly confront it and its ugliness.
Well I think we agree the point is to acknowledge what the word represents, and even though it can be spoken of in a clinical way I think it's better habit to avoid it if possible (and for most people it's always possible).
personally I think that by trying to hide it and turning it into a boogie man, we're giving it more power. We're putting the word on a pedestal. The forbidden fruit is more tempting etc.
Well if you're having a conversation about the word in the first place then you're already not avoiding it. But hey, different strokes.
>Maybe I just don't understand
Now that's something we can agree on.