Are trans-women really women? SRSsucks discusses (np.reddit.com)
SubredditDrama
107 ups - 63 downs = 44 votes
404 comments submitted at 18:47:15 on May 9, 2014 by le_narwhal_king
Are trans-women really women? SRSsucks discusses (np.reddit.com)
SubredditDrama
107 ups - 63 downs = 44 votes
404 comments submitted at 18:47:15 on May 9, 2014 by le_narwhal_king
Yes, they are really women.
However, they have to understand that people (men especially) are going to think of them differently when it comes to sex. I want to say that most men wouldn't consider them real women for the purposes of sex.
That's how I think about it. They are real women but for the purposes of sex I don't consider them women. No offense to any trans person reading this. You're great and I respect you, etc... but chances are I'm going to rule you out as a sexual partner because you're trans. Pre-op, post-op it doesn't matter.
However, I consider that the same as ruling out someone with blonde hair because you don't like blondes. There's nothing wrong with being blonde, they just aren't some people's cup of tea.
I've been accused of being transphobic before in SRD and nothing could be further from the truth. I respect you, I just don't want to fuck you.
Maybe i'm just extra cynical, but I'd expect that most, if not all, transwomen are well aware of the fact that a lot of people think like you. They expect to be treated as outsiders who don't belong in either gender anymore, because what you're describing here isn't a unique way of thinking.
People seem to post comments starting with
>they have to understand...
as if they think trans people aren't aware of how little most of the population likes them.
So they see this and it's not some revelation, it's just met with "yeah, we get it. People don't like us. Thanks for the reminder". Hear it enough and there's a good chance you'll start being hostile.
> Maybe i'm just extra cynical, but I'd expect that most, if not all, transwomen are well aware of the fact that a lot of people think like you.
It's like when people say they're totes "pro-gay" but feel the need to make it absolutely clear they still find gay sex (between men of course) disgusting as if we haven't heard it before, or even care.
Yes. We get it. We've got it our whole lives. People actually very rarely let us forget.
You aren't telling us anything new, and nobody asked for your opinion anyway. Just shut up already. We get it!
I think /u/Jrex13 is trying to say that, in his opinion, most heterosexual males wouldn't be exactly enthusiastic about the idea of having sex with a pre/post-op transgender-ed woman, however, would be fine with being friends with them or thinking of them as women.
It's like we're deviating into the "nice guys" argument again. Just because someone doesn't want to have sex with you, doesn't mean they can't be your friend.
Note: I am not TRYING to get to /r/SubredditDramax3, but it seems like that's what's going to happen.
I...I'm Jrex13?
I do get what he's saying, and don't think that's a bad point of view or he's wrong for feeling that way.
I just think trans people are very aware that most people feel that way. He's not telling them anything they don't already know all to well, and some will likely react negatively to hearing it because it feels like rubbing salt in the wound, in a sense.
Honestly, I'm not hostile and I have nothing against trans women.
It does piss me off when people argue that I'm somehow wrong or a transphobe for not wanting to have sex with a trans person.
I'm not trying to say that you are hostile or anything along those lines.
Mostly I'm saying that, because trans people are acutely aware of how society in general sees them they would react negatively to a statement like this one.
Like, they could see it not as you trying to tell them something new, but almost rubbing the reality of their situation in their face.
You are so on the ball I don't think even you realise...
Why can't they just be women you don't want to have sex with?
They can be and absolutely are, but I think a lot of people still view that mindset as "transphobic."
> a lot
A very small lot.
I mean, look at the voting in this thread...
> [the people] voting in this thread...
A very small lot.
it seems kind of 50/50 right now. I wouldn't say it was a small lot. In the real, sane world yes. In reddit land, it's common place to call people transphobic for simply not wanting to sleep with trans people.
Yeah, I agree with you about the proportion, but it's still a tiny number. I bet there's less than 50 people voting here, total.
160 people had voted in the top comment of this thread when I loaded the page, which is the very definition of "small sample size". So yes, it is a small lot.
"Trans" doesn't describe anything about a person except for the fact that they were born with a particular sex of genitals, whether they still have them or not. Saying "I'm not attracted to trans* people" is as good as saying that either (a) you're ill informed and think that trans* people are stereotypes, or (b) you're put off by the "trans" part rather than the "people". In other words, you're not open to getting to know trans* people as individuals and judge them as partners individually.
I understand (a), and I hope we get more awareness out there so that people aren't being unintentionally bigoted. (b) I think is silly, and I wish people could be more open to the idea that maybe there's something wrong with that mindset. You don't have to be attracted to every trans* person you meet--you don't have to be attracted to any trans* person you meet--but just automatically putting them all under the same umbrella and writing them off is closed-minded and, yeah, kinda transphobic.
I honestly don't know what to say. I want to fuck someone with a fully-functioning penis, transmen do not have this, and therefore I do not want to fuck them. This isn't about personality or how wonderful you are on the inside; it’s about dick, plain and simple.
There's a difference between transmen and transwomen, though. A transwoman who is post-op can be indistinguishable from a ciswoman. Transmen are not so lucky. I don't think there's anything transphobic about not being into the genitals if they don't match your preference, but if it's a vagina, it's not a penis anymore.
Looks wise I agree they are indistinguishable. However, the idea of a spliced, inverted penis instead of a vagina is a legitimate turn off for some. That doesn't make us transphobes.
What world do you live in where the genitals of a person don't matter for sexual attraction? That is why trans women are dismissed by many men for the purpose of a sexual relationship. I love how open minded SJWs are, until someone says they have a sexual preference they don't agree with.
Do you tell gay men they're trans phobes for not wanting to sleep with a man with a vagina?
>trans women are dismissed by many men for the purpose of a sexual relationship
Good thing I'm not interested in men either! :p
I would agree. That is a good thing.
It's not transphobic to say I don't like the idea of my partner having an inverted spliced penis in place of her vagina. People are allowed to have preferences I'm afraid.
someone being trans provides both social and biological issues to a lot of people. if someone is strait they probably are into biological women not just people who identify as such. if i met a guy( who fully identified as a guy) who had pretty much everything i would want in a woman, great personality, shared interests, etc.... i wouldn't consider him a romantic possibility because i'm heterosexual. i think most people just feel that same sort of way about transexuals. where's the harm in that.
Heya, actual trans woman here. I'm just speaking for myself here (as opposed to a certain person who's putting words in /u/TheWorstPartOfMyDay's mouth), but I wouldn't be offended if someone broke off a relationship because I still have my original plumbing. I get it, some women want nothing to do with penises, it's just a part of life. Better to break it off early than have a Crying Game moment, after all.
What /u/TheWorstPartOfMyDay said. If I can't ejaculate while touching your cervix with the tip of my penis I don't want to have sex with you.
I'm not going to be mad that I "got tricked" or even offended. Even if we went on a date or three. I wouldn't even be slightly uncomfortable, but it's just not going to happen.
The fact that they had male junk at one point is a HUGE turn off for me.
Then don't fuck them. They're still ladies.
I never said they weren't. I specifically said they were women but I don't consider them women for my own personal classification when it comes to sex and only sex. For every other aspect of my life I consider them women.
There's a huge fucking difference between that and being "transphobic."
There's a ton of guys I don't want to fuck, I still consider them men. I'm not really getting your logic, women are only women if you want to have sex with them?
If that's what you want to think fine. It's not the case but whatever, I'm tired of trying to explain something I shouldn't have to explain because it's a personal preference.
Females are females and males are males. Heterosexual males only want to have sex with females. Gender never enters the equation.
Hope that clears it up.
Ras, if you're into her I say give it a shot, brother. If it looks like a lady, and quacks like a lady...
The past is the past, man. Let loose your love. It's a different world out there. Better to have loved and lost, I say.
It's a mental block. What can I say?
I realize there are attractive trans women out there. I've even met a few pre and post-op. It's just not for me.
I'll tell you a story. Growing up, I was in an incredibly white neighborhood, and there were like, 5 black kids in my high school, none of which ended up in the same cliques as me so I had no interaction with any of them.
Now, because I'm awesome, I ended up with guys hitting on me all the time on the internet. One of these guys was also really awesome. He accepted me for me without question and we'd talk about everything interesting and technological and good anime. We got talking, and eventually we exchanged pictures. He said he was cute, and I was... put off by his skin color. I don't know, I guess because I thought my boyfriend would eventually be white because that's the default I was raised with. I almost considered breaking it off there, but I realized how awful I was being for wanting to end a relationship because my boyfriend looked black. I resisted every stupid urge in my head and went along with the relationship, and I did not regret it.
If I had broken up with my boyfriend for having dark skin, I would have missed out on so many wonderful memories, and would've lost one of the most supportive men in my life, for something he had no control over. It would've been my lost, and now, looking back, I can only see my reaction to him as racist and terrible.
I don't know why it's so difficult for people to understand that as a guy the thought of having sex with someone who either still has or had a dick is unappealing to me.. I'm sorry but it just is.
I find it offensive that trans people and their allies don't understand this and expect me to somehow automatically be attracted to them. That's just not going to happen.
To be honest, trans girls just want to live their lives, post-transition, there really shouldn't be much to tip you off one way or the other, and as such, if you do end up dating a girl that's full stealth, there's a good chance that she may not tell you. But if you found out, what would you do to her? Instantly reject her after having a relationship for some time? Abuse or kill her? Somehow try to blame her for the sudden distress you'll bring into the relationship because somehow she's unclean?
I don't expect everyone to be attracted to me. I mean, I'm gorgeous, but if stunning beauty is not your thing, I but I want trans people to not have to live in constant anxiety from people like you who would like their pasts and their parts to consume their presents. We don't want stupid shit that we couldn't control getting in our ways as people.
Yes, it was fucking racist of me to think a dark skinned person could be undesirable, and yes it's just as transphobic to think the same way about trans people.
But, I see the root of the issue still lies in gender. [Some] Cis* people aren't comfortable with the concept of gender, and as such, are getting into fits of anxiety over it. What makes someone afraid of trans people? Is it that liking a trans person could be considered being tricked into being gay? What's wrong with being gay? Is it that a guy becomes a woman if he's in a relationship with another guy?
*EDIT: Sorry, I generalized. It was unfair.
> To be honest, trans girls just want to live their lives
No one is saying they can't.
However, I resent the notion that I'm somehow a "bad" person for not wanting to have sex with a trans woman. I'm not calling out you in particular but that's the prevailing notion in this thread.
I like who I like for sexual purposes and it doesn't matter if that excludes a certain race, gender, sexual orientation, whatever. It's my personal preference and I'm not going to be made to feel bad about it.
But your personal preferences can be bad. And sometimes, people should be made to feel bad about it.
If a woman is post-op trans and you couldn't tell and were attracted to her until she told you, then obviously you are physically attracted to her, and some illogical disgust with trans issues is what would change it. I'm not saying you should make yourself be attracted to trans people, but if you think you'd freak out if you found out that a woman you've had sex with was trans, then yeah, that's bigoted. It'd be like freaking out if you found out someone was born Jewish, even though they don't practice.
A lot of that is just deeply-rooted homophobia. It doesn't matter if that fully-functional vagina and clitoris used to be a penis. Every penis used to be a vagina/clitoris, because we were all female in utero for a while. You're not, in any universe, going to catch gay by having sex with a woman's vagina.
> But your personal preferences can be bad. And sometimes, people should be made to feel bad about it.
Christ on a bike! I thought this only happened on TV, but I genuinely almost choked on my tea when I read this comment.
I don't want to have sex with a person who was born with the same genitals as myself. I have nothing against trans people, but I should not - I repeat not - be made feel bad for this. In the exact same way that the gay community doesn't make me feel bad for not wanting to have sex with men.
Jeez, is it that hard for you to wrap your head around?!
Everyone keep it cool pls
Sorry. Use of exclamation marks may have implied I was getting more heated than I actually am. I was just surprised.
If you are attracted to someone until you find out something about them, you don't get to compare that "preference" to homosexuality. Gay men are not attracted to women until informed that they are not men.
> Gay men are not attracted to women until informed that they are not men.
I think they would be if they met someone who looked male and then they then got them undressed and found out they had a vagina or a prostetic penis.
That's not what I meant. I said that the Gay community doesn't make me (a straight male) feel bad for not wanting to have sex with gay men. Yet certain members of the SJ community want me to feel bad for not wanting to have sex with transgendered person who identifies as a woman.
> But your personal preferences can be bad.
No they can't because they are MY preferences and only affect me. It's not like I'm telling you not to have sex with a trans woman. I don't care what you do.
"I get to decide who you sleep with, and if you don't listen I'm going to mercilessly shame you." You are a horrible person.
I do find it odd that when someone brings up how they're uncomfortable with dating or having sex with a transperson, the anxiety the transperson feel is used to make them feel guilty.
Still smacks of thought policing to me.
It's not an appreciated opinion, and I consider it aggressively dehumanizing. It's not thought policing, it's a reminder that we are people, and you're being a fucking asshole.
I can recognize you're a person without agreeing with your entire worldview.
It is thought policing if it's "agree with me or you're an asshole".
No, saying you wouldn't fuck anyone for any reason as an unsolicited opinion is what makes you a judgmental asshole. I don't care if you wouldn't fuck her because she's black, or fat, or trans, what have you, you just don't need to fucking say it and show that you are incapable of seeing people as more than flesh.
I think a lot of the times people bring it up is just because reddit likes to call anyone who doesn't want to sleep with trans* a transphobe and so it's brought up in defense. I'm not saying you think that and I agree there's no need to bring it up for no reason.
Also, unfortunately as far as sexual attraction goes, we do see people as flesh. That doesn't mean we see people who we don't find attractive as less than us.
I'd even buy the flesh response, if they weren't keen on explain that, even post-op and passing, they still wouldn't date a trans girl. It isn't about the flesh, it's the idea that, at some level, a trans girl is somehow not a girl.
I do believe that, if a person's only reason for not dating a trans person of the gender they are into for the sole fact that they are trans*, then yes, they are being transphobic. They do not understand what trans* is, and usually they don't care to learn as uninformed opinions are somehow not only tolerated, but encouraged in society.
More Comments - Click Here
> No, saying you wouldn't fuck anyone for any reason as an unsolicited opinion what makes you a judgmental asshole.
"I'm not going to fuck this person because they're 14".
> I don't care if you wouldn't fuck her because she's black, or fat, or trans, what have you, you just don't need to fucking say it and show that you are incapable of seeing people as more than flesh.
That's just a non-sequitur. Expressing an opinion about a quality does not mean you only see that quality.
Why, in whatever context would you need to say: >"I'm not going to fuck this person because they're 14".
Would you have wanted to fuck the person in the first place, but then decided that it would be illegal, but you wanted to make sure everyone around you needed to know the reason because you didn't want to come across as someone who didn't want to break the law and were protesting that law?
More Comments - Click Here
I actually don't understand the mindset of not wanting to have sex with a post op transwoman. If you find her attractive and would normally but then find out she was born with a penis that would completely reverse and feelings you have? I'm a straight guy but I don't understand why that would upset you that much. Are people that afraid of penises or being called gay that they don't want to be with someone who used to have one?
If you are attracted to someone, and they have the type of genitals that you like.... I don't really like it.
And don't give me that people aren't attracted to males so if they used to be one it ruins it, I'm not attracted to children, and believe it or not my girlfriend used to be one.
I don't care if you understand it or not. It's my personal preference when it comes to sex. Sorry but I don't want to have sex with someone who has a penis or had one at one time.
It's not my personal preference to have sex with old ladies, I don't go out of my way telling people that whenever old ladies come up. Or old ladies being valid sexual partners. If you wouldn't do it fine, but stop telling people all the time, how do you think it makes them feel?
Also I stand by that I don't understand it, from my Internet couch psychology I assume you are scared of other dicks, being called gay, or have latent homosexual tendencies.
> It's not my personal preference to have sex with old ladies, I don't go out of my way telling people that whenever old ladies come up.
And there's the part that guys like rasterized don't get. No one accuses someone of being transphobic if they're just quietly not interested in transgendered people. How would anyone even know?
But when every single time the subject of old ladies comes up if some weirdo hopped up and down with barely contained excitement for another feeble excuse to go on and on and on and on and on about how grossed out he is by old ladies then yes, people are going to assume (probably correctly) that he has a problem with old ladies.
This is something like rasterizedline's 4000th "EWW TRANS PEOPLE DON'T DO IT FOR ME, HAVE I MENTIONED THAT YET" post in the last few months. Gosh, I can't imagine why people keep assuming he's transphobic.
Wait what exactly is his position on having sex with trans women? I wasn't able to figure it out after reading it 40 times in this one thread. I hope he clarifies again!
Edit: /s, in case that wasn't obvious.
Also:
>Gosh, I can't imagine why people keep assuming he's transphobic.
Also might have something to do with the fact that he said he doesn't consider trans women to be real women when it comes to sex (like sexual intercourse). IMO they should always be considered real women - whether you are attracted to them sexually or not.
First of all, this is reddit. I'm going to discuss whatever topic is brought up if I have an opinion on it. Likewise, I don't feel the need to go up to every trans woman I meet in real life and tell her I wouldn't fuck her. However, if she asked I'd tell her and I'll have no problem telling her why.
>Also I stand by that I don't understand it, from my Internet couch psychology I assume you are scared of other dicks, being called gay, or have latent homosexual tendencies.
Or maybe I just don't want to have sex with someone who was born with a penis.
Think of it this way, would you ask a gay man why he wouldn't want to have sex with a woman? It's the same thing.
>Think of it this way, would you ask a gay man why he wouldn't want to have sex with a woman? It's the same thing.
That would only be the same thing if the woman had a cock and looked like an attractive woman. That's a bad argument and you know it. I'm saying if the person meets your visual and genital needs.
I'm saying that the fact that the person has or had a penis will exclude them from meeting my needs. Regardless of everything else.
Yes, and that makes you a homophobe, even more than a transphobe. There isn't even a penis involved, but you're still so scared of your junk touching something that might have been a penis once!
Yeesh. It's just so ridiculous and immature.
> I'm saying that the fact that the person has or had a penis will exclude them from meeting my needs.
> Yes, and that makes you a homophobe.
Wow.
Maybe people call you transphobic because you're actually being quite transphobic?
>However, they have to understand that people (men especially) are going to think of them differently when it comes to sex. I want to say that most men wouldn't consider them real women for the purposes of sex. That's how I think about it. They are real women but for the purposes of sex I don't consider them women.
I mean seriously? They suddenly stop being real women as soon your penis enters the equation? You're fine with accepting them as real women until they enter the bedroom in which case they suddenly cease to be?
Anyone can deny sex for any reason ever. If the other person doesn't want to have sex with a transwoman, then they don't have to.
Nowhere in my post did I say people are required to fuck transwomen.
Of course they don't have to. But their reasons can still make them assholes. An opinion isn't good or just simply because it exists.
How is that transphobic at all? I'm sorry, I'm a guy and I don't want to have sex with someone who either still has or used to have a dick.
That is in no way, shape, or form appealing to me sexually and if that makes me transphobic then so be it.
>I'm sorry, I'm a guy and I don't want to have sex with someone who either still has or used to have a dick.
If that's your personal preference than that's ok, just don't expect everyone to agree with you. I called you transphobic because of this sentence in particular:
>They are real women but for the purposes of sex I don't consider them women.
I honestly don't understand it. You're fine with trans-women being women up until you get an erection at which point they stop being women?
I'm saying that for purposes of sex I personally don't consider them women because they either have a penis or had one.
My phrase was just a way of saying that. People need to stop being so up tight and reactionary. It doesn't mean I hate trans women or don't think they are women. I just don't want to have sex with them.
> You're fine with accepting them as real women until they enter the bedroom in which case they suddenly cease to be?
Let's get straight to the point, shall we?
Everyone here in this site, discussion, and thread is trying not to be a bigot. I get that.
But let's get to the point here. Would you, as a presumably heterosexual man,have sex with someone who you knew was transgender, and was physically attractive to you?
Unless you were a bisexual or pan-sexual man I sincerely doubt you would say yes to a pre-op. Maybe yes to a post-op.
But let's be honest here: Even if the technology existed to switch brains/bodies with someone, post-switch people would STILL have people saying they wouldn't have sex with them.
...On a completely related note, I actually haven't had sex with anyone, so I can't judge.
Just trying to point out a couple of viewpoints here.
Lets say you're at a bar and you meet someone you're insanely attracted to and you hit it off. Everything goes well and you're very much ready to sleep with them but they let you know they're a transwoman. What suddenly changes there that rules them out? Would you feel the same towards someone that had been born with a DSD/ambiguous sex?
I fully respect that people wouldn't want to sleep with a transwoman for whatever reason, the thing I have issue with is trying to reach an understanding of that reason. It's often boiled down to "they used to have a penis" but as I mentioned this could be true of a woman born with a DSD.
Note: I'm not trying to have a go at you, just a discussion.
Note 2: I don't know if it is but I by no means want to be offensive with referring to DSDs and if it's out of line I'll happily edit the comment.
Note 3: People can deny to sleep with anyone for whatever reason they want. I don't think it makes them a bigot.
> It's often boiled down to "they used to have a penis"
Yeppp. Pretty much.
The key phrase here is used to
I'd date a transman (gay). I'm not attracted to women and don't like vaginas, but it's not a problem because (hello) there is no vagina anymore.
True. Though it's an opinion. I'm sure not all gays would date a trans man, just as not all straights would date a trans woman.
>But let's get to the point here. Would you, as a presumably heterosexual man,have sex with someone who you knew was transgender, and was physically attractive to you?
If I found them attractive then yes, I would.
You're not everyone, and you don't get to shame other people for their sexual preferences not including some specific person or persons.
Shaming someone for their sexual preferences is just as wrong as treating someone poorly for being male, female, intergendered*, transgendered, etc.
^*less ^sociologically ^problematic ^term ^for ^what ^some ^call ^"thirdgender"
I'm not shaming anyone for their sexuality, I'm pointing out that user's weird logic.
Sexual preferences don't have to be logical, and when someone is trying to put a non-logical thing into logical terms it often sounds weird and jumbled and off.
And i was using the general you, not the specific you.
When their sexual "preference" is a hard and fast rule of disgust based on something they would't even be able to know if they weren't told (and yes, I am just talking about the people who are afraid to "accidentally" sleep with a post-op transwoman), then yeah, I do get to shame them for it. Because they're as bad as a racist freaking out because they found out you had a black grandmother, or were born Jewish.
> fast rule of disgust
You don't get to tell other people how/why they think something, and the fact that you're making this presumption indicates that you have a chip on your shoulder
> Because they're as bad as a racist freaking out because they found out you had a black grandmother, or were born Jewish.
You're looking to pick a fight, you just want to shit on someone else and claim they're being a bigot.
The equality movement doesn't need you, go away.
Well then good for you. :)
Personally, I don't have the guts to see past that they were once a man.
Guess I'm a neanderthal. I see 'man' and 'women' as a function of biology. If you're born a male, you'll always be a male. No technology available at this time can change that.
What about men who have this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XXmalesyndrome
There are exceptions to any rule. Using some outlier like this, where you're talking about .00005% of men is not a solid foundation for your argument. You're talking about 75 people total in the United States.
I'd say that transgender folks are also an exception to the "rule"; especially when the rule of gender is an socially defined one.
The whole, "gender is a social construct" argument is unfounded. Medical professionals used the terms sex and gender interchangeably until some sociology professors decided they would publish a paper saying otherwise. Just based on the origin from which that idea came from, I can't support it without more compelling evidence. Its a philosophical theory that has yet to be proven or universally accepted at best.
>The whole, "gender is a social construct" argument is unfounded.
You should probably research this a bit before making claims like this. Google Scholar has a ton of scholarly articles about this.
>Medical professionals used the terms sex and gender interchangeably
Medical professionals also used to believe in lobotomies. Just because that "used to be how it was" doesn't mean it's correct.
>some sociology professors decided they would publish a paper saying otherwise.
Way to diminish a metric fuck load of research. Not only that, but that wouldn't explain how there have been non-binary genders in other cultures across the world for literally thousands of years: http://tvblogs.nationalgeographic.com/2012/09/28/when-gender-is-not-binary/
>I can't support it without more compelling evidence. Its a philosophical theory that has yet to be proven or universally accepted at best.
There is plenty of evidence that gender is socially constructed: it's as simple as going and looking at other cultures which have non-binary genders and have for a really long time.
But even when they do brain scans of people with gender dysphoria or homosexuals, they see that the structure of their brains align more similarly to the gender or sexuality that they identify with.
It's not some socially constructed, superficial title. Its a sexual/identity preference grounded in physically observable brain structures.
Funny thing about the article you linked. In every example of these cultural, non-binary situations throughout history, every single culture mentioned distinguished trans-people from the typical binary sexes. Every culture you mentioned made a distinction and a third gender, they didn't just weave transpeople into the already existing gender binary.
I guess what i'm saying is that there is no culture in your article that did not distinguish between cis and trans people.
>The idea that gender difference is socially constructed is a view present in many philosophical theories about gender.
that is straight off of wikipedia. You are taking a philosophical theory and pawning it off as fact.
>I guess what i'm saying is that there is no culture in your article that did not distinguish between cis and trans people.
Yes, but this shows that the ideas of what constitutes gender are not as simple and straightforward as 'penis = man. vagina = woman' which is all I was trying to say.
More Comments - Click Here
Every word in the dictionary is a socially defined one, so I don't get your point. It's how things become defined. Dictionaries don't pop into existance and then everyone starts talking that way, it's the other way around.
Gender is a biological construct.
There's a reason most scientists don't consider psychology to be a real science.
If gender is a biological construct, do you think there should there be more than two genders besides "man" and "woman"?
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XXmalesyndrome
Technically and scientifically they are still considered male. Presence of the Y chromosome always denotes "male" regardless of what else might be present.
Even if that's the case, you have to understand that sex and gender aren't the same thing.
You're picking nits where this discussion is concerned.
I think that the recognition that sex and gender are not the same thing is the crux of the discussion, to be honest.
That's the point. Sexual attraction has to do with just that, sex. Now they are female according to their gender, but their sex is more of a grey area depending on if they're pre-op or post-op.
I think sexual attraction has a lot more nuances than "just sex". Shit, some people are sexually attracted to cars or animals or other things that have literally nothing to do with sex at all.
What a shock, /u/rasterizedlines is here with another low-effort controversial opinion. Who could have possibly predicted this astonishing turn of events?
k
I'm not going to not share my opinion on the matter.
As far as I'm concerned my opinion is pretty much common sense and probably shared by more males than not.
>I'm not going to not share my opinion on the matter.
That would be fantastic, would you mind extending that philosophy to every other thing you feel an inexplicable burning need to tell us about yourself?
Seriously, I could write a bot that could replace your presence here seamlessly. Whatever the topic is, I can just have it say the most asininely contrarian possible thing about that topic, then complain about the downvotes in SRDD. Think of all the time you could save!
I'm sorry you disagree with me. Feel free to downvote me whenever you see me. I won't even be mad about it nor will I hold it against you.
See, you have your opinion and I have mine. They can be different.
Regardless, I'm not going to stop sharing my opinion when I feel like it.
You're misunderstanding something. Chromosomes are just containers for genes, and it doesn't matter what they're named. Your link talks about a condition where an X chromosome has copies of the male-making genes that normally reside on Y chromosomes.
>I’ve written here before that I believe most transgender people share the same basic feelings: gender dysphoria, transgender desire and gender fog. Whether you are transsexual, transvestite, drag queen, drag king, butch lesbian, genderqueer, non-binary or something else, you almost certainly experience one of those feelings, and probably all three. Whatever neurological claims you may have read about essential differences between one group and another, the fact remains that almost none of the trans people you will meet have been found to have a “female brain,” neurologically. People cross those subcategory boundaries all the time, and the only evidence currently accepted for membership is personal declaration.
http://transblog.grieve-smith.com/2014/04/30/the-essential-conflict-between-transitioners-and-non-transitioners/
The simple fact is heterosexuals aren't attracted to members of the same sex, and homosexuals aren't attracted to members of the opposite sex. Looks, while they play a role in ones attraction, are not the end all be all.
If you're a male I am not sexually attracted to you, because I'm heterosexual. Sorry. I don't care that you look like a female and call yourself a woman. I don't believe gender exists. there are plenty of transwomen who present as males and identify as "women", am I a transphobe if I refuse to have sex with them? They're "real women" too after all, right?
Transwomen aren't female, that's why heterosexual males don't want to have sex with them. It's because transwomen are males. It has nothing to do with whether or not they are "real women".
Yeah same has happened to me a few times on here.
People need to understand that you can completely accept someone as who they are, but at the same time not want to fuck them. It doesn't make us transphobes.
You can still consider them real women though. They don't stop becoming real women once you want to fuck them.
Well of course. When did I say you couldn't.
But do they start becoming real after surgery?
I don't understand the reasoning in having any preference between post op trans women and cis women.
Explain pls.
I'd like to have kids eventually. If my SO was sterile, while this wouldn't be a dealbreaker, it would certainly be a big strike. Knowing a potential SO was sterile/unable to procreate even before we started dating would likely lead to me not wanting to even start in on that relationship.
If it's not your preference, that's totally OK. You don't need to provide a reason.
>You don't need to provide a reason.
The user I replied to asked for an explanation as to why one would prefer a cis woman to a post-op trans woman.
Yeah, but that doesn't mean that you need to provide one.
Asking for "reasons" for things that don't require them can be a manipulation tactic. I think it's kinda shitty.
>Yeah, but that doesn't mean that you need to provide one.
I felt like doing so, so I did. It's not a big deal to me.
That's cool too.
Asking for reasons for things makes people think. There are plenty of people who have bigoted preferences. Opinions aren't holy.
> Opinions aren't holy.
When it comes to sexual preferences, at least, they are. Think about it: does a gay guy need to provide reasons why he wants to be with guys beyond, "he wants to be with guys?"
If you are attracted to someone until you find out something about them, you don't get to compare that "preference" to homosexuality. Gay men are not attracted to women until informed that they are not men.
> you don't get to compare that "preference"
I totally do and I just did.
More Comments - Click Here
The previous commentor literally asked for it, so...
> I don't understand the reasoning in having any preference
> Explain pls.
This is really easy stuff.
Preferences that are reasoned are going to be reasoned within the ideological framework of the person with the preference, not yours
2a. Most people do not subscribe to an ideology that distinguishes between gender and sex in the way that trans*/SJ activists do.
I'll leave the rest as an exercise to the reader.
See, that number three is the point. Making them talk about it can lead to changing #3.
We could talk about it until the cows come home, but gender and sex will remain the same thing for a lot of people indefinitely.
> gender and sex will remain the same thing for a lot of people indefinitely.
Yeah. I think that distinction is destined to remain gender-studies technical jargon, since it doesn't have much utility for the vast majority of people. And even if it does become widespread, I'd expect people would just switch to using sex-words, and gender-words would become much less used.
I think thought generally controls vocabulary, not the other way around.
> Yeah. I think that distinction is destined to remain gender-studies technical jargon, since it doesn't have much utility for the vast majority of people. And even if it does become widespread, I'd expect people would just switch to using sex-words, and gender-words would become much less used.
Couldn't have said it better myself!
Mm, yes, so we should just give up. Let people believe what they want, rather than what's true. Do you similarly respect white supremacists?
Definitive proof that can easily be conveyed to the average joe that confirms the discrepancy between gender and sex seemingly doesn't exist. Psychology (after all, that's what it comes down to, does it not?) is one of the most difficult sciences from which to extract definitive facts, yet SJWs just talk gender and sex differences like it's a pre-conceived fact. That doesn't sit well with a lot of people.
But it's more than psychology now. We have neuroscience and brain scans showing that trans people's brains look like their preferred gender's brains, not their chromosomal sex's brains. We have intersex people proving it isn't just black or white. There's the perfect example of Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome that proves that gender and phenotypical sex are tied to hormones, not chromosomes, and thus a post-op transwoman on hormones is indistinguishable from a ciswoman--especially since some ciswomen with AIS were born with XY chromosomes!
> But it's more than psychology now. We have neuroscience and brain scans showing that trans people's brains look like their preferred gender's brains, not their chromosomal sex's brains.
Source? Genuine curiosity.
And for the record, I'm not a person that needs convincing regardless. This is a topic I don't have any vested interest in. I just really don't like people being made feel bad for having a sexual preference.
Here's an article on brain scans. And another difference in the brains as well.
More Comments - Click Here
I think you're confused, we were talking about people's personal sexual preferences.
If you want to change those, ick.
^I ^just ^changed ^the ^numbering, ^so ^#3 ^is ^now ^#2a.
Honestly, it's the idea that they once had male junk. That's a HUGE turn off for me.
sorry. you're not allowed to have turn offs if they hurt the feels of transwomen.
You can have this preference without viewing to them as men under the scope of sex.
I fear you're conflating sex and gender here.
Seems that way.
And the silly homophobia of that doesn't strike you as ridiculous? It'd be like a straight woman being turned off of all men because they were female in utero.
I just... don't understand why someone would want to continue holding a bigoted preference, if it's a hard-and-fast rule and not an actual preference. You can change that shit.
You really don't understand? Or are you being sarcastic?
It's like liking fake tits versus real tits I'd imagine
Only cared about by total wankers? Sounds about right
Oh the nerve of someone to not like breast implants! Some people don't care about "surgical enhancements" while others find them repulsive. Just because someone doesn't like implants, that makes them a wanker? Wow.
people have preferences over stuff. I'm not sure why we're preference-sniping. There's plenty of people that don't care whether someone is cis or post-op.
SRD has really changed. /u/Mircy is in the negative for just offering a reason why someone may have a preference for cis-women and didn't really say anything controversial. I don't understand how someone can not understand people are not attracted to certain people. In SRS, a penis is basically split open and formed into a vagina. That alone can turn-off a lot of people. And many trans*women don't pass well either.
> And many trans*women who I notice (because they're obviously trans) don't pass well either.
FTFY.
The younger someone transitions, the better they pass. As trans stigma improves, more and more people are transitioning at age 16 - 20, and they look fabulous. (And I'm not at all jealous. Well, ok, maybe a little bit.)
> In SRS, a penis is basically split open and formed into a vagina. That alone can turn-off a lot of people.
Lots of surgery is gross, will you not have sex with a woman who has had an episiotomy or hysterectomy?
mircy is in the negative since her reasoning isn't sound. So yeah, SRD has changed, statements like that were more acceptable in SRD a year ago but I wouldn't whinge about it.
You want to know why I don't want to have sex with a trans woman.
It's because they used to be biologically male. That's a huge turn off to me. Even if they had the best plastic surgeon and sex-reassignment surgery in the world, if I knew I doubt I'd be able to get it up.
That's just me. It doesn't make me transphobic because in every other aspect I respect trans women. I just can't/don't want to fuck them.
> biologically male
The argument is that sex assignment based solely on genitals is in inadequate (at least in humans) for the same reasons XX/XY is inadequate because of XY females and XX males. Similarly, Trans*persons would quality as intersex because of how various hormonal balances affect sex differences in the brain during the fetal development.
Honestly I don't know enough about the subject of sex assignment to talk about it in an intelligent manner. I'm going with what I learned in college bio here and it's been awhile.
I do find the topic interesting so maybe a bit more research is needed.
Discussions like this get pretty philosophical as well since "what is sex?" can be a metaphysical question.
>Lots of surgery is gross, will you not have sex with a woman who has had an episiotomy or hysterectomy?
It's not because the surgery is gross but because it is basically a reconstructed penis. This is one of the reasons why some heterosexual men are turned off by trans*women. This may come off as harsh but so be it.
The visible part of the clitoris is basically the glans of a penis anyway. I don't doubt that men explain their unattraction in that way but that is a naive aesthetic judgement. Lots of people think trans* stuff is just like on South Park. Lots of people ignore that what they find attractive is affected by societal conventions.
No one is saying you're obligated to have sex with a transwoman. It's criticizing your arguments you're using to defend your position.
I think the problem isn't that they had a gross surgery, it's that their vagina is literally made of a penis, so if you have sex with them, you are rubbing your penis on their reformed penis. Whereas a hysterectomy is just removing some organs.
I'm not transphobic, but I think that is one angle to consider. For the record, I'd have no problem dating a transwoman.
her, shitlord
and yes, that is sound. Artificial versus natural is what some people care about. Telling them they're wrong for carrying those preferences makes you look like the asshole
Natural is a bit of a loaded term. Obviously trans* occurs in nature.
I'm explaining that their reasoning for their preferences aren't justified.
There are lots of guys on reddit that say they aren't attracted to black women and say they aren't racist it's just that black skin doesn't do it for them. I can criticize this, black women are portrayed as masculine in media. The dislike of black women is more likely a result of societal conventions.
Similarly people have a lot of misgivings about trans women.
I can explain myself more later, but I have an appointment right now.
I get what you mean, I'm just guessing on other's behalf. I personally don't care what bits or what gender someone is
Yeah, that's actually a good analogy.
Some men are totally turned off by fake tits (myself included). Even if they felt real if I knew they just wouldn't be the same as real tits.
Not trying to be belligerent but after sex reassignment surgery a trans woman's genitals are medically indistinguishable from a cis woman's. Even some gynecologist shave trouble telling them apart. So I understand feeling uncertain at the prospect of sec with a trans woman, but really I doubt you'd notice. *
Depending on how well the surgery went and how long they've been on HTR I suppose
It would not matter to me. Just knowing that she used to be a man and have a dick would be enough for me to be turned off to the whole experience.
Sorry, that's just the way I'm wired.
Reading this thread, I can't understand why people can't understand this perspective. Why is this so debatable?
It seems one side has the opinion that it is a matter of preference that you don't want to have sex with a former male...
and the other side completely ignores that argument and is upset that transgender people can't identify as their desired sex.
I don't see anyone arguing the contrary.
If you are transgender, I personally find that unattractive, and prefer not to have sex with you. That's my personal sexual preference. Don't treat it like I have an obligation to be attracted to a transgender female.
> Reading this thread, I can't understand why people can't understand this perspective. Why is this so debatable?
It's not. It's common sense but this is reddit where how someone feels is more important than common sense. Nevermind my feelings on the matter, as a straight cis black male, they don't matter.
What I don't get is that it's fine to downvote me for saying I don't want to have sex with a trans person but if someone did the same to a gay woman who said they didn't want to have sex with a dude there would be a witchhunt.
It's totally OK to browbeat a straight cis guy but don't you dare even look at a gay or trans person the wrong way. They can do whatever they want.
FYI, I actually agree with your right not to be attracted to people because I care about your seemingly irrational feelings. Treating this as one side being just rational common sense folk and the other as squeamish is good for nobody.
My view of it is this. Say you're attracted to a woman. Completely, see her naked, still attracted. A moment before sex she says "I'm trans." You're now no longer interested. That's an irrational bit of squeamishness to me.
Now that said, I respect it. But you're taking the wrong approach by saying "I r the rational one," and you'll probably regret that being the main argument for your side in another few decades if it's no longer considered common sense.
The words you want are "what happens in my bedroom is none of your business." They're good ones.
Because it isn't a matter of preference. Preference that is "hard-wired" is stuff that you can see. You literally cannot be "wired" to be turned off by a vagina by being told it was once a penis. That is entirely socialized, and that socialization comes from bigotry.
Imagine someone claiming they were "wired" to just not like Jewish people, and getting turned off by finding out someone was born Jewish, even though they never practice and don't identify as Jewish.
Preference is not just hard-wired. Things you have been socialized to find attractive are still preferences.
Sure, some of those preferences can be so unreasonable as to be bigoted, but I believe that being turned off by the idea of having sex with someone with an artificially created imitation-vagina is not one of those.
Well, I disagree. Can you give me an argument for why it wouldn't be bigoted? I can give a lot for why it would be, but I'm genuinely interested in hearing out the other side.
For clarity, the point I see us disagreeing on is, "Is it bigoted to not be attracted to a woman who was not born with a vagina if they have subsequently had surgery to obtain an artificial vagina?"
I believe that it is acceptable (non-bigoted) to have a preference for a woman with a 'natural' vagina over the alternative. I don't know whether this is something that is 'hard-wired' or learned, probably a bit of both, but I think in either case it isn't a preference that someone should be condemned for. There's definitely an emotional component to it that I find hard to evaluate, but I don't think it's based on disgust towards trans people.
I suppose you might rephrase the question as, "Is it bigoted to not be willing to be attracted to a woman who was not born with a vagina if they have subsequently had surgery to obtain an artificial vagina?"
In that case, I can see the bigot argument having a much better foundation.
The emotional component, I've found, in every argument I've had, is either disgust towards trans people, or deep homophobia.
Perhaps if it were an individual who was severely bothered by any and all plastic surgeries, even reconstructive ones, for whatever reason. But generally, it all boils down to "Ewwwwwww penis".
Not wanting to have sex with someone isn't bigotry. What's that word for pressuring someone into having sex when they don't want to? It's on the tip of my tongue. But seriously, you can be all for trans* rights without actually wanting to have sex with them. By the same token you can go out on weekends and have sex with gay prostitutes and dedicate your entire working life to oppressing them. Bigotry and sexual attraction are on completely different axes.
> Not trying to be belligerent but after sex reassignment surgery a trans woman's genitals are medically indistinguishable from a cis woman's.
I'm very skeptical of this. How often is radical plastic surgery noticeable by a layman?
Why wouldn't you have sex with them?
Why does the 'why' matter? When it comes to sex, 'no' should be the end of it.
Apparently personal preferences are totally fine and valid when ruling out fat chicks, short dudes, ugg-os, pretty boys, itty bitty titties, surgically enhanced titties, micropenises, ENORMOUS schlongs, skin color, hair color, and an infinite amount of other physical properties, yet somehow even the slightest implication that you’d rather not fuck a transperson makes you a bigot and, like, the enemy of an entire movement.
I just don’t understand it, I’m sure there’s whole bunch of people that wouldn’t want to fuck me because of some perceived physical imperfection (although, I am glorious to behold), but, like I don’t lose sleep over it. You gotta brush that dirt of your shoulder. There’s a whole world of wonderful people that would love to fuck you, but it shouldn’t be an obligation.
The idea that they once had male junk is a HUGE turn off for me.
They're biological males that identify as females.
Gender is hormonal, not chromosomal. All the hormonal disorders like Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome prove this. Gender and sex are usually tied to chromosomes because chromosomes generally dictate hormones, but they are not what actually define it.
Don't bring facts into this.
yep it's no surprise I have you tagged as transphobic.
How is what I said transphobic?
I don't want to have sex with someone that either has a penis or used to have a penis.
Fuck me, right?
not liking penises/any genitalia is fine. saying "trans women aren't real women when I think of sex" is transphobic. why does what your penis thinks matter?
> why does what your penis thinks matter?
It should be the only driving force when it comes to sex.
You're getting way too hung up on wording. Listening to you, you'd think I said I wanted to go out and beat up a trans women when all I really said was I don't want to have sex with them.
> why does what your penis thinks matter?
The 1950s called -- they want to use this line to go after gay guys.
> why does what your penis think matter?
...because that's literally one of the most important parts of sex?
> They are real women but for the purposes of sex I don't consider them women.
That right there makes you a transphobe according to, well, a heck of a lot of SJWs.
Well it kind of does but mostly because of the wording.
"They are real women but for the purposes of sex I don't consider them attractive"
Much better when expressed like that.
Which makes no sense to me, considering it's just a personal preference to not have sex with a trans person.
Stop not liking things that I think you shouldn't not like.
Good thing the opinions of SJWs don't matter.