Leader of extremist Nigerian group Boko Haram; "I abducted your girls...I will sell them on the market, by Allah." (time.com)

worldnews

123 ups - 41 downs = 82 votes

101 comments submitted at 13:49:23 on May 5, 2014 by HolySheesh

  • [-]
  • Volucris
  • 10 Points
  • 14:02:20, 5 May

Islam.

  • [-]
  • HalestormD
  • 8 Points
  • 17:51:49, 5 May

Not even once.

  • [-]
  • THREE_EDGY_FIVE_ME
  • -5 Points
  • 16:11:17, 5 May

Extremist muslims, with a political agenda.

Not simply "Islam". You ask your typical Muslim about this situation, they'll agree that it's atrocious.

  • [-]
  • iFootie
  • 9 Points
  • 17:06:45, 5 May

> You ask your ~~typical Muslim~~ any sane person about this situation, they'll agree that it's atrocious.

  • [-]
  • backtowriting
  • 6 Points
  • 17:49:13, 5 May

OK, but there are passages in Islamic texts which can be used to justify the taking of slave girls.

  • [-]
  • THREE_EDGY_FIVE_ME
  • 0 Points
  • 18:04:59, 5 May

So? You can take plenty of stuff in the Bible out of context and use it to justify all kinds of stuff.

Hell, I'm pretty sure there's something in the Mosaic laws which basically endorses the taking of female slaves in war for forced marriage.

Gotta look at it in context though. Does Christian doctrine uphold those laws? Nope. How, then, are you so sure about your understanding of Islamic doctrine?

  • [-]
  • backtowriting
  • 3 Points
  • 18:09:40, 5 May

Right - the only defense of Islam is that it's possible to find other ideologies which are just as bad. Not a great advertisement for that ideology, is it?

I'm not a Christian, but at least most Christians don't believe in their own religious texts these days. What worries me is that many Muslims actually believe this stuff.

  • [-]
  • armsofatree
  • 1 Points
  • 19:16:26, 5 May

> I'm not a Christian, but at least most Christians don't believe in their own religious texts these days. What worries me is that many Muslims actually believe this stuff.

I don't really know what to say about this. Most of what people consider extremist sects within Christianity take their religious texts literally. I'm also curious what figures you have to support that assertion.

The reason that argument holds, that he's bringing up is because you're only attacking Islam right now, which is indicative of some kind of prejudice. You've singled it out. If you were to say all religious ideology can be warped to extremist leanings, which is what I think whenever you have ANY kind of institutional religion, then that would be a far more reasonable assertion. But then you wouldn't be able to take pot shots at the religion you like the least, without including the others, so there's that.

  • [-]
  • THREE_EDGY_FIVE_ME
  • 0 Points
  • 18:20:11, 5 May

> most Christians don't believe in their own religious texts these days

Not true. Just that they interpret it differently. Biblical literalism is still a thing though.

> many muslims actually believe this stuff

A very small percentage of the overall muslim population though.

What's more, I think the issues with extremism and oppression that you see in certain Muslim countries, is due predominantly to economic development.

It's a basic fact, reflected today and throughout history, that societies in economically undeveloped regions, with low standards of living, will be more inclined to hold "traditional values", which includes strong religiousness, bigotry, etc. This isn't an Islamic phenomenon. You can observe it in a wide range of different Christian demographics as well.

Sub-saharan Africa is about as bad as it gets in terms of economics and living standards. Many places in the Middle East also suck in this regard. So it's not too surprising that such places have more problems related to extremist islam. Note that the developed Muslim countries are typically a lot more liberal and stuff.

The Arab Spring set things back quite a lot in many countries, which basically proves my point.

  • [-]
  • backtowriting
  • 2 Points
  • 18:28:47, 5 May

OK, but I'm criticizing the ideology of Islam here. It's not defending an ideology to say that many people don't follow it to the letter.

My point is that people who call themselves followers of Islam can fairly easily find justification for slavery (without having to twist the meanings of the words).

And unfortunately, there are a large numbers of Muslim conservatives who treat their texts as the literal truth to be obeyed. Yes, there are also Biblical literalists, but they're fairly far and few between in Western countries.

  • [-]
  • THREE_EDGY_FIVE_ME
  • 0 Points
  • 18:34:10, 5 May

> Yes, there are also Biblical literalists, but they're fairly far and few between in Western countries.

As I said, it comes fundamentally down to economic development and standards of living. Western countries typically have much better standards of living than the developing Middle Eastern and African ones.

I am absolutely certain that as predominantly Muslim develop economically, we will see a decline in Islamic extremism in those countries. Well, that's been evident for decades now anyway.

> OK, but I'm criticizing the ideology of Islam here

Aren't we both essentially in agreement that the ideology is not fixed, such is the nature of religion?

I'm saying that Islam is not uniquely bad, and that the prevalence of extremism is not due to inherent differences it has compared to, say, Christianity (a fundamentally similar religion with similar room for interpretation of brutality), but due to the circumstances of Muslim countries.

  • [-]
  • backtowriting
  • 2 Points
  • 18:36:11, 5 May

Ah the 'it's not religion, it's poverty' defense. Also see 'it's not religion, it's culture' or 'it's not religion, it's Western imperialism' or 'it's not religion, it's that bowl of cornflakes over there'. etc.

But what if it is religion? What if you can look at the religious texts and find verses which can credibly be used to justify slavery?

  • [-]
  • THREE_EDGY_FIVE_ME
  • 0 Points
  • 18:46:42, 5 May

> it's not religion, it's poverty' defense. Also see 'it's not religion, it's culture' or 'it's not religion, it's Western imperialism' or 'it's not religion, it's that bowl of cornflakes over there'. etc

No, this is not even remotely the same as any of those.

You can see the same pattern repeated all around the world, throughout human history.

Societies which are based in less developed economies, typically have more traditional values, i.e more bigotry, religion, etc. You can look at this within national subdivisions. You can see it within the Western bloc, hell you can see it between rural and urban areas.

Do not be so arrogant as to trivialize this fundamental fact of human civilisation to some piece of liberal apologia.

> What if you can look at the religious texts and find verses which can credibly be used to justify slavery?

Well there's [plenty of Bible verses](Deuteronomy 21:10-14) advocating slavery. God openly encourages the Israelites to take slaves. Deuteronomy 21: 10-14 is particularly brutal, it's essentially a legislative structure for war rape.

I'm not saying "Christianity supports slavery". I'm simply saying that both religions can be interpreted as supportive of brutality (although I'd like to see which verses in Islam support slavery).

I'm saying that the reason the issues related to "extreme interpretations" are more prevalent in Islam, is because a lot of muslim countries are economic shitholes and that's how human society operates.

  • [-]
  • solipcyst
  • 2 Points
  • 18:59:50, 5 May

Good luck developing economically when half of your population (women) have next to no rights.

  • [-]
  • IlikeJG
  • -1 Points
  • 17:53:43, 5 May

Are there? Have a citation?

  • [-]
  • backtowriting
  • 2 Points
  • 18:11:33, 5 May

You could do worse than look at Wikipedia:

>In Islamic law the topic of slavery is covered at great length.[1] The Quran (the holy book) and the hadith (the sayings of Muhammad) see slavery as an exceptional condition that can be entered into under certain limited circumstances.[2] Only children of slaves or non-Muslim prisoners of war could become slaves, never a freeborn Muslim.[3] They also consider manumission of a slave to be one of many meritorious deeds available for the expiation of sins.[4]

....

>The Arab slave trade was most active in West Asia, North Africa and Southeast Africa. In the early 20th century (post World War I) slavery was gradually outlawed and suppressed in Muslim lands, largely due to pressure exerted by Western nations such as Britain and France.[2] Saudi Arabia and Yemen, for example, only abolished slavery in 1962 under pressure from British colonists, Oman followed suit in 1970 and Mauritania in 1980. [11] However, slavery claiming the sanction of Islam is documented presently in the predominately Islamic countries of Chad, Mauritania, Niger, Mali and Sudan.[12][13]

The article also has a section on Slavery in the Quran.

Edit: And here are some verses from The Quran on slavery, including

>"O Prophet! Lo! We have made lawful unto thee thy wives unto whom thou hast paid their dowries, and those whom thy right hand possesseth of those whom Allah hath given thee as spoils of war."

And here's a page of verses from the Hadiths and Quran on slavery.

  • [-]
  • ithinkimlogical
  • 0 Points
  • 18:29:21, 5 May

There's no justification for going into a school and taking some girls and claiming they fit a description of war criminals. This guy is a lunatic and a cult leader, clear and simple.

If you want to have a larger discussion on Islam and slavery, then I suggest you do more research because you seem to know very little. Slavery was only allowed in the context of war, mind you this was war in medieval times where you didn't have places to put your prisoners. You kill them, let them go, or enslave them, that was the norm.

Islam clearly put freeing slaves as the most righteous act, and treating them with kindness if you didn't as the requirement. A slave under Islam eats what the owner eats, cannot be harmed without being free as retribution, always has the option to buy their freedom, etc etc. It isn't American or Western or any other type of "slavery" and isn't even relevant today as that type of slavery doesn't exist and isn't necessary in the context of war.

Anyway, as I said, if you want this discussion, do a little more reading up before entering it.

  • [-]
  • backtowriting
  • 2 Points
  • 18:32:33, 5 May

Right, you're telling me to shut up, because you don't like my opinions.

It's true, I'm not an expert on Islam, but I can read the verses pertaining to slavery which are reproduced on the internet.

Similarly, I'm not an expert in astrology and yet I can criticize astrology. Funny how that works.

  • [-]
  • ithinkimlogical
  • -2 Points
  • 18:06:54, 5 May

No, a cult leader who is insane and thinks God speaks to him. Not dissimilar to a cult lunatic who follows any other religion or belief to try and gain some type of legitimacy.

A quote on BBC from their psychopathic leader: "God instructed me to sell them, they are his properties and I will carry out his instructions."

  • [-]
  • timbit87
  • -1 Points
  • 18:32:20, 5 May

Reminds me of that Abraham guy