MensRights upvotes a possibly feminist (?) awareness campaign for male rape victims to their front page. Angered feminists take to the comments section. (self.SubredditDrama)
SubredditDrama
118 ups - 62 downs = 56 votes
A decent popcorn-fest, with MRAs angry at feminists for derailing a discussion on their boards about male rape victims, and feminists angry at MRAs for being generally opposed to feminism.
http://np.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/23rulx/27malesurvivorsofsexualassaultproject/cgzzw5y
http://np.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/23rulx/27malesurvivorsofsexualassaultproject/ch05cvj
EDIT: Spelling.
254 comments submitted at 21:32:32 on Apr 23, 2014 by PatriarchalOverlord
I don't know, there is pretty clearly a part of feminism that's hostile to men. The only thing that's up for debate is how large and influential said part is.
Feminists say it's insignificant, MRAs say it's the majority of the movement.
No, there's really not. Where is this "hostile to men" part of feminism?
Pls don't say SRS. SRS is a joke.
>Where is this "hostile to men" part of feminism?
How about the Feminist professor that think men in childcare are dangerous because they indoctrinate boys with masculinity?
How about the lecturer Mary Daly who "argued against sexual equality, believing that women ought to govern men" and refused to allow male studetns in her lectures?
How about Professor Janice Raymond? I'm sure you know her.
How about guardian journalist Julie Bindel? She openly hates men.
How about Professor Sheila Jeffreys? Homophobe, transphobe and all around misandrist.
You brushed aside RadFemHub but what about the fact one of the people there was a university lecturer?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-feminist (I prefer non-feminist). But I don't understand how you can think that feminism isn't hostile to men.
In fairness, I'm not sure feminists hold these people up as the grand "icons" of feminism. A few shitty people aren't indicative of an entire movement.
"The nuclear family must be destroyed... Whatever its ultimate meaning, the break-up of families now is an objectively revolutionary process." -- Linda Gordon
"I feel that 'man-hating' is an honorable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them." -- Robin Morgan, Ms. Magazine Editor.
"I haven't the faintest notion what possible revolutionary role white hetero- sexual men could fulfill, since they are the very embodiment of reactionary- vested-interest-power. But then, I have great difficulty examining what men in general could possibly do about all this. In addition to doing the shitwork that women have been doing for generations, possibly not exist? No, I really don't mean that. Yes, I really do." -- Robin Morgan
"I claim that rape exists any time sexual intercourse occurs when it has not been initiated by the woman, out of her own genuine affection and desire." -- Robin Morgan
"And let's put one lie to rest for all time: the lie that men are oppressed, too, by sexism--the lie that there can be such a thing as 'men's liberation groups.' Oppression is something that one group of people commits against another group, specifically because of a 'threatening' characteristic shared by the latter group--skin, color, sex or age, etc. The oppressors are indeed ****ED UP by being masters, but those masters are not OPPRESSED. Any master has the alternative of divesting himself of sexism or racism--the oppressed have no alternative--for they have no power but to fight. In the long run, Women's Liberation will of course free men--but in the short run it's going to cost men a lot of privilege, which no one gives up willingly or easily. Sexism is NOT the fault of women--kill your fathers, not your mothers". -- Robin Morgan
"To call a man an animal is to flatter him; he's a machine, a walking dildo." -- Valerie Solanas, Authoress of the SCUM Manifesto
"Life in this society being, at best, an utter bore and no aspect of society being at all relevant to women, there remains to civic-minded, responsible, thrill-seeking females only to overthrow the government, eliminate the money system, institute complete automation, and destroy the male sex." -- Valerie Solanas, SCUM founder (Society for Cutting Up Men.)
"The male is a domestic animal which, if treated with firmness...can be trained to do most things." -- Jilly Cooper, SCUM (Society For Cutting Up Men, started by Valerie Solanas)
"Since marriage constitutes slavery for women, it is clear that the women's movement must concentrate on attacking this institution. Freedom for women cannot be won without the abolition of marriage." -- Sheila Cronin, the leader of the feminist organization NOW
"I want to see a man beaten to a bloody pulp with a high-heel shoved in his mouth, like an apple in the mouth of a pig." -- Andrea Dworkin
"Marriage as an institution developed from rape as a practice." -- Andrea Dworkin
"Heterosexual intercourse is the pure, formalized expression of contempt for women's bodies." -- Andrea Dworkin
"Under patriarchy, every woman's son is her potential betrayer and also the inevitable rapist or exploiter of another woman." -- Andrea Dworkin
"To be rapeable, a position that is social, not biological, defines what a woman is." -- Andrea Dworkin
"Q: People think you are very hostile to men. A: I am." -- Andrea Dworkin
"The annihilation of a woman's personality, individuality, will, character, is prerequisite to male sexuality." -- Andrea Dworkin
"Men love death. In everything they make, they hollow out a central place for death, let its rancid smell contaminate every dimension of whatever still survives. Men especially love murder. In art they celebrate it, and in life they commit it. They embrace murder as if life without it would be devoid of passion, meaning, and action, as if murder were solace, stilling their sobs as they mourn the emptiness and alienation of their lives." -- Andrea Dworkin
"Men are rapists, batterers, plunderers, killers; these same men are religious prophets, poets, heroes, figures of romance, adventure, accomplishment, figures ennobled by tragedy and defeat. Men have claimed the earth, called it 'Her'. Men ruin Her. Men have airplanes, guns, bombs, poisonous gases, weapons so perverse and deadly that they defy any authentically human imagination." -- Andrea Dworkin, Pornography: Men Possessing Women
"On the Left, on the Right, in the Middle; Authors, statesmen, thieves; so-called humanists and self-declared fascists; the adventurous and the contemplative, in every realm of male expression and action, violence is experienced and articulated as love and freedom." -- Andrea Dworkin, Pornography: Men Possessing Women.
"The institution of sexual intercourse is anti-feminist" -- Ti-Grace Atkinson
"Rape is nothing more or less than a conscious process of intimidation by which all men keep all women in a state of fear" -- Susan Brownmiller; Authoress of Against Our Will p.6
"When a woman reaches orgasm with a man she is only collaborating with the patriarchal system, eroticizing her own oppression." -- Sheila Jeffrys
"All sex, even consensual sex between a married couple, is an act of violence perpetrated against a woman." -- Catherine MacKinnon
"You grow up with your father holding you down and covering your mouth so another man can make a horrible searing pain between your legs." -- Catherine MacKinnon (Prominent legal feminist scholar; University of Michigan, & Yale.)
"In a patriarchal society, all heterosexual intercourse is rape because women, as a group, are not strong enough to give meaningful consent." -- Catharine MacKinnon, quoted in Professing Feminism: Cautionary Tales from the Strange World of Women's Studies.
"The more famous and powerful I get the more power I have to hurt men." -- Sharon Stone; Actress
"Ninety-five percent of women's experiences are about being a victim. Or about being an underdog, or having to survive... women didn't go to Vietnam and blow things up. They are not Rambo." -- Jodie Foster; Actress - as quoted in The New York Times Magazine.
"The proportion of men must be reduced to and maintained at approximately 10% of the human race." -- Sally Miller Gearhart, in The Future - If There Is One - Is Female.
"And if the professional rapist is to be separated from the average dominant heterosexual (male), it may be mainly a quantitative difference." -- Susan Griffin, Rape: The All-American Crime.
"If life is to survive on this planet, there must be a decontamination of the Earth. I think this will be accompanied by an evolutionary process that will result in a drastic reduction of the population of males." --Mary Daly, former Professor at Boston College, 2001.
"Men who are unjustly accused of rape can sometimes gain from the experience." - Catherine Comins
"As long as some men use physical force to subjugate females, all men need not. The knowledge that some men do suffices to threaten all women. He can beat or kill the woman he claims to love; he can rape women...he can sexually molest his daughters... THE VAST MAJORITY OF MEN IN THE WORLD DO ONE OR MORE OF THE ABOVE." -- Marilyn French (her emphasis)
My feelings about men are the result of my experience. I have little sympathy for them. Like a Jew just released from Dachau, I watch the handsome young Nazi soldier fall writhing to the ground with a bullet in his stomach and I look briefly and walk on. I don't even need to shrug. I simply don't care. What he was, as a person, I mean, what his shames and yearnings were, simply don't matter." -- Marilyn French; The Woman's Room.
"All patriarchists exalt the home and family as sacred, demanding it remain inviolate from prying eyes. Men want privacy for their violations of women... All women learn in childhood that women as a sex are men's prey." -- Marilyn French
"All men are rapists and that's all they are" -- Marilyn French, Authoress; (later, advisoress to Al Gore's Presidential Campaign.)
"The media treat male assaults on women like rape, beating, and murder of wives and female lovers, or male incest with children, as individual aberrations...obscuring the fact that all male violence toward women is part of a concerted campaign." -- Marilyn French
"I believe that women have a capacity for understanding and compassion which man structurally does not have, does not have it because he cannot have it. He's just incapable of it." -- Barbara Jordan; Former Congresswoman.
"Probably the only place where a man can feel really secure is in a maximum security prison, except for the imminent threat of release." -- Germaine Greer.
"Man-hating is everywhere, but everywhere it is twisted and transformed, disguised, tranquilized, and qualified. It coexists, never peacefully, with the love, desire, respect, and need women also feel for men. Always man-hating is shadowed by its milder, more diplomatic and doubtful twin, ambivalence." -- Judith Levine; Authoress
"Men's sexuality is mean and violent, and men so powerful that they can 'reach WITHIN women to ****/construct us from the inside out.' Satan-like, men possess women, making their wicked fantasies and desires women's own. A woman who has sex with a man, therefore, does so against her will, 'even if she does not feel forced.' -- Judith Levine, (explicating comment profiling prevailing misandry.)
notice, some of these quotes are from very well known feminist authors, actresses, or otherwise in position of power or influence over others.
Sure, feminism isn't all bad. But it certainly has its bad characters.
Tl;dr
I know right, that's like a chapter and a half. Wow.
Yeah, there are quite a few people saying terrible things under the guise of feminism. It's a tragedy, because there are tons of feminists I know who have nothing against men; they are simply trying to identify and combat a masculinity-based power structure. For example, you given a fair few nice quotes from women saying terrible things about men, but I could retort with quotes from plenty of men in positions of actual power saying horrific things about women and rape:
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/02/28/lockman-worst-republican-rape-comment/
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/07/16/the-party-of-rape-culture-40-republican-rape-quotes-everyone-should-remember/
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-19334598
This is really what feminism is trying to combat: the fact that men holding these kinds of beliefs are legitimised enough to actually occupy positions of government. Cheers and thanks!
>This is really what feminism is trying to combat: the fact that men holding these kinds of beliefs are legitimised enough to actually occupy positions of government.
This is interesting to me, leaving aside the Galoway bit, do you think that the fact that they are men is linked to their attitudes, most of those are linked with pro life attitudes about abortion (and from a few of the social trends stuff from pew etc that I've seen) the difference between the genders in those who are against abortion is almost negligible, religion and political affiliation is much more of a predictor of somebody being anti abortion than gender. Also it seems like a kind of moral issue for most of those people linked to religion where abortion should be a crime because a foetus (etc) is alive. I think you could easily find lots of women who have similar attitudes and don't think them being men has much do do with them having the views they do.
I'm not sure if those quotes
The problem is these people are using abortion to justify/mitigate violent crimes against women - it's creating a system that's not particularly accommodating to women. By using their anti-abortion stance to extenuate rape, they are by definition working against women and the work feminists have been trying to do for decades
I think it's the other way around, that 'ways of shutting it down' guy in particular wasn't concerned with rape but with abortion, which he wants to make illegal. He was asked about abortion in the case of somebody being raped and (imo) had to find a way that abortion could still be illegal in those cases, so he came up with that crazy stuff.
You seemed to imply that the fact that they were men had something to do with it (even when some of them were women), I don't think this is true and (if you were doing this) seems to be an example of treating unpleasant opinions of some men as being linked to their maleness rather than their anti abortion or socially conservative views.
Just so you know, most of those quotes are either totally twisted from context (some are from scifi novels, said by characters, by authors who just happen to be feminists), misattributed, or straight made up.
Wouldn't surprise me. Cheers :)
They aren't, but people are quick to point out the flaws of MRA while ignoring the flaws of feminism.
Reasons like this are why egalitarianism is the future.
It is still important to examine them as feminists. If for no other reason then to examine the logic they employ in their use of feminist ideology. Really, to see where it can be taken even if you personally would never take it there. Its just like any other ideology.
Oh definitely. I would say all movements and ideologies need examining. That's what it means to truly believe in a cause. It's just... when I see the Men's Rights movement, the kind of responses and anger it generates, the kind of community it fosters...it kind of depresses me. I see potential for unity, but in reality it's only people yelling at one another.
I think what generally happens is that the movement's small, disconnected nature insulates it. You get a bunch of people talking to each other who are (both legitimately and illegitimately) angry. So, when somebody steps in and tries to start a dialogue, they get shot down and pushed out.
Its a nesting doll of discontent.
Those are all TERF transphobes. SRS and most feminists hate them.
You managed to find 5 women in 4 different countries, one of whom is already dead . . . and this is a huge trend in feminism?
Btw, no, I don't know much about any of those women. None of them are a very big deal in modern feminism.
I'm not sure if it's the same copypasta that is always presented in these discussions but if it is then note that a number of the quotes are taken from science fiction novels that happen to be authored by feminists.
> I'm not sure if it's the same copypasta that is always presented in these discussions but if it is then note that a number of the quotes are taken from science fiction novels that happen to be authored by feminists.
I am not surprised by that. People also accuse Dworkin of various things, forgetting that those were said by fictional characters. She did genuinely hold some bad ideas (like transphobia) but for other things she should be done justice.
I don't live in the USA so I'm not really in touch with what happens there, but there was a case of a student who was accused of rape and declared innocent in a court, but he was still expelled because of some university's rules that were linked to feminism?
Universities are not required to meet criminal court standards to expel students. I have no idea what case you're talking about, but universities in the US are required to comply with a federal law (that was supported by feminists) that requires the campus be safe and foster an appropriate learning environment for both men and women. So universities have rules about expelling students who rape/harass/stalk/assault others.
Tbh, it's actually a pretty big clusterfuck, because universify staffs are really not equipped to handle those cases, enforcement ends up inconsistent and arbitrary, uuuuuuugggggghhhhhh. Tons of feminists hate the whole system and there's lots of pressure to change it.
Anyway, this guy probably didn't get found guilty in criminal court but his university found he had violated their code of conduct or used a lower standard of proof than criminal courts do.
Kinda like how you can be expelled from private school for carrying an amount of drugs you wouldn't be charged by cops for.
Well, that system of kangaroo courts sounds absolutely horrible. And I'm not saying that all feminists are bad, because there are awesome feminists, but not all feminists are awesome. Some of them do support sexist and unfair stuff.
I found an article about it http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2014/02/12/disagreement-campus-judicial-systems
What's scary is that, according to the article, Amanda Childress, who seems to hold a position of power at Dartmouth College, is in favour of expelling people based on allegations. ("Why could we not expel a student based on an allegation?") I have no idea if she's a feminist or not, but the fact that people like her are actually influential is frightening.
The Dworkin fanatics are unbelievably vocal, however.
> huge trend
except he already said
>The only thing that's up for debate is how large and influential said part is.
without actually proposing a "size" themselves
Really, any kind of trend. 5 people from a movement of millions - particularly 5 people with uncommon beliefs that are rejected by the vast majority of the movement - do not constitute a trend or any real part of said movement.
That's like claiming that US Republicans are clearly a movement that involves terrorists and the only thing that's up for debate is how large and influential this terrorist part is. Because, you see, people who commit clinic bombings and kill abortion providers vote Republican. (And I guess Democrats are terrorists, too, cause those environmental activists do get militant sometimes . . . )
>5 people from a movement of millions
proof that 5 exist is the evidence itself that it merely exists, it does not say 100% or 0%. don't dismiss them because they aren't enough because there may be more that would fall into that group, but are unknown to be
>only thing that's up for debate is how large and influential this terrorist part is.
when discussing the terroristic qualities of the republican movement, then yes. it is.
You didn't ask for a huge trend in feminism, if you ask for that I'd have said writing things on signs. And finding 5 women in 4 different countries only amplifies my point?
>None of them are a very big deal in modern feminism.
Those people built modern feminism. They literally had or have paid jobs in academic institutions for many years to teach people about gender and feminism.
You asked for hostility to men in feminism and I provided it. At every level of feminism you will find misandrists. The kind who say "I hate men, but I have a good excuse".
>You didn't ask for a huge trend in feminism
Doesn't have to be huge, but I asked for a part of feminism. Which would be something more like a commonly-accepted belief, a sizable segment, or a notable trend. Not 5 random people.
>Those people built modern feminism.
Only Mary Daly is even recognized as a prominent second wave feminist in the US. Random German and Australian professors, I've literally never heard of. I've heard of the organization Janice Raymond works with, but primarily as a target of sex-positive feminist criticism. Sex-positivism is now among the dominant beliefs in feminism as a whole. Janice Raymond and CATW are really not representative.
>At every level of feminism you will find misandrists. The kind who say "I hate men, but I have a good excuse".
Yeah, you've clearly never met a feminist IRL or been to a pro-choice march or anything. That's simply not true in any way.
They're not random people. I'm sure if you know what the word "Patriarchy" means you know what the word "Hierarchy" means. Academics and researchers have the power to guide studies and laws to fruition, tumblr accounts don't.
>Sex-positivism is now among the dominant beliefs in feminism as a whole.
This is clearly snowballing, but ok. Please do take a breath of good faith and I will too.
By virtue of saying "among the dominant beliefs" you seem to be willfully answering your own question about what part of feminism is hostile to men (as male sexual agency take the brunt of the criticism).
The line between sex positivism and sex negativism is very blurred, I rarely read strong philosophical statements about it apart from BDSM practioners or pornographers. For example, take UKFeminista's campaign to rid corner shops in the of "Lad Mags". Whether that falls under "sex positive" or "sex negative" is no simple matter.
When I said "you will find misandrists" what I meant is that there is always someone who takes it too far and steps into misandry. The misandric part of feminism isn't a sect, it's a vertical slice. Personally I think that's just natural. Feminist theory is a massive framework largely based upon the victimization of women, by men and masculinity. It's going to attract people who want to take it as far as they can. And structurally that is hostility towards men.
Their name is a reference to sperm-jacking, because they think that shit is funny. You're wasting your time.
Look at their account, under the list of their modded subreddits. All you need to know. This person devotes their entire day every day to reddit gender wars.
Hissssssssssssssssssssssssss
Yeahhhhhh, no. Seriously, please read an actual feminist text before you keep trying to talk about it. You've can't find strong statements on sex positivity and sex negativity from feminists - do you realize how ignorant that demonstrates you to be on the subject? It's like debating about existentialism and admitting you've never actually read any existentialist philosophy, just sparknotes of some Sartre. The line between sex positive and sex negative is really not blurry, they just both dislike coercive or abusive sexual behavior. Lad mags are not representative of male sexuality, they're representative of unhealthy sexuality. Of course sex positive feminists would be against them.
>You've can't find strong statements on sex positivity and sex negativity from feminists - do you realize how ignorant that demonstrates you to be on the subject?
My own views on the subject is that feminism as a movement does not have a cohesive enough separation, if the two can even be cleanly separated. I'm trying to approach it from how feminists present it as you are the one making claim about it. You brought it up, to separate it as a "dominant belief" apart from other feminist sects.
>The line between sex positive and sex negative is really not blurry
Then it should be really not difficult for you to explain what you believe the difference is. Don't waste screeds of text just to use a "It's not my job to educate you" escape hatch when the important part comes.
>Lad mags are not representative of male sexuality, they're representative of unhealthy sexuality.
I didn't present it as male sexuality, although I would say enjoying looking at big tits and wide hips is both representative of male sexuality and quite healthy.
And yet again to answer your question, the onslaught of negative and critical statements about men's sexuality is exceedingly hostile to men. The tomes of crushing and acerbic criticism towers over the meek support for the value of male sexuality. (edit: To be clear, we are talking about a whole campaign to rid women of the scourge of UK men's "unhealthy sexuality" and none to give them any bodily value).
Sex positive: Consensual sex is always awesome, go forth and fuck safely and enthusiastically, yayyyyyy!
Sex negative: Patriarchal culture impacts women's ability to consent and we shouldn't view sex as always necessary good and rewarding, and in fact sexual dynamics may be a significant way in which women's lower social status is maintained.
Basic, one sentence descriptions. Not hard.
>And yet again to answer your question, the onslaught of negative and critical statements about men's sexuality is exceedingly hostile to men.
What are you talking about? You brought up lad mags, so I assumed you were claiming they represent male sexuality. Now you say they aren't. So what aspects of male sexuality are being criticized? Where does this happen?
>To be clear, we are talking about a whole campaign to rid women of the scourge of UK men's "unhealthy sexuality" and none to give them any bodily value
I thought we were talking about a campaign against lad mags? Which you just said don't represent male sexuality.
But they aren't true feminists. Only I get to tell you what a feminist is! /s
Can you say that a person is moral if they say/do things at odds with morality?
Can you say a person is a scientist if they hold values that run counter to the scientific method and related principles?
The problem is that anyone can march under the banner. Most moderate Christians wouldn't consider the Phelps' to be "real" Christians, or at least not representative of the religion.
And the vast majority of feminists don't consider the, what, 1000 total people who went to RadFemHub to be representative or true feminists. What's your point?
Who is speaking for the vast majority of feminists? Do the vast majority of feminists actively denounce radicalism?
The vast majority of feminists don't even know the "radicals" MRAs love to point to even exist, because they are literally that insignificant IRL.
From another comment:
Cathy Brennan, RadFemHub, and FemiTheist are all seriously fringe people/groups that you literally only even know exist if you spend a ton of time online. They don't even register when you look at feminists and feminist groups IRL - groups like Planned Parenthood, RAINN, all the women's shelters in every city, Emily's List, people like Joe Biden, Melissa Harris-Perry, Rachel Maddow, bell hooks (and these are very few examples I came up with in a few seconds) - those are the groups and people who are actually doing feminist work IRL.
You seriously want to take all that and be like "OMG, but we need to measure that against these three weird websites"? That's like claiming we need to measure all of Christianity against the Westboro Baptist Church to decide whether the WBC is a major influence or not.
I'll be honest. I did a bunch of feminism study in the 1990s. I hang out with feminists and radicals a lot, and have done for 15 years. In those contexts, transphobia is the enemy, and Radfems are not a thing. I am currently involved in work around trans communities in my city, and feminist groups are allies.
The only place I run across radfems (and other forms of transphobic feminism) is on-line, particularly in reddit. The whole radfem movement could not be more fringe to feminist movements.
The fact that it's labelled "radical feminism" and not "feminism" implies that there is an attempted separation.
What about Jezebel? They're mainstream and they're assholes.
How about the jokesters who follow Cathy Brenan, and the members of the now-defunct RadFemHub? What about the Femitheist, who advocated to reduce the male population to 10% of what it currently is, and also for and "International Castration Day"?
Cathy Brennan, RadFemHub, and FemiTheist are all seriously fringe people/groups that you literally only even know exist if you spend a ton of time online. They don't even register when you look at feminists and feminist groups IRL - groups like Planned Parenthood, RAINN, all the women's shelters in every city, Emily's List, people like Joe Biden, Melissa Harris-Perry, Rachel Maddow, bell hooks (and these are very few examples I came up with in a few seconds) - those are the groups and people who are actually doing feminist work IRL.
You seriously want to take all that and be like "OMG, but we need to measure that against these three weird websites"? That's like claiming we need to measure all of Christianity against the Westboro Baptist Church to decide whether the WBC is a major influence or not.
thats the problem on reddit
dudes cite shit like SRS or TUMBLR or weird ass bloggers and that is what they think of when they think of feminism
It's not even that because SRS and Tumblr are both hugely opposed to Brennan and Radfemhub
oh whatever, i dont take any of that all too seriously :-P
At the same time, what's your first thought when people think oif MRA's? Is it the reddit sub?
And even then, the feel I get from feminism is that it's changing into something else. Ideas that have been called third and fourth wave.
/r/MensRights is the largest group of MRAs, and they're pretty mild when compared to A Voice for Men- the second largest group. Can you point me to the larger group?
MRA's i immediately think of reddit, since ive only ever even heard of them on reddit
i mean i studied feminism at university, it being a real thing and all
MR has been around for quit a while actually, with warren Farrel arguably being the founder.
who?
Yeah the problem is the people having the wrong impression, not the groups giving the wrong impression.
Yeah, you never see the real feminists, who hang out in places like Jezebel, Feministing, Shakesville, LiveJournal, etc who are totally fair to men all the time. Wait...
I've asked this before, and I'll ask it again: please tell me where I can find these sane feminists totally open to mens issues online. Before you say "oh well they are not online" note that having the entirety of a movement's presence dominated by assholes is a problem.
they are in universities and in office
> Before you say "oh well they are not online" note that having the entirety of a movement's presence dominated by assholes is a problem.
huh?
And the only reason anyone knows about the fringe groups is precisely because they're nuts.
I don't know man, this has happened multiple times, really doesn't welcome men to feminism with open arms...
That's not to say feminism in general is bad, but you can't deny how hostile portions of the movement have become.
So the same group of feminists at the same school acting childish is indicative of hostile elements within feminism... even though, however childish the actions were, protesting Warren Farell isn't really "not welcoming men". It's not welcoming of a particular strain of rhetoric that many believe to be misogynist.
But then we have to look at the hostile element within the MRM that has inundated several women with rape and death threats.
There are fringes in every movement. I think I'll take a fire alarm over death threats, though.
Protesting a noted pedopologist who claims men are actually oppressed by women through powers of sexiness is not the same thing as being hostile to men as a whole.
Gotta love how SRS refers to Warren as a misogynyst, guess they didn't know he was one of the most prominent feminists some years ago, but I guess that trying to help men means you're oppressing women, right?
Taking quotes from his books without context really proves nothing.
I'm pretty sure that, if anything, farrel is a misandrist. The idea that men are utterly powerless when faced with a vagina is insulting at best
> guess they didn't know he was one of the most prominent feminists some years ago
Literally every time I've seen SRS discuss Farrell, they acknowledge that he used to be a feminist.
>Taking quotes from his books without context really proves nothing.
Farrell did an AMA on reddit last year where he was given multiple opportunities to explain his permissive statements regarding rape and incest and he dodged every last one of them. He's a rape and incest apologist, there is simply no getting around it.
I don't understand why you included this particular link. He addresses incest directly in it.
> i have always been opposed to incest, and still am, but i was trying to be a good researcher and ask people about their experience without the bias of assuming it was negative or positive
Except that he was biased in favor of the perpetrator, and he refuses to answer questions pointing that out. Do you really think that because he claims to be opposed to incest, that he actually must be? His work speaks for itself.
Do 15 different posts include enough context for you?
They see him as part of a regressive hate movement, and are following the anti-fascist tactic of No-Platform.
Pointing out the TERF fringes like Brenan is in no way representative of feminism. There is a reason so many feminists loath TERFs like her. You're picking out a particular extreme within a movement and trying to say it's everyone.
TERFs also loath third wave feminists, which is much of what you will encounter now a days. RationalWiki talks about it a bit.
Trying to say TERFs represent feminism is like saying Men Going Their Own Way or TRPers represent all of Men's Rights.
Edit: Wanted to pull out the salient quote about TERFs:
"...this particular group of radfems have been roundly rejected by nearly every demographic they claim to represent, including, but not limited to, women of color, sex workers, kinksters, most male allies, and, at long last, most every feminist who's come after them. It's also very likely that they deeply resent that the third-wavers have taken their best ideas — understanding and fighting patriarchal structures and rape culture, the fight for reproductive rights and women's health care — and carried them forward, while leaving the dogmatism and one-size-fits-all theorizing behind, rendering the majority of them irrelevant."
SRS, and most feminists hate Cathy Brenan. She is ultra transphobic and actually aligns herself with regressive conservative groups to shit on trans* people.
Well, most of the hateful people who berated the people at college campuses who try to attend seminars that discuss men's issues, such as male suicide rates, identified as "feminist".
You mean people attending lectures by noted pedopologist and claimer that women truly oppress men through our powers of sexiness, Warren Farrel?
From what I understand a recent lecture by a woman on the issue of men's rights, I can't remember her name but I could look it up if you want, was given the same fire alarm treatment. It seems like they really don't want them talking.
College kids protest speakers they don't like all the damn time. And opposition to a speaker or specific ideas is not hostility to men in general.
http://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/23ij7t/forthethirdtimeintwoyearsfeministsat_a/cgxd6h1?context=3
"Warren Farrell is literally Hitler because he's a misoggy-pedo-incesto-rape-a-shitlord but our extended cousins protesting/abusing him and other like-minded academics are people that don't deserve a mention for their horrific behavior."
... I don't know what's worse. The stuff you copypaste, or the fact that it's very possible the only reason you copypaste and link such backwards, misogynistic shit is for fake internet points and e-notrealgold.
"You're a misogynist because you say stuff that's true that SRS followers like myself can't refute with non-STEM logic."
Really, are you a long-con troll that's inadvertantly raked in phenomenal popularity, or did you seriously, unironically use the phrase "non-STEM logic" as an attempted insult? Either way I'm laughing my ass off over here.
they're pretty funny, they pander REALLY hard to the defaults by playing up the SRS conspiracies
the funny thing is they actually believe it all
No, that's not what I mean. The last lecture they pulled the fire alarms on the other day weren't even Warren Farrel, who you just totally lied about, btw. When you have to lie to get people on your side, your side must suck pretty badly.
Are you claiming Warren Farrel is not on record claiming incest is secretly healthy, and only society freaking out about it gives child victims harmful experiences? Or that The Myth of Male Power, which he just recently re-released, is not about the claim that men are actually controlled by women with sex?
And pulling fire alarms is childish, but it does not nearly qualify as violent or hateful behavior.
Opposition to specific speakers and specific ideas is still not "hostility to men".
Yes. I'm saying you are exaggerating his words. I read his AMA and heard his exact words. I don't need you to re-characterize what he said in a sensationalist and hyperbolic manner.
Warren Farrell on why he wanted to research incest:
>“First, because millions of people who are now refraining from touching, holding, and genitally caressing their children, when that is really a part of a caring, loving expression, are repressing the sexuality of a lot of children and themselves. Maybe this needs repressing, and maybe it doesn’t. My book should at least begin the exploration.”
I don't need to exaggerate shit.
> i have always been opposed to incest, and still am, but i was trying to be a good researcher and ask people about their experience without the bias of assuming it was negative or positive
From his AMA, linked above. He outright says he's opposed to incest.
Which I'd believe if his research wasn't hugely and deliberately biased to make incest look good.
Can you proved specific examples of how it's biased?
For one thing, he put out ads specifically looking only for people who had positive incest experiences. So that's not gonna give you any kind of representative sample.
lol
That's a bunch of mealy-mouthed bullshit that amounts to, "So the facts say incest is usually good, but I was silenced by society who doesn't understand!"
He was specifically looking for people with positive experiences with incest, and based his conclusions off his interviews with those people. That's not even a random sample of people who've experienced incest. And yet people abused by their parents - particularly women - still only reported negative experiences, so he invented a reason for that, because it's apparently implausible that parents sexually a using their kids is just really fucking likely to be damaging!
Note he doesn't actually say he was wrong about anything in that response.
> Note he doesn't actually say he was wrong about anything in that response.
Because he wasn't.
Yeah, sure, girls are only upset when their fathers rape or molest them because they're so vulnerable to social pressure about it.
Everyone chill. Big Red is a really nice person IRL.
You mean Warren Farrel, the guy who asked the hate site A Voice for Men to help pick a sexy women for the cover of his book to show how men are powerless?
> No, there's really not. Where is this "hostile to men" part of feminism?
How about this?
> > “I feel that ‘man-hating’ is an honorable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them.”
–Robin Morgan
And in case anybody is wondering if Robin Morgan's views can be considered in any way representative of feminism:
> > Since the early 1960s she has been a key radical feminist member of the American Women's Movement, and a leader in the international feminist movement. Her 1970 anthology Sisterhood Is Powerful has been widely credited with helping to start the second wave feminist movement in the US, and was cited by the New York Public Library as "One of the 100 most influential Books of the 20th Century,"
til radical feminism = all feminism.
> > > Where is this "hostile to men" part of feminism?
> > Right over here, see? It's actually something that one of the most prominent feminists that played a defining role in the movement was proud to tell people. Here's what she said, and here's her credentials so you can't call her a straw feminist or a nobody.
> But that's not all feminism!
Exactly what sort of feminist do I have to quote to prove the point that there is a side of feminism that is hostile to men, and why doesn't Robin Morgan qualify? And why does everybody think she was an influential feminist right up until the point where she says something embarrassing?
The original claim was:
> there is pretty clearly a part of feminism that's hostile to men.
The response was:
> No, there's really not.
The original claim was correct and the response was false.
It's called moving the goal posts. Once you do what they originally ask, they demand something else. It's also doublespeak to claim the "majority" of a group disagrees with the radidal members then go around saying nobody speaks for the group as everyone is an individual. This effectively makes it impossible to criticise the modern "movement" since anything bad is called fringe and anything good "the majority" agree with. Somehow once you call yourself a feminist, you automatically gain the ability to say what the majority of feminists believe which just so happens is everything you also believe.
Amanda Marcotte thinks so.
edit: Stand by this comment 100%. See here.
You realise that article says the exact opposite of what you're implying it does, right?
Not at all, I'm implying exact what she wrote. See here.
No, you're misunderstanding her.
"Nuh uh!" is not a rebuttal.
It wasn't meant to be. I wasn't going to waste time explaining your misconception, because to be brutally honest you don't sound particularly bright. Do you actually think that Amanda Marcotte thinks that feminism hasn't changed at all since the 70s? You really think she thinks that? I'm sorry, you're just not very smart.
I hope you read the actual article.
>I realize there are anti-trans, anti-sex feminists out there who call themselves radical feminists, but I, simply put, don’t agree. What’s radical about them? They are to the right of the mainstream feminist movement.
I certainly did. How does that quote change anything? As she says:
>"In other words, what was once “radical” feminism is now mainstream feminism."
And Robin Morgan certainly fits her definition.
>Don’t get me wrong! There was. In the 60s and 70s, there were radical feminists who were distinguishing themselves from liberal feminists.
Her description of radical feminists, yes.
That link is saying that the 60's mainstream feminists are now trying to change the culture, too; a goal that was once only seeked by radical feminists? That's what she means when she says mainstream feminism disappeared?
I just want to make sure I'm not going crazy.
No more quote mining:
>There is no such thing as a “radical feminist” anymore.
>Don’t get me wrong! There was. In the 60s and 70s, there were radical feminists who were distinguishing themselves from liberal feminists. Radical feminists agreed with liberal feminists that we should change the laws to recognize women’s equality, but they also believed that we needed to change the culture. It was not enough to pass the ERA or legalize abortion, they believed, but we should also talk about cultural issues, such as misogyny, objectification, rape, and domestic violence.
>In other words, what was once “radical” feminism is now mainstream feminism.
>I realize there are anti-trans, anti-sex feminists out there who call themselves radical feminists, but I, simply put, don’t agree. What’s radical about them? They are to the right of the mainstream feminist movement. They often have more in common with the conservatives decrying mainstream feminism as “radical” than they do the original radical feminists who had consciousness-raising groups and abortion speak outs and who started Ms Magazine.
Emphasis mine. She's literally saying that what was once radical feminism is now just feminism, and specifically aludes to Robin Morgan.
> second wave feminist
These are the key words there.
Second wave feminism certainly did a lot of good (don't get me wrong), but it had some pretty major flaws. Notable among those was an anti-sex (and, in extreme cases, anti-men) bent and a tendency to ignore the needs of women of color, generalizing the rich white woman's experience as the woman's experience. Indeed, rebellion against anti-sex/anti-porn thing was what brought about third-wave feminism in the '90s.
Most feminists today would identify as third-wave feminists (especially young feminists, who tend to be of the sex-positive and intersectional varieties). Morgan is no longer representative of feminism at large; representative of a part of the RadFem community, sure, but not feminism as a whole.
And would, additionally, need to be put in the context of the time it was written, where it was perfectly legal for a husband to rape his wife in all 50 states
MRA always quote feminists from the 1960s and earlier (even back to the 19th century). It's like people saying whites are oppressed because of some shitty thing the Black Panthers said in the 60s, or even back during Reconstruction.
OMG "misandry". XD
But that quote:
>“I feel that ‘man-hating’ is an honorable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them.”
Is a statement of the righteousness of political resistance. When the disempowered seek equality, they are frequently cast as being cruel to those better off (see also: white people freaking out about affirmative action, claims that white men are the real oppressed people, etc). It's a purposefully hyperbolic statement that that should not stop someone, even embracing it.
yes, and nazis as well thought they had good reasons to hate the jews.
"the resistance" lol. feminism isn't the resistance, feminism is the establishment.
Lol yeah, that's why feminism totally controls politics and business - abortion is totally easy to get, parental leave is paid and a year long, half of politicians are women, half of Hollywood movie protagonists are women, all rapes are reported to the police . . .
Yes, clearly we live under feminist rule.
How is thinking hatred of men as honourable anything but misandry?
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No, it's not about male rape, it's about the very specific and irrational fear MRA/Red Pill types have that women will steal their used condoms to get pregnant.
That's exclusively how the term is used. Except for when MRAs or Red Pillers want to score a cheap point against someone mocking this irrational fear, by claiming "spermjack" means male rape. Except for how no one uses it to mean that.
Nice try, but im never without my little bottle of 357 Mad Dog.
Come at me bro
Spermjackalope sitting in the audience applauding
Oh my, that entire video... I pity humanity
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Caught me!
Kill all men. Hisssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
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Reddit is not the best lens into feminism. The part of feminism that is hostile to men is really really small in real life and only exists on the internet.
Is there a good online lens into feminism(or any political group)?
Generally, the academic texts that ground that group's ideals are the best way to understand the heart of the matter. If you want to understand US Democrats, read Rawls and Keynes. If you want to understand US Republicans, go for John Stuart Mill and Hayek. US Libertarian Party? Read Nozick. Communists and socialists? Marx, Foucault, Baudrillard.
To understand feminism, I'd highly suggest bell hooks. Or start real old-school: Mary Wollstonecraft.
Misandry doesnt real shitlord.
yeah its a silly word