Teenage girl lies to her dad that her boyfriend was an intruder. Dad kills boyfriend. Is she culpable? I reddit, you decide! (np.reddit.com)
SubredditDrama
65 ups - 37 downs = 28 votes
124 comments submitted at 06:45:37 on Apr 3, 2014 by PhysicsIsMyMistress
Doesn't anyone else feel like the father's story is a little to convenient? Then again, maybe it doesn't matter - It seems fairly easy to kill someone in Texas because of the state's castle doctrine. Most people would agree that you have the right to defend yourself if you feel you are in danger, but the justification seems fairly slim in Texas.
9 times out of 10 the castle doctrine is a good thing. It gives you the ability to defend yourself in your own home without fear of legal reprisal, given that you are in immedate danger. You can argue the semantics of "immediate danger" but generally I'd consider an unknown intruder in your house to fit the definition, even if that intruder didn't have a visible weapon. After all, they could use lots of items in your own home against you if you wanted.
Also, Texas isn't the only state with a castle doctrine.
Really? I mean I guess I can see it but you seem really comfortable with ending a human life. You might go "Oh it has no value to me" but they're still a human being whether you like it or not.
What's with this part of reddit where some if the comments take a weird moral stance of "a thief forfeits their life by entering my house?" No negotiation or whatever. I dunno, it feels a little too comfortable with murder for my taste.
I live in a state with the Castle Doctrine and I have firearms in my house and I know how to use them.
With that said, I've run over the scenario multiple times in my own head. While I realize that isn't a one-all-end-all scenario buster I will say that if someone comes through a door and the alarm is going off and my dogs are doing nuts -or- they come through double-paned windows with metal grilles in them and my dogs going nuts that pretty much eliminates most forms of petty theft or other innocuous break-ins.
If someone is in my house in spite of the surrounding dissuasion to stay in my house and I identify that I'm armed and that police are on the way and they make an aggressive move, well, I'd honestly have little problem enacting the castle doctrine. I would make efforts, however, to not shoot to kill (i.e. an abdominal or limb shot if I feel I can comfortably make that shot) but shoot to debilitate them until police arrive.
In this scenario it sounds like the father did everything right up until he had an itchy trigger finger. From what I understand the younger brother of the girl said goodnight to her and saw the guy's feet under her bed. So he told the dad who then went in there, girl said she didn't know him (come on dad, you catch your 16yo daughter with a guy in her room, of course she'll try to lie) and then the guy argues with the dad and makes a sudden move so the dad shoots him.
That seems a bit suspect, in my mind.
Race exacerbates the belief too. Not everyone who advocates these laws are racists, but you really do get some who are itching to pull a trigger when a minority walks on their property.
I personally use "like a gun owner in a room full of black people" in place of "like a kid in a candy store."
It's not that I'm comfortable with murder but that I'm comfortable putting my safety and my family's safety above everyone else's. I also know that stopping to "negotiate" could affect MY life or death so I'm comfortable assuming that anyone forcing their way into my home (I always keep my doors locked so it's not like you can just walk in) means me harm.
Edit:
Reddit is a weird place. Redditors will happily upvote people talking about using violence to defend their pets against attack but they downvote people using violence to defend their home and property.
I mean I see your point, but it's just one that I think it's wrong. I think your mentality does more harm than good.
What if it's like your kid downstairs sneaking a beer? They drop the bottle, sounds like breaking glass. Are you comfortable knowing what your kid looks like in the middle of the night with no lights? Is everyone?
The shoot first ask questions later policy just seems really rigid in a really bad way. Or like it's just some Drunk kid who thought it'd be funny to break in. He's not right to do so, but you don't know his intent, and so following what you said you kill him. You had a right to, because you didn't know boys intent and it may have been "murder everyone!" but do you see what I'm saying here?
Also I really don't advocate violence for much of anything.
Yeah, I'm pretty comfortable in my ability to tell my family members in the dark and it's not as if all of this happens in a vacuum. You live in the same house so you know there are guns present, etc...
That's actually the strangest thing about this case to me. The daughter knew her dad had a gun and most likely knew is feelings about using it with regards to intruders, etc... How could she not know that he might fire at the guy?
As for the drunk kid who thought it would be funny to break in? To bad for him I guess. I can't say I'd feel all that bad about it. A intruder is an intruder...
And what if it's your drunk kid breaking in to someone else's home?
Would I be horribly sad over the death of my kid? Yes. While I may blame the homeowner I certainly wouldn't want to see them behind bars for it.
Yeah, it's my kid but he/she was doing something illegal and something they should know better than to do, regardless of their state of impairment. I'd probably blame myself for bad parenting more than anything else.
Jesus Christ.
To clarify this next thing, I don't own any guns and would probably feel more frightened to have them in my house than I would feel safe. But I think the point this guy is trying to make is "I value my life more than a stranger who got into my house." which is something I can agree with. I'm sure if you we're dealing with this situation in reality and not the theoretical nature of an Internet discussion, you might agree too.
And when someone says "I don't think everyone should be able to own a gun." people freak out...
Yah, I'm smelling "doesn't want to admit a point." Myself.
Or sociopath. One of the two.
My sister called the cops on me because I knocked once on the door and jokingly said "Police open up." And then walked in.
She literally knew me all her life.
You willing to bet your family's life on something like that not happening?
Well, you were being a dumbass. What did you expect? Hopefully it taught you the valuable lesson to wait until someone opens the door to let you in, instead of just barging in.
Of course, because that's the point not "Even family members can mistake family members for strangers."
I normally knock and then loudly annouce myself and then walk in. IN all the times I've done that the mistake happened once, but if the castle doctrine types were living there I'd probably have been shot for the mishap...
You're operating under the false assumption that people who support the castle doctrine aren't going to use some sort of logic and reasoning skills before pulling the trigger and that's just not the case. Obviously they will.
>I normally knock and then loudly annouce myself and then walk in.
You'd do that once in my house after which I'd make it clear that isn't an acceptable way to enter my residence and that you should wait for me to answer the door. You do it twice and I'd make it clear you weren't welcome in my home.
As to your edit. your message is clear to me. "I will shoot anyone I think is a threat because I can't figure out any other way to deal with an intruder."
I know Texas isn't the only one, but it (also Florida's) plays fast and loose with "immediate danger." You can literally kill someone for only breaking in to your house...that's bizarre. That's too much leeway imo.
I really don't have a problem with that at all. If someone breaks into my house I'm going to shoot first and ask questions later. I'm not going to stop to find out if they have a weapon or not because doing so might get me killed.
Sorry, my life and the lives of my family are worth more to me than the life of somoene breaking into my house.
At least you admitted you have no problem killing someone over burglary. Hell, you'd kill someone mistaking your house for someone else's. What a persecution complex.
When it comes to my safety there are lots of things (burglary included) that I have no problem killing people over.
And yes, I would kill someone for mistaking my house for someone else's. If you break into my house I'm going to give you about 5 seconds to identify yourself. If you don't and can't provide a reasonable reason for your actions I'm going to shoot becuase I don't know what the hell you might do.
You seem to ignore the fact that breaking into someone's house assumes intent. It's something you've got to work at to do. That's a lot different than "mistaking" my house for your own. Meaning, you've got to do some work to come through my locked doors and windows. It's going to be more than just a simple mistake.
You realize that you aren't in danger from burglary. That's the definition of burglary...lol. As for assuming intent, that's your assumption. This has happened by the way, this isn't just some academic thought experiment:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeathofYoshihiro_Hattori
Wow. TIL of that case.
Pretty damn sad :-(
Yea, it is incredibly sad. I actually walked into the wrong apartment when visiting a fried one time and it made me think about it.
I too have done that; thank god I live in Illinois.
Any unwanted stranger in my house could pose a danger. They may or may not be carrying a weapon as they rob me. I don't know that. Better to err on the side of my safety than become a victim.
Besides that, I have the right to defend my property as well as my life and frankly my property is worth more to me than the life of someone trying to take that property from me.
>Besides that, I have the right to defend my property as well as my life and frankly my property is worth more to me than the life of someone trying to take that property from me.
man you keep getting worse and worse. Property rights are not absolute in the United States.
Yeah, lets see what happens to a burgler who tries to lecture me on property rights as he tries to steal my stuff.
Emphasis on "tries" here because I can guarantee he won't make it out the door.
You sound like the type of mouthbreather who mentally defines everyone darker than Drake as potential burglar.
You do realize that I'm black, right? I mean, I've mentioned it in postings before.
This isn't about race, at least not for me. It's about feeling secure in the one place I should always feel secure - my own home.
Right. And the one day you forget to lock the front door? Or you hear someone knocking on the door looking for help?
Knocking looking for help is certainly a lot different than breaking into a home.
And really, how many people enter someone else's home without waiting for them to come to the door after knocking? That's just stupid and rude.
You're really going to just enter someone else's house (even a friend's). Forget the legal rammifications, you're invading their privacy.
And that justifies shooting first and asking questions never?
In certain situations but not all, yes.
I think everyone has a reasonable expectation of privacy and security in their own home and just entering someone's house without being invited is in direct opposition to both of those things.
Okay, so don't break into a gunowner's home in Florida.
Problem solved.
What a way to cannonball yourself into a conversation and sound like a mouth breather.
But what's the criteria for trespassing/intruding? The daughter invited the boyfriend in. Does she not have the agency to do that? Who has the legal permission to make someone a guest of the house?
I guess in this case you could say the dad was justified (massive air quotes) as the daughter said she didn't know him. But still.
> Does she not have the agency to do that? Who has the legal permission to make someone a guest of the house?
That's a really good question. I'm betting that as a minor she may not have legal permission.
Yah, just don't be that tenth person and you'll be fine! /s