Drama in /r/WTF over a college diversity group holding a party that welcomes people of all races and colors to attend except for White people.
(self.SubredditDrama)
SubredditDrama
41 ups - 21 downs = 20 votes
Here are the drama-spawning comments that are buried child comments.
"ITT: White racists who don't understand why and how people of colour need to organize together, thus proving that people of colour need to organize together."
["There's no saying that a prejudice against white people can't exist. It just can't be labeled racism. The dictionary definition is simplistic and ignores the historical context and racial power structures that exist in America."]
(http://np.reddit.com/r/WTF/comments/209zfd/washingtoncommunitycollegediversitygroup/cg1hgx5?context=3)
"The reason things like black/Hispanic caucuses in Congress, black student groups, and events like this exist is that POC, with the exception of certain Asians, are largely underrepresented in education, government, and similar groups. An interest group solely for white people is inherently racist because there isn't currently any institutional discrimination against white people, and the same cannot be said for POC."
"I'm probably going to get downvoted to oblivion, but this doesn't seem like a big deal for me. How is it different from, say, a women's support retreat that men aren't allowed to participate in. I mean, I get that the difference is that this is billed as an official function, but the idea behind it is kind of the same. People who see themselves as oppressed are going to be able to more freely speak their minds without members of the oppressive group there (which has nothing to with specific individuals)."
Edit: /u/Erikster found more drama about this in /r/Seattle.
http://np.reddit.com/r/WTF/comments/209zfd/washingtoncommunitycollegediversitygroup/
108 comments submitted at 23:31:31 on Mar 13, 2014 by red321red321
I do not understand why it is problematic to hold an event that is primarily intended for "people of color." A white person really doesn't belong in a "safe space" for racial minorities for the same reasons that I wouldn't belong in a "safe space" for female victims of sexual assault (because I am male and have never been victimized by any form of sexual abuse). The event is being held at a Washington community college (and, of course, the state of Washington is known for low levels of racial diversity), and it was designed solely for assisting minority students; although this may sound offensive, whites serve no purpose at that kind of meeting.
> I do not understand why it is problematic to hold an event that is primarily intended for "people of color."
It's not. It's problematic part comes when they deny white people entry.
> A white person really doesn't belong in a "safe space" for racial minorities for the same reasons that I wouldn't belong in a "safe space" for female victims of sexual assault
The reason a male shouldn't be allowed into to a safe space for female victims of sexual assault is because they're trying to cope with a major trauma where irrational fear and anxiety is completely acceptable during that healing process.
On the other hand white people don't make the space unsafe for minorities, especially out of the population of the employees of a slightly more liberal then average university. So in this case it's divisive with no actual benefit beyond playing into the segregationist idea that "race mixing" is a reasonable cause for tension, or even a trauma, which all minorities need relief from.
The flyer is talking about people who work at a university. Is it such a burden for educated, middle to upper-middle class people to be integrated? If not then why does that argument magically gain ground when those people are educated, successful minorities?
I do not understand why it is problematic to hold an event that is primarily intended for White people. A Person of Color really doesn't belong at a snobish Country Club for the ruling class for the same reasons that I wouldn't belong in a "safe space" for male victims of sexual assault (because I am male and have never been victimized by any form of sexual abuse). The event is being held at a Washington community college (and, of course, Seattle is known for the most liberal city in America.), and it was designed solely for assisting only white students; although this may sound defensive, People of Color serve no purpose.
Racism is racism no matter which colors you use to paint hate.
You can't really think those two situations are comparable?
How not? If some white guys got together and wanted to discuss diversity without people of color being there, it would be the same as the other. I'm sure these "Country Clubs" talk about it and next you have Paul Ryan talking about urban men being lazy.
> If some white guys got together and wanted to discuss diversity without people of color being there
So you mean like the Republican National Convention? A PTO meeting? A Fortune 500 company board meeting?
Yes, that is a problem. Two wrong don't make a right. BTW of the two black senators of the US, Tim Scott is a republican and for Fortune 500, seven CEOs are black. Check out John W. Thompson from microsoft the 30 something biggest Co. in the country. It's not a white only club but more not enough blacks in the club problem. And sorry, I don't know what PTO is.
We can look at it at a different way also. I'm a member of the Green Party and I don't see many blacks leaning this far left for Social justice, Gender equality, Ecological wisdom and many other things.
They are very different, you are correct on that, but it is still a respectable position to be opposed to both on the principle that it is wrong to treat people differently based on their race.
You mean not being racist?
I agree, that is a very respectable position.
I wouldn't have a problem with that if I thought it were really so simple. As it is, I think white people have a lot of resentment over their perceived loss of privilege over the past few decades, and outcries over petty things like minority-only meetings and BET and Black People Meet are just an extension of that.
I agree it is far from simple, and there may well be people that are like you just said. But, there are also people that honestly believe in the principle of the thing, so simplifying things either way is wrong. Also, we should give people the benefit of the doubt to being honest, unless they indicate otherwise.
It's crazy that I live in Seattle currently and it's the place where I experience the most racism. I fucking hate this place I want to go back to Jersey where I belong. It goes to show that the title "liberal city" don't mean shit.
Come back to jersey dog! Been here my whole life couldn't imagine moving to the west coast. Jersey is GOAT
I wish, I'll have to wait till I'm older I'm only 17 right now.
Why'd you go from jersey to Seattle? Family moved or college?
Mom's job brought us out here. I miss South Jersey so bad dude.
That sucks man I feel for ya, I would just try to enjoy Seattle while you can and make it back to jersey when you're older and have more control over your life
It isn't problematic to hold events primarily intended for White people, those happen all the time. it's just that you don't call it "event only for White people". You call it a meeting for the University libertarian club, a "Frozen" cosplay event, or the Republican party convention. Nobody has a problem with those.
I think you're trying to make a joke, but it failed so hard. Those might be white-dominated groups, but they aren't putting NO BLACK PEOPLE on the flyers. This isn't just a de facto majority of non-white people, it's an example of intentional discrimination.
They don't have to put "no black people" because if they organize an event primarily for white people, demographics (and plenty of dog whistles in the case of the Republican party) will ensure that a majority of white people will show up. If you organize an event primarily for POC at this Community college, apparently you can't ensure that a majority of POC will show up unless you explicitly say for whom the event is intended. It's no different than organizing an event just for women students.
You should read this group's pledge: "I feel that negative actions toward any person based on race, ethnicity, gender, gender identity, religion, sexuality, ability, or any other factor are unacceptable." A women's group is up front about that it's exclusively about women's issues. This group, however, claims to be about bridging relations between races in their community. This isn't a club just for African Americans, or Indians, or Mexicans, or Puerto Ricans. It's a diversity organization--unless you're white. If you read the flyer, they're even keeping the location secret to make sure no white people can even them.
So your problem isn't with the event per se, but more that it is organized by a group that calls itself the diversity and equity advisory committee? Does this mean that if this group had organized a meeting just for women, and had excluded men, you'd find it equally wrong?
More to the point; how do you know that this is the only thing they do? Maybe they don't call themselves the POC advocacy committee because they think White people have a role in creating diversity, just not with this particular event.
Yes, if this group (which also claims to be against sex-based discrimination) had planned an event which was only for women, I would find that equally hypocritical.
And regardless of whether this is all they do, does that make this okay? "We want to build community, just not with you white people."
>They don't have to put "no black people" because if they organize an event primarily for white people, demographics (and plenty of dog whistles in the case of the Republican party) will ensure that a majority of white people will show up.
Do you really think this is how white people operate? I won't deny there are racists, but damn, this isn't even giving the benefit of the doubt
The irony is that the worldview of people like u/Imwe is actually racist in itself. It ostensibly pushes the narrative that people of color can't be individuals with their own unique political ideologies and beliefs - that if you're black you can't vote Republican because that's not how you people are supposed to vote.
This is how white people who organize events primarily for other white people often operate, yes. I never said that it all white people, or even a majority of white people, behave this way. However, I am saying that the Republican party on many levels is fond of this tactic.
I get the feeling you have... Opinions about white people.
No one organizes an event "primarily for white people". They organize an event for their friends, acquaintances, and people who share their interests, and given that there are far more white people in the US than black, most of those people will probably be white. Not racism; probability.
Nobody likes passive-aggresive people with feelings, Spartacus321. If you have something to say, say it.
Anyway, I'm willing to take you up on your challenge. If I find an example of an event/organization primarily intended for white people (men/women), without the expressed intention of being a White nationalist/supremacist organization, will you admit that I'm right? If I can find such an example, it is just a question of percentages right?
I wasn't passive aggressive: I said I thought you had "opinions" about white people. If you want me to be more blunt, fine. You sound like someone that thinks half of everything white people do is racist.
>If I find an example of an event/organization primarily intended for white people (men/women), without the expressed intention of being a White nationalist/supremacist organization, will you admit that I'm right?
If you could, I'd be curious and surprised. I'd be interested in what your opinion of what constitutes an "expressed intention" though.
There are non-white Republicans just fyi.
I know. That is why I said primarily intended for white people. There is no denying that they have problems reaching out to minorities. Doesn't make them bad by definition, but that is the way things stand.
How is this a case of racism against white people?
Are we being fucking brigaded?
This is like complaining about being excluded from a convention of cake bakers when you bake muffins. It's not relevant to you. Why the hell do you give a shit?
No, this is like having an organization dedicated to teaching people about accepting all sorts of cupcakes, but telling people who bake angel food cake that they aren't welcome at the meetings.
>brigaded
Or maybe people just don't like racism, regardless of which race is being discriminated against.
They made a point to purposefully exclude white people. How in the world do you not get that? Are you fucking stupid??
You're not being brigaded. This is reddit. This is how most redditors actually weigh the issue.
"my idiotic opinions are being downvoted! omg, le brigade!"
Your analogy only works if a group of only white people purposefully excluding minorities wouldn't be deemed a hate or supremacy group.
This isn't SRS. Most of us don't subscribe to the ridiculous notion that "POC can't be racist."
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I didn't say that.
I'm sorry for helping to fill up your inbox, but we aren't being brigaded. This is just the typical view on subredditdrama when it comes to anything related to race, or sex.
Where's that shill calendar, I'm confused on whether or not /r/greatapes is on Thursdays.
It's pretty telling that the only thing reddit can universally agree on being racist, is someone wanting a conversation about minority experiences to be dominated by minorities.
Oh, and Spike Lee.
When was the last time there was an event that was deliberately excluding minorities voices? To the best of my knowledge no such event has been held recently that hit the news and I would say 100% reddit would cry racism over it(rightfully so). The issue from that angle hasn't been in the conversation on reddit because it hasn't happened recently.
You can look at how reddit reacted to Russia anti-gay laws for an analogous situation. Russian government excludes gay people from protections and what are considered basic human rights and gets pretty much universally(in so far as I saw) decried as homophobic. If an event tried to deny minorities basic access in to a talk then I would think it fair to say reddit would react in a similar way.
But... but... my opinion on how black thug culture is terrible simply must be discussed at the NAACP.
Something something free speech, racism, and other myopic ignorant bullshit.
This is the worst kind of discrimination: the kind that effects me!
People have a knee-jerk reaction to anything discriminatory.
Same reason why so many people are upset about Affirmative Action.
I agree; as well-meaning as they may be, white people have a tendency to dominate discussion in one way or another, whether by offering unnecessary opinions or asking questions about things that POC just kind of "get". While there's a time and place for that, sometimes I think it's perfectly okay (necessary, really) to say, "Wait, no, not this time whitey."
-said the white girl
Yep, that's the way to bring about racial tolerance: by being intolerant towards another race because their experiences are different.
Jesus christ you have racial tolerance issues.
How so?
You just negatively generalized an entire racial group and support/rationalized segregation. You really need to ask how so?
Are you joking?
America is dominated by white people. Every position of power is dominated by white people. Every avenue of propagation of speech is dominated, also, by white people.
And yet, saying a fact like "yo, white people dominate conversations pretty much all the time" is fucking racism. Not the white people actually dominating conversations and having all the power, but observing it is what makes it racism.
It's like quantum fucking racism, man: you have to observe it before it's racism.
Just because other people are racist doesn't mean you can't be, too. Discrimination isn't a pendulum, traveling in one direction until it stops and goes in a different direction. Instead, it is closer to waves crashing against a shore: there is a general direction to them, but you can't argue that there are currents moving in other ways, and even opposite of the main flow.
Honestly, it's your use of the word dominate that fucks it all up for ya. It suggests white people are actively controlling all of that and denying any of it to other groups. Which simply isnt true. You could probably leave everything else and swap dominate for...idk..."hold" and it'd be far less racist and inaccurate.
Anyone in this thread that expresses sympathy about the diversity group's actions and intentions has been downvoted to shit. The thread being discussed is even worse. Reddit, with a primarily white male userbase, is burying anything that disagrees with their opinion that not inviting white people to this is the worst thing ever. How is that not dominating the discussion? You're even telling /u/beanfiddler to modify her language. But you're not dominating the discussion, no. Perish the thought!
I'm just saying that sometimes minorities need their own space to discuss minority issues. White people get their spaces by default, by virtue of being in the majority.
Sorry but we disagree on your second point there. A space that's more white than not due to current demographics is not the same thing as a white person space. You're conflating incomparable things to support your position.
The fact is still that white people have their white-only spaces. We're just privileged enough to not have to print it on a flyer because we will most likely be in the majority no matter where we are in the US. It's different when your group makes up only 2% of the local population.
There are no de jure, whites only spaces in America. Stop conflating a majority position with legalized segregation. Segregation solves no issues, regardless of who is segregating who.
Where's the white-only spaces?
And who is we? Are you assuming im white? Racist...
Um, no, I'm white, hence "we." I didn't want to come across as if I think I'm better than other white people or something.
As for white spaces, again, we don't have to state it outright. It just kinda happens that way. Though apparently there is still a KKK faction active near me. Was pretty disturbed to learn that.
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There's a certain common sense about what you're saying but from a historical perspective the opposite has consistently been true. Racism is this black box that people see the effects of and rarely look inside. The fact that, as you say, there are some things that POC just "get" is all the more reason to bring different perspectives together. All the people involved can benefit from exploring the edges of what they intuit to figure out what's real and what's just been left unsaid because it's the hymn of the converted that you're hearing.
That might be a good point if this were a regular thing. This is a single event by a single group that felt it was necessary for them for whatever reasons. To hear people in this thread talk, you'd think they were talking about seceding and starting their own Union for black people. It's kinda bullshit that minorities can't seek to have their own tiny little space--for an hour--without this kind of hellish backlash.
> That might be a good point if this were a regular thing.
Yeah, this doesn't really care a whole lot of weight with it.
> It's kinda bullshit that minorities can't seek to have their own tiny little space--for an hour--without this kind of hellish backlash.
I think the backlash to this sort of thing is fine, except that it's usually so totally nonconstructive and misdirected. To me where the line was crossed was in actively denying people access to something that just seems social. It also comes across as petty when they follow it up with saying that those same excluded co-workers can feel free to start a white people only group where they discuss their privilege and racism. Keep in mind, they're talking to their presumably tolerant co-workers there. So if their working space isn't so bad they're not doing more then sharing a few drinks then where is that anger coming from and is it really being directed at the right people?
Internalised racism over here.