Is the Confederate flag a symbol of racism? CMV debates. One user objects, "They saw more in the flag than slavery and racism, why can't you? Probably because you are closed and symbol minded." (np.reddit.com)
SubredditDrama
101 ups - 28 downs = 73 votes
255 comments submitted at 15:33:44 on Feb 26, 2014 by RC_Colada
I wish there was some sort of widely accepted cultural symbol for being pro-state's rights without the stigma of racism and treason attached.
Like, the Nullification Crisis or something. That was pretty great, we should do it again.
>pro-state's rights without the stigma of racism
That doesn't exist.
So I shouldn't be able to talk about the "laboratory system" of testing different approaches to economic/welfare issues via letting states decide? Like what's happening in Texas at the moment and how it's capturing a bunch of young people from California and the like. It should be all the federal government, or it's automatically racism?
Then characterize yourself as pro-federalism.
You're technically correct, but the answer still annoys me. See, although "federalism" is supposed to mean "states having authority separate form the federal government", what it comes off as to someone unfamiliar to civics is "someone who generally supports the federal government." It's a bit like telling a guy annoyed at skewed divorce courts that he should be a "feminist". Yeah, it's correct, but no one will have any idea what he's talking about, and it would be understandable if he was a bit annoyed about it.
Either way, though, it's better than calling yourself an "MRA" or waving around a Confederate flag.
Essentially, yes. While not necessarily true, even today it seems to be. Especially when you hear extreme rightists wanting to repeal federal civil rights policies. Something that important just can't be left to individual states.
Throw a portrait of John C. Calhoun on a flag and wave that around. What a handsome flag that would make!
Even still, Calhoun himself drew the connection between nullification/secession and the increasing tension over the slavery question:
>I consider the tariff act as the occasion, rather than the real cause of the present unhappy state of things. The truth can no longer be disguised, that the peculiar domestick institution of the Southern States and the consequent direction which that and her soil have given to her industry, has placed them in regard to taxation and appropriations in opposite relation to the majority of the Union, against the danger of which, if there be no protective power in the reserved rights of the states they must in the end be forced to rebel, or, submit to have their paramount interests sacrificed, their domestic institutions subordinated by Colonization and other schemes, and themselves and children reduced to wretchedness.
For us non-racist Southerners, this discussion is a double headache.
The first from the actual racists and their bad history, and the second when you damn Yankees decide to take them as an opportunity to crap on both the South and the very concept that there might be more to Southern culture than redneck culture.
Rneg has it right, the only people trying to claim that flag represents the South are the assholes waving it. If Southerners would stop wallowing in the Civil War you'd never heard about it again, we're the ones who keep bringing this shit back up.
No, the rednecks down here keep bringing it up. My point is that those people don't represent the rest of us. Being lumped in with the ignorant assholes is my beef with the aforementioned damn Yankees
Considering the sort of people we routinely elect to office down here I can't really fault the damn Yankees for having a poor impression of this place. Hell, the fact that we still have to keep having the argument over the Confederate flag to begin with isn't exactly a point in our favor. Until we do a better job of corralling our crazies we have to expect a certain amount of scorn, here.
I'm not one of the crazies, so I don't appreciate being grouped with them. I expect it, I just don't care for the idea that I have to tolerate it.
I don't like it when people make assumptions about what I believe or how smart I am because of where I live or how I talk.
Well sure, I'm right there with you. Which is why I'm directing my anger at the crazies who are making us all look bad.
I can be irritated at both, you know. It doesn't take up much time and it's my day off anyway.
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I live in the South. I have rarely seen Northeners in these discussions say that all Southerners are rednecks. In fact, most of them argue that the Confederate Flag is a poor representation of the South since it is just a racist symbol from some very dark chapters in the region's and country's past. Meanwhile I see more Southerners say that the Confederate Flag represents their heritage and culture. These are the people you should be upset at because they are the ones trying to fundamentally link Southern culture with the Confederate cause.
> there might be more to Southern culture
NASCAR and Bojangles?
You forgot a bizarre obsession with college athletics, you carpetbagging sumbitch
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But...Bojangles is delicious :(
Hunting too! Like, just an unnatural obsession with killing things.
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>A black college student has won the fight to keep a Confederate flag in his dorm room after school officials initially told him to take it down.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2011/12/02/black-college-student-wins-fight-to-display-confederate-flag-in-dorm-room/
This is you right now.
I was pretending to be what?
Is this the internet equivalent of "I have a black friend and he says it's fine, so..."?
Did I give an opinion? I just linked an article that touched this subject.
What was the point of sharing the article if not to contribute an alternate viewpoint to the thread?
It's not always about picking sides and starting arguments. Some people just like to read and know more about certain subjects. I thought it was an interesting story to share, but then I'm met with someone who's stuck with their own perspective.
I find it kind of funny that someone who linked to Glenn Beck's website defended it with a Glenn Beck-style disingenuous "hey man I'm not saying anything, just asking questions!"
Come on man, at least have the conviction of your dumb beliefs. This "hey the thing I just said isn't SAYING anything, it was just a random collection of letters that wandered in front of my screen and I reflexively posted them, no ideology or opinion here whatsoever" thing is just insulting to everyone, yourself included.
Honestly I don't really care about it either way, it's still funny to see how 'passionate' some people get over a piece of cloth.
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Well, shits getting interesting in here.
SnapShot
(Mirror | open source | create your own snapshots)
No no no, the Confederate flag can be a symbol of two things. It means that the person displaying it is either A) astoundingly racist, or B) inexcusably ignorant of basic American history and too stupid to know it makes them look astoundingly racist.
Or C.) They don't care what you say it symbolizes, and display it to troll the fuck out of you.
It's a symbol of rebellion, much like motorcycle gangs using Nazi paraphernalia after WW2. It doesn't mean they're necessarily racist, only that they don't care what you think, and the more mad it makes you the better.
So what you're saying is they understand that it's a symbol of racism but don't care because they're assholes. That isn't much better TBH
That fits under A, actually. When you're deliberately being racist as shit just to upset minorities that still counts as being racist as shit. I'm not sure why you think that the racist thinking it's funny disqualifies it as racism.
Yet they really do see it as a symbol of their "culture" (and I am use scare quotes for full sarcastic effect, being someone who grew up surrounded by that "culture", I assert that it is real and that it is also ridiculous), and the attempt to take it away from them does nothing but make it about their stubborn pride, reinforcing it as symbol of their "culture".
"Stubbornly clinging to absolutely indefensible racism out of spite" doesn't really count as a mitigating factor.
Again it just brings us back to either the person knows enough history to know what it represents, making them racist, or doesn't know enough history to know how racist it is. Those remain the only two possible options.
But most biker gangs that did use Nazi paraphernalia where racist
Not necessarily.
And in the South, probably the most likely place you'll see the battle flag is on bikes and biker jackets (at least in the states with the sense to remove it from their state flags). You're also very likely to see Christian symbols, as Christian motorcycle clubs are popular. So you'll see aspects of all three mixed together, even in clubs that have black members. (I use this example because I have an uncle in one.) This issue is way more subtle (and in many ways less a big deal) than people outside the South make it.
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Master Trololol
Did someone say my tralala?
Or C) Celebrating the culture of the American South (a combination of A and B)
The bedrock of the culture of the American South, upon which the rest of the culture is irreparably and inseparably founded, is racism.
No, the culture of the American South is nothing to be proud of. The culture of the American South is toxic, vile, and uncivilized.
No, I'm no carpetbagger. I'm just a Texan who bothered to read his great-great-grandfathers' diaries (who lived in the Carolinas). They were awful men who really cannot be defended.
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The Confederate flag does not represent the entire culture of the American south. It represents one particular incident, namely a horrible war brought on by racist ideology.
The guy I responded to said it also represents astounding racism, stupidity and ignorance (aka Southern Culture), which are the factors that lead to that war.
I don't think that's fair to the non-racists in the south. (Yes, there are people who are not racist and stupid in the south, no matter how much you want your hilarious trope to be true.)
So interestingly, after the civil war black people tended to move from the south to the north. Many people argue (I think quite reasonably) that this was because of a culture of racism in the south and that they moved to where they had more opprotunity.
Now however I've read that demographic data shows black people move to the south from the north. In my experience many cities in the north are quasi segregated whereas the southern cities are fairly integrated. Now to say the demographics reflect racism might be going too far. It could just be that culture (food and whatnot) of the south is more similar but it's something to consider.
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you are the ignorant one here
>you are the ignorant one here
Brilliant rebuttal, Cletus. You sure made some strong points there.
> Cletus
DAE everyone in the south is a backwoods uneducated redneck?
so glad this is the comment you responded to. bravo.
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If anyone had that impression you're not doing much to dispel it, are you?
If you act like a backwoods uneducated redneck (eg, by arguing that the Confederate flag does not have racist connotations), then people are going to treat you like a backwoods uneducated redneck.
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Question: If you're not ignorant, why are you defending a flag that existed solely as an obscure naval flag during the Confederacy, and was only brought to prominence via the KKK's "The South will Rise Again" movement post-war?
Seems awfully ignorant to me to claim that the flag represents more than racism when the reason the flag is known today is because of racism.
If you want to celebrate 13 states seceding because they couldn't own human beings any more why not fly the actual confederate flag?
We all know this is the only flag they flew that really matters.
Fuck off you stupid uneducated northerner. Dont you know Lincoln was Literally HITLER!111!!11! THE WAR WAS ABOUT STATES RIGHTS>
WAR OF NORTHERN AGGRESSION. THE SOUTH WILL RISE AGAIN.
/s
Maybe they really like the Dukes of Hazzard.
https://myspace.com/getsomecoolbeans/music/song/dukes-of-hazzard-23706595-23507780
Hey, they were meaning no harm....
https://myspace.com/getsomecoolbeans/music/song/dukes-of-hazzard-23706595-23507780
Beats all you never saw
Been in trouble with the law
Since the day they was born....
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Okay fine. Let's say it's not a symbol of racism (it totally is).
Then it's still the symbol of giving up on democracy and quitting America ^^because ^^you ^^want ^^to ^^keep ^^slaves. Good job!
except its not, its a symbol of southern cultural pride, but fuck different cultures right?
Pride in what?
There's lots to be proud of in the south. Food. Music. Other stuff. Food.
Starting and failing a rebellion for the right to keep human beings as pets? No. Fuck that.
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Fuck a culture of slavery, absolutely. Which is the only thing that flag represents, and your stubborn refusal to acknowledge history isn't changing that.
"Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and moral condition."
There's your "culture," jackass.
I hear this a lot from friends and family, but I call bullshit. If it's strictly a symbol of Southern pride, why don't I see my (very Southern) black friends with 20-foot rebel flags posted up on their front lawns?
If you want to express your Southern pride, you can wear a t-shirt with a deer on it, or get an "I <3 Barbecue" bumper sticker, but people insist on keeping this one very loaded, very controversial, very hurtful symbol.
It's white southern culture, predominantly poor rural whites.
I know it's been used by racists for the most part, but is Lynard Skynard racist for putting it on album covers? I don't think so.
EVEN LYNYRD SKYNYRD admitted it was racist! In 2012! If y'all have an Internets machine there, you can look it up if you know how.
Most people do think so. Even if it's not racist it's really fucking insensitive.
>is Lynard Skynard racist for putting it on album covers
Well their only remaining member has since come out as saying that the flag is, indeed, racist, soooooo........
> If it's strictly a symbol of Southern pride, why don't I see my (very Southern) black friends with 20-foot rebel flags posted up on their front lawns?
There's a small caveat in there:
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or you know they could fly their state flags too.
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That cultural pride was based around the want to keep slavery.
So, yes, fuck that culture.
[deleted]
I'm going to flip a coin to see if you're actually being serious as to whether this is an appropriate counter-argument, brb.
A disproportionately high number did. And many more either worked on plantations or were small farmers who rented them seasonally.
The person you're replying to deleted their comment as I was replying to it, so I'm hijacking your just to get the point across even further. Hope you don't mind!
>Just because the majority didn't directly own slaves (by the way, the mean number of families who owned slaves in all states where it was legal was ~25%, hardly a tiny minority) doesn't mean that they didn't come from households they did, have business that were impacted or relied indirectly on the slave trade, were employed directly by the slave trade itself, or had their lives implicitly entwined with slavery to some degree or other.
>Here's a good blog bost on the subject via /r/badhistory, where more information can be found.
Edit: whoops, the quoted bits are my own words, not the blogpost. It's better and more extensively there.
The only time I'd ever cheer on a hijacker... so far.
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Will you stop saying that? Tons of what people identify as "Southern culture" was created by black southerners, anyway. But yeah, you display your cultural pride with a symbol that deliberately excludes a huge portion of the creators of that culture!
>symbol minded
http://i.imgur.com/DBXCxaI.gif
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>And its so incredibly stupid that you think that flag represents racism and inequality when African Americans and many other minorities struggled for equality for decades after the fall of the confederacy.
Wow, decades! Actually, I would say 14 decades and counting...
A few decades and almost 1 and half centuries are basically the same thing, right?
/s
ITT: butthurt northerners
Butthurt implies they lost....
They're butthurt that the Confederate flag is still a thing
That could be true....if it most people replying were above the line....but they ain't....
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Is it really drama in /r/changemyview? People there are supposed to be debating.
there's always drama. That subreddit is a shithole for apologia of pedophilia, transphobia, and some rather yucky stuff
It becomes drama when it stops being debating and into turns shit flinging.
http://imgur.com/41UA4yB
one of those monkeys is an amputee.
the highest shitball is flying under its own power
The real drama is gonna be here.
IT HAS BEGUN
Thats the best drama!
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I live in Florida and I'll see the "Heritage not hate" bumper sticker from time to time. But my favorite is "If this flag offends you, you need a history lesson." The level of willful ignorance is truly astounding.
> But my favorite is "If this flag offends you, you need a history lesson."
If it weren't a tremendous waste of everybody's time, I'd kinda enjoy seeing someone put black tape over "f this flag offends you, you".
I've been thinking about getting bumper stickers that say "I'm a racist piece of shit" and putting em on cars with confederate flags.
My favorite was a confederate sticker that said "Fighting terrorists since 1861" on the left side of the bumper, and a "God Bless America" sticker on the right side.
Even ignoring the slavery issue, the juxtaposition between Union bashing and fervent American nationalism sums these people up perfectly.
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That's why all history professors are Neo-Confederates.
Ah yes, Northerners must be able to feel superior to Southerners and their damn slavery flags.
I'm Southern by the grace of god, and I think displaying the the stars and bars either makes you a revisionist or a racist.
There might be some truth in that, but I think a lot of the younger generations use it mostly as a fashion statement. I mean, I have a scrunchie in my room somewhere (it was a gift; don't hate me) with the rebel flag printed on it ffs. I don't think most people express strong political or social views via hair accessories.
Fashion statement? Shit, it's not like wearing Che's face. The Civil War is heavily taught in schools and anyone, regardless of their generation, knows what it means.
Some schools paint the Civil War in a very different light. See the thread above about schools in the South.
And even so, that doesn't necessarily mean they're not ignorant to its current cultural significance. Don't get me wrong, I'm in no way in favor of flying the flag anywhere, or wearing it on t-shirts or scrunchies or license plates or anything else. I just don't think that an individual wearing it necessarily means that they're reminiscing about "the good ol' days."
I'm from the north. 9 times outta 10 someone up here sporting that means they miss those good old days. sometimes it's a southern transplant. those aren't mutually exclusive.
I'm from the South, and 9 times out of 10 someone who's wearing or flying it is racist, too. My brother has a rebel flag tattoo (with a duck head... double classy) on his shoulder and I can't tell you how many times I heard that certain individuals should "go back" to continents from which they may or may not have ancestry.
But I also have friends who just... don't think about it. You can't throw a rock without hitting a rebel flag around here, and some people just kind of go with it without considering what it means or who it might offend. Some grew up hearing that, yeah, it's just a sign of Southern pride and those goddamn liberals are hell bent on taking offense at everything. I can't really get mad at that kind of ignorance any more than I can really get mad at rural, uneducated Christians who insist that evolution is a lie. I get mad at the culture that promotes the bullshit, but I can't feel much for the individuals but exasperation.
You don't see young Germans emblazoning everything with swastikas as a "fashion statement," and the ones that do swastikize everything do so with full knowledge and more often than not full support of what it stood for.
The only reasons for thinking flying the stars and bars of oppression is OK are being massively racist or stupefyingly ignorant. Anyone who both knows what they stood for and doesn't support what they stood for will know better than to take pride in one of the most shameful episodes in our nation's history.
>stupefyingly ignorant
That's pretty much what I'm arguing.
I'm a lifelong Southerner whose ancestors fought for the Confederacy, and I'm getting pretty tired of seeing ignorant history revisionists waving the Hillbilly Swastika around and pretending to be too stupid to know what it represents. The war was 150 years ago, we lost, thank God for that because our cause was vile, get over it and move on with your life.
Let's be honest: There's no way a Southerner can spin that they're actually superior when they support slavery and racism.
It's not just northerners. There's plenty of people in the south who have issues with it.
Hell, where I'm at there's anger over it all the time, and we sure have the confederate history to back it up (probably as much or more than anywhere else) if we really wanted to.
Edit: Clarifying, I don't think we should be flying the flag so there's my bias, just saying where I live has probably among the best claims to fly it based on history and it's still a divisive issue. Even among the southerners here. If it's an issue in the capital of the south, it's probably an issue in lost of places too.
I don't see anything wrong with disliking a flag that is synonymous with treason and human bondage
I think a lot of black people on both sides of the mason dixon might also have a few things to say
Yeah, like these guys:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8hPo6mYnks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NR-qqovlgiY
Of course that doesn't inherently change anything about it, but don't act like it's a plain black-and-white thing.
The flag may have a racist history, but symbols change and have different meanings to different people.
Hi there, Texan here, working in Oklahoma, marrying a Virginian. The stars and bars is a repugnant symbol of racism, popularized by the KKK, and only vaguely reminiscent of the Confederacy (which, in and of itself, was a ridiculous and doomed thing, predicated on defending states' rights. The main states' rights in question, of course, being the states' rights to allow slavery).
[deleted]
That's exactly what I said. Read the next sentence. I was trying to demonstrate the absurdity of the states' rights argument, since the main State right involved was the right to allow owning other human beings.
D'oh, sorry about that.
No worries, don't apologize for NOT being racist in this thread.
Nobody cares whether a person is from the South or the Nawth. They care about bad information being used to justify a symbol of fervent racism and/or cultural ignorance.
Hell, my roommate in college was from New Jersey and loved the Confederate Flag. He also loved the n-word and tried to find a way to shoehorn it into every conversation. His point of origin didn't stop him from being insanely racist; the fact that he migrated down to Allerbammer to get comfortable doesn't reflect well on us, though.
Eh, you're going to find racists and decent people in every state, the South included. I get annoyed by a lot of the stereotypes about it that you hear, so I can understand the reaction, even if these people confuse statements about Southern history with attacks against the modern South. I've known Mainers who display that flag, and you really can't get farther from the former Confederacy than that. Still, I can only hope the ghost of Joshua Chamberlain is haunting the shit out of them to this day.
I used to get reflexively defensive whenever someone would make a "the South is a backwards hellhole" joke, but it keeps getting harder to argue the point. Those of us that aren't crazy are apparently statistically insignificant considering the sort of mutants that get elected to office around here, so to a certain extent we can't really complain about the public perception of the places that elect them. Like I said earlier, our governor got into office by winning a "who believes in science less" campaign. This place is a mess.
Granted being a trainwreck isn't exactly exclusive to the former Confederacy; Arizona seems to be trying really really hard to make up for lost time.
>Arizona seems to be trying really really hard to make up for lost time.
Now there's a state with interesting priorities.
No kidding. I was reading an article earlier about how the NFL would consider relocating the Superbowl if Arizona signs that blatantly unconstitutional gay discrimination jamboree law (for the record I suspect Brewer will veto it; she's a crazy asshole but she's not THAT crazy and even the authors are trying to disown that trainwreck) and came across an interesting factoid.
Apparently the Superbowl has only been relocated one other time in the entire history of the NFL, and it was because the host state was making a big show of refusing to accept Martin Luther King Jr. day as a holiday.
You get three guesses which state it was, and the first two don't count. Like you said, interesting priorities.
>blatantly unconstitutional gay discrimination jamboree law
They're just trying to appease the Volcano Gods. Everyone knows that gays anger the Volcano. As a gay person myself, I should know. That last Icelandic volcano eruption occurred the day after my boyfriend moved in with me.
But seriously, I hear that Apple is also pulling the plug on a proposed facility pending the outcome of that debacle. I'm not a gung-ho Apple fan, but that's reassuring to see.
Sad that any state is even trying to move in that direction.
Well it's hard not to feel superior to someone sporting the symbol of a racist, treasonous movement so deeply invested in the idea that an entire race was sub-human that they decided to tear apart the Union rather than give up slavery.
sigh
We get this shit over in /r/badhistory .
This will clear it up for any inquiring academic minds:
Cornerstone Address 1861:
> Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and moral condition. [Applause.] This, our new Government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth. This truth has been slow in the process of its development, like all other truths in the various departments of science. It is so even amongst us. Many who hear me, perhaps, can recollect well that this truth was not generally admitted, even within their day. The errors of the past generation still clung to many as late as twenty years ago. Those at the North who still cling to these errors with a zeal above knowledge, we justly denominate fanatics. All fanaticism springs from an aberration of the mind; from a defect in reasoning. It is a species of insanity. One of the most striking characteristics of insanity, in many instances, is, forming correct conclusions from fancied or erroneous premises; so with the anti-slavery fanatics: their conclusions are right if their premises are. They assume that the negro is equal, and hence conclude that he is entitled to equal privileges and rights, with the white man.... I recollect once of having heard a gentleman from one of the Northern States, of great power and ability, announce in the House of Representatives, with imposing effect, that we of the South would be compelled, ultimately, to yield upon this subject of slavery; that it was as impossible to war successfully against a principle in politics, as it was in physics or mechanics. That the principle would ultimately prevail. That we, in maintaining slavery as it exists with us, were warring against a principle-a principle founded in nature, the principle of the equality of man. The reply I made to him was, that upon his own grounds we should succeed, and that he and his associates in their crusade against our institutions would ultimately fail. The truth announced, that it was as impossible to war successfully against a principle in politics as well as in physics and mechanics, I admitted, but told him it was he and those acting with him who were warring against a principle. They were attempting to make things equal which the Creator had made unequal. > > In the conflict thus far, success has been on our side, complete throughout the length and breadth of the Confederate States. It is upon this, as I have stated, our social fabric is firmly planted; and I cannot permit myself to doubt the ultimate success of a full recognition of this principle throughout the civilized and enlightened world.
thank you very much for this
Thanks, you should pop into /r/badhistory every now and then, for Volcano God's sake!
Plus we do bake sales.
>Plus we do bake sales.
Also, arts and crafts days. I'm thinking of crocheting a scarf with an image of Hitler eating vegetables (he was a vegetarian) while telling stories to a group of kids, with cute puppies crowded around as well.
"Zwei peanuts vere valking down the straBe. Vun vus assaulted. Peanut. Ha. Ha. Ha."
>Then how does he smell?
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The Cornerstone Speech is my go-to "shut the hell up, it was over slavery and our treasonous slaver ancestors were not shy about saying so over and over and over because they thought they were right" source. Whenever the person I'm arguing with tries to handwave it away with "oh well it's not like the Vice President of the Confederacy knew what the Confederacy was all about" then I have to start quoting each individual Confederate state's letter of secession, every one of which was just wall to wall "slavery slavery slavery slavery slavery."
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So you can argue that the Confederate flag stands for more than/other things than the racist past of the south. And you'd probably be right in some sense.
But the swastika was appropriated from Hinduism (and Buddhism). It stood (stands?) for things other than the atrocities committed by Nazi Germany. If you see someone walking around with a swastika, which are you going to think of, Nazi or the Hindu god Kali?
Doesn't it point the other way in Hindu?
If it points clockwise, it's honoring Vishnu, I believe. If it points counter-clockwise (like the Nazi swastika), it honors Kali. Both are apparently present in Hinduism.
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Points both ways.
The are two, actually, they mean different things pointing each way. If I recall the Nazi swastika means something like "honor and courage."
If you ever go to India, you'll see the swastika literally everywhere. On clothes, buildings, carved into bricks, painted on the ground, etc. Cultural context does matter.
I agree.
In Germany, I'd venture you wouldn't see it so much. It's a shame that one culture's innocent symbol reminds much of the western world of such evil, but that doesn't necessarily mean we should try to rebrand the symbol in Germany with its original Hindu meaning.
In the south, the confederate flag can't escape the context of being used as a backdrop for KKK rallies and race-motivated terrorism. You can drape it in the back window of your pickup truck and claim states' rights, but it will invoke the more nefarious connotations as well.
edit: structure to make sense
> can't escape the context of being used as a backdrop for KKK rallies and race-motivated terrorism
Next you're going to tell me that we can't have giant flaming crosses. Thanks alot, Obama. /s
Agreed. If the confederate flag had an original historical context separate from the Civil War, the whole discussion would be different. But it doesn't.
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In parts of Europe where it is illegal to display a swastika white separatists/supremacists have started to display the "stars and bars" instead so if racists use it as a symbol of their racism...
Fun fact: in high school I had an assignment to write a paper entitled, "The South was Right." Our teacher would always refer to the Civil War as "The War for Southern Independence."
Those bits of information by themselves don't mean anything.
In college I wrote a paper arguing against the opening of a slavery museum.
In high school debate, apparently, everything I argued affirmatively for was directly linked to murdering children.
But I actually would support a slavery museum (well, sort of, it sounds boring. I wouldn't be against the idea of it though). And as 'convincing' as those arguments were in debate class ... overfishing's ties to the murdering of intersex children is flimsy at best.
You're inviting others to substitute their own prejudgement for the facts of the context of the real life situation. This will only solidify people's preconceived notions and not actually further any sort of dialog.
It is exactly this kind of perpetuation of shortcut thinking that gets people riled up about gawker websites and causes such an ideological divide in this country.
REGARDLESS of whether or not their prejudices fill in the context correctly in this instance - as a whole it's very damaging.
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South Carolinian here. That shit is pretty standard here. Also, evolution is liberal bullshit and homosexuals are mentally ill.
Same. Private school?
Public and private. The private schools were the only ones that actively taught it as fact, but the public schools weren't a lot better. I went to a majority-black public high school, though, and re-learning about US history there was like a giant slap in the face.
I feel left out here... I went to school in Louisiana and didn't experience anything like that.
Did you go to a private school? They're kind of notorious for it since they don't have to conform to the public curriculum. Most of them are religious institutions, too, so there's also that.
It's amazing how different each region of the US is.
I went to a Catholic private high school up here in NYC, and none of this bad stuff I hear happened there. Several teachers and students were openly gay, the religion program didn't teach Catholicism as the only true belief and preferred we made our own choices, physics, chemistry, math, and biology were all taught extremely well, and I don't think I ever heard the word "Creationism" in school.
I went to an effectively public school. I knew lots of kids who went to private Catholic schools, but history just wasn't something we talked about.
My public (Virginia) school was a lot worse at white washing the civil war than the private one I went to. Virginia knew the war was bad, but they just had to side with the south because they were friends and all that.
Of course the private school was run by nuns from Long Island so maybe that was it.
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> re-learning about US history there was like a giant slap in the face.
No kidding. I was so pissed that almost everything I learned was a complete white-washing or full of half truths.
I'm a pasty white boy from the southwest.
OK wiseguy, how come there are still monkeys?
Checkmate.
And don't even get me started on bananas, or you will be schooled.
Banana's fit perfectly into human assholes. You can't deny god's hand in that!
>You can't deny god's hand in that!
That could be misinterpreted as being victimized by a deity trying to shove a banana into your asshole.
Where do if sign up for this religion.
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Uh oh, kirk cameron incoming!
This is one of my favorite anti-evolution arguments. Creationists use it like it is the #1 argument against evolutionand then act all smug about it.
Try and rebute THAT silly evolutionist!
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I remember in Alabama during the last election for governor we had both candidates competing over which one of them believed in evolution less. They were airing attack ads accusing their opponents of secretly believing in science, it felt like a Twilight Zone episode.
Links to ads? I feel masochistic today and want to lose even more faith in humanity.
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I'm from Canada, I always figured the whole "public schools teach creation" thing was exaggerated and that it couldn't actually be like that. Then I drove through South Carolina and saw tones of billboards promoting creationism being taught in school. Really surprised me...
Yep. That was up on the interstate near my house for like a year. I got spitting mad every time I had to drive to WalMart.
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The Civil War should be called the War of Southern Treason since that's actually more true than northern aggression
Or we can just continue to call it the Civil War because it already has a widely accepted name that doesn't demonize an entire half of the US. I'm not a South defender, and I don't like the confederate flag, but why pour salt into wounds? Imagine if we called WWII "The War When The Germans And The Japanese Were Complete Assholes". I'm pretty sure that wouldn't go over well.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BhUp4JxCIAAdBlN.jpg
Good point. How about "The War of the Treasonous Slavers?" That takes the blame away from those who did not keep slaves.
Well they don't call WWII "the War of Allied Aggression". I prefer the Civil War to be called the Civil War. I was just trying to make a point that calling it the War of Northern Aggression is patently false.
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I am pretty sure the "war of southern treason" is a retort to what I sometimes see as the civil war seriously changed to the"war of northern aggression". It's meant to be a retort, not a serious suggestion. However, even if it wasn't serious, it could be, because there is no bullshit "both sides were wrong" on this one. The south was wrong. But you still see people flying the stars and bars, unlike in Germany where it's illegal to fly the Nazi flag. It's similar if people flew the talibans symbol or some shit.
>But you still see people flying the stars and bars
Minor correction: the "Stars & Bars" refers to the first CSA flag, not the subsequent ones. This isn't the flag typically displayed by Neo-Confederates, just in modified form by Georgia.
Interesting. The more you know!
Don't forget the Italians!
I prefer to see Mussolini as the Pinky to Hitler's Brain.
Whut a' we gon' do today Hitler?
The same thing we try to do every day Mussolini, try and eliminate all the Jews!
Hitler and Mussolini, Hitler and Mussolini, one is useless, the other insane!
> Hitler and Mussolini,
And Tojo!
>Hitler and Mussolini,
And Tojo!
>one is useless, the other insane!
And the other one's Tojo!
(reference)
What did you say about the War of Nothern Aggression? Everyone knows the South were just freedom fighters fighting to own humans as per their natural right and Lincoln was the real racist! /s
I've already said all I needed to say about that.
I wonder if /r/badhistory has linked to this thread yet.
If not, I'll do it! :D
Not yet.
Lots of bad information in there.
More.
And more.
I like reading this over coffee, which I'm drinking out of my "Robert E. Lee did nothing wrong!" commemorative mug.
Edit - Oh, here's even more.
If we were to commission a painting for /r/badhistory, it would be like Napoleon Crossing the Alps, except it would be you on the horse and it would be Turtleeatingalderman Crossing the Defaults
Fine. Just don't expect me to sign away the movie rights without a generous offer.
two doge coins enough?
I know I'm on the internet and should know these things, but I can only respond in a Lucille-Bluthian manner: I don't know what that is, and I don't care to find out.
Great, cause I don't have any, anyway.
Can we include blessed volcano god that attacks the Russians without the Mongols fucking everything up in Winter?
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Hahaha. Hillbilly Swastika. That's a new one. Wish i heard it in college, I would have used it a lot.
Southern Drama always reminds me of being told to "Go back to the North ya damn Yankee" when I visited Charleston a few years ago. I couldn't believe people were still angry over the Civil War
To be fair, if that Southerner had gone up North, he/she would have fielded dumb questions like "Do you wear shoes in the South?" and "Have you ever seen a computer?" and been ridiculed for his/her accent.
After a few instances of that, it's hard not to hate Yankees.
No they wouldn't have seriously asked those questions. They maybe would have gotten some light hearted teasing. Nobody would seriously ask questions like that unless the southerner was from the Appalachian mountains.
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It's like they feel like they literally fought in it or something.