OP's tough love for Mt Gox 'Victims' doesn't go down well on /r/bitcoin. Replies include "..What you're doing is basically telling a woman who got raped that she shouldn't have dressed that way." (np.reddit.com)
SubredditDrama
265 ups - 78 downs = 187 votes
185 comments submitted at 15:40:03 on Feb 25, 2014 by JutlandMassiv
>There are certain things normal (aka common sense) people wouldn't do... Like using an exchange where the CEO gives an interview sitting on a huge blue bouncing ball.
Yeah, but in the same post he also said
>Using the raped woman's example, if a woman dresses overly provocative and visits a really bad part of town, alone in the middle of the night, then yes, she is asking for being raped...
Remember last week, there was that drama over those An-Cap in their meetup picture? All white guys and one woman. I bet this was at least how one of their conversations went.
That's pretty racist... oh whoops, I didn't notice at first that you said white guys. Please carry on!
The thing is... who does that, really? Like who are these women going, "Hmmm, think I'll put on my highest heels and my shortest skirt and go stroll around West Baltimore tonight at 2 a.m."? It just seems like a straw man argument to me. If a woman does get raped while in a bad part of town, it's probably because she lives in or around that area, or she got lost. So what's the solution, women shouldn't go out at night? Women, stop applying to night-shift jobs! Don't hang out with people at night, ever, unless you have an escort! If you live in a dangerous area, it is unacceptable for you to go out at night wearing standard clubbing attire!
And actually, you know who does walk around dangerous areas, alone, scantily clad at night? Prostitutes. So ok cool you kinda just said all prostitutes are asking to be raped and that's super fucked up.
And it also characterizes all the men in bad neighborhoods as potential rapists, or as people who are more likely to rape someone. Poverty = criminality.
True! It's a pretty classist argument on a number of levels.
No, it's not.
Going out in "bad neighborhood" is more dangerous, that's an obvious fact.
Well yeah, that's the whole point of a neighborhood getting labeled "bad." But it's not useful advice. People live and work in those neighborhoods. Telling people that they shouldn't go out and about in dangerous neighborhoods is classist because it assumes that people are strolling about those neighborhoods by choice, when in fact many, many people can't afford to live in a safer neighborhood.
Which is to be expected from Propertarians.
No one. No one does that.
People do go to parties with lots of strangers and drink until they pass out though. Never suggest that drinking until you pass out is a dangerous activity that could result in you being harmed in some way because that is victim blaming.
Just to cover my bases: All violent crime is bad and nobody is asking for it to happen to them (unless possibly if they say, "I want violent crime to happen to me, please someone violent crime me!")
I agree with you that people should be encouraged not to drink until they pass out. But I think it's kind of ridiculous to suggest that it's not considered acceptable to tell people that. I've been told that over and over since I was about 12. But there's a problem with specifically targeting the message that black-outs can result in sexual assault towards women and girls, you know? And it's a problem for both men and women, because it means that people don't think of that as sexual assault when it happens to men, and it means that women can end up getting bombarded with "you should have known better" if they do pass out and get assaulted. Which is not particularly helpful once the assault has already occurred.
I also think we need to promote the idea that if we do see someone in a vulnerable position when drunk, that it's our job, collectively as humans, to look out for them. I think focusing too much on just the "don't get so drunk you pass out/black out" message makes people think it's ok to just roll their eyes and think "what an idiot" when they see someone in that position. Yeah, it's a dumb thing to do, but that doesn't mean that that person doesn't deserve some help once they've gone there.
> But I think it's kind of ridiculous to suggest that it's not considered acceptable to tell people that.
This is probably the most boring argument in the history of this sub. It's been had countless times with countless results.
Yes, you've been told that your whole life.
Turns out though, that many people in certain groups in reddit believe giving out this advice (don't drink till you blackout and be alert) = victim blaming. That's when the shitstorm usually begins.
Ontopic: Is this victim blaming? I absolutely think it follow the definition of victim blaming. Is it as bad as victim blaming rape victims? Lol not even close.
My issue with victim blaming is that it's blaming the blameless. Somebody else decided to rape them, so they were raped. Bitcoin investors decided to put $X in an uninsured location with no justification for that location's security or plan in case of a security breach. Then the utterly thinkable happened, and they lost money.
Honestly it made me like bitcoiners more, the innocence of "all the world is shit, but surely my corner is perfect" which is typically so obnoxious becomes somewhat charming in the face of loss until they open their fucking mouths.
Are you serious? You're talking about adults or parents telling you not to drink till passing out. Of course that is socially acceptable. Equally obvious is the fact that Jerzeem was talking about using that same logic on your peers. When you talk to under 30s about not drinking till passing out in the context of avoiding sexual assault then you are 99% of the time labeled a rape apologist and victim blamer.
Our current society has idolized alcohol and being drunk to the point of a god damn religion. How do you act cool in high school? Drink or have access to drinks. It is absolutely a lost cause to try and convince young americans that their actions have consequences and shit doesn't "just happen" when you're drunk.
Edit: Also your advice is to deal with the problem as it occurs. That's stupid and terrible. You should be dealing with the problem before it has a chance to be a problem. That means telling young people to not go out drinking without friends to watch out for you. It also means telling young people that ultimately only they are responsible for their own safety. They cannot trust society to protect them, not only because it won't, but because relying on society to protect you is a terribly passive attitude towards life.
I'm kinda confused about what you're advocating here... you're saying that it's a lost cause to educate young people about the dangers and consequences of binge drinking, but then you're telling me that dealing with the problem as it occurs isn't good and that we should be telling young people how to be responsible... which you admit is already being done by authority figures and apparently not working, but is useless of done by peers as well.
I also don't think that encouraging people to look out for each other means that I don't want people to be told to be responsible. People should be taught to be responsible in their behavior when drinking, and while part of that includes looking out for yourself, part of that also includes looking out for others who might be in danger. Telling people to look out for one another is not the same as saying "don't protect yourself, just assume that others will protect you."
Also, I don't know who you're hanging out with, but if I told one of my friends that I thought they should drink less because they were getting too drunk in dangerous situations, pretty much no one I know would call me a rape apologist. I've had multiple conversations with people my age about the dangers of mixing sex and copious amounts of alcohol, and the vast majority of people I've talked to understand that there is more nuance to it then "Telling people not to black out = victim blaming." Most of the people I know also recognize the dangers of drinking to the point of passing out or blacking out and will not contest the idea that it is not a smart decision.
The problem is, a lot of the time, when people talk "about not drinking till passing out in the context of avoiding sexual assault" it is after the fact. Telling someone who has been sexually assaulted that they shouldn't have gotten so drunk is not helpful. If they could go back in time and drink less, I'm sure most of them would, but they can't, and so yeah, if someone tells a victim of rape or sexual assault that they shouldn't have had so much to drink, I consider that victim blaming.
Sexual slavery is... more common in America than most people would like to think. Some prostitutes didn't ask for their life, they're forced into it.
I'm waiting for the MRAs to jump in and call him out for suggesting all men potential rapists. Any minute now.
> It just seems like a straw man argument to me
Yeah, it's troll bait. I've seen it a hundred times on SRD, not sure why people still fall for it.
....no, nope, not doing this today....
"What are we going to do today, SRD?"
"The same thing we do every day, DblackRabbit. Point out and mock victim-blaming libertarians"
My neighbor SRD!
> "The same thing we do every day, DblackRabbit. Discuss rape for hours on end."
Shame and blame, blame , blame
The bravery of reddit libertarians never ceases to entertain.
Everything turns into tape drama on reddit.
Everything.
EDIT: Autocorrect doesn't like the word rape but the comment chain that resulted was far superior anyway.
It's spelled duct tape, not duck tape.
Commence arguings.
I use it to tape mallards to things. Checkmate!
Tape rhymes with rape! Checkmate atheists.
Rape rhymes with elevator. checkmate /r/chess
Lieutenant rhymes with bereft tenant, checkmate USA
So you pronounce the latter "broo tenant?" ^^/s
You should only secure mallards to actual ducts in that case, just to amplify the confusion. If you then hurl the tape at the poor animal's head and it takes the appropriate defensive action... The duct-taped duck on the duct ducks the duck tape.
Duckduckcoin
That's diction blaming, you shitlord
It's okay, tap me and I'll fill in for you today.
I'm tagging you in RES as "my Riggs" now.
It's more like leaving a stack of hundreds on the seat of your car in a bad neighborhood.
Sure, you're a victim, but you're still an idiot for doing that.
I think a good analogy would be handing hundreds of dollars to a man who promised to return your money at a later date plus a few thousand more. Oh, and the man has no reputation or credentials to back his claims. In fact the man isn't known to anybody else and appears to have come to town yesterday. Did I mention that he's really shady about his past?
That's not an analogy at all. That's just exactly what happened.
Damn it, you're right. I've never been very good at this whole analogy thing.
Also, his expertise is in Magic the Gathering, not money. Magic the Gathering Online eXchange.
Every time I hear this I become convinced people are making fun of bitcoiners, it's too stupid to be real. I don't do my banking at a Chucke e Cheese and neither should bitcoiners. All they had to do was wait for a bank to get in on the game. If they wanted to be smart, wait on insured deposits.
Jesus Tittyfucking Christ I will happily blame the victim all day on this one, especially in light of the smug condescension I received for not staying on this wonderful ride to wealth and joy.
Well, if it can be shown that the woman would not have been raped had she dressed a different way (highly unlikely... but this is a hypothetical), then technically it is at least partially her fault for what happened.
Fault: responsibility for an accident or misfortune.
Responsibility: the state or fact of being responsible, answerable, or accountable for something within one's power, control, or management.
So in that situation, dressing a different way is clearly within her own power, and her not doing so directly led to her misfortune.
Now you can get into whether it's reasonable for someone to think that X action (in this case, dressing a certain way) would potentially lead to Y outcome (being raped)... and that's generally where the disagreement lies. And then you also get into "should be" vs "what is"... and then even if it was their fault, you still don't tell it to their face and make them feel worse about an already extremely shitty situation .
The point is, if you knew that dressing a certain way would make you get raped... and you dressed that way anyway, and then got raped... it's your fault, even though most people wouldn't blame the. It is also obviously the rapists fault as well, and most people would blame them.
Getting back to bitcoin though... if your actions have a reasonable chance of leading to X outcome (and as said above, that is really where the whole point of discussion is)... and that outcome of X happens... then it's your fault.
>The point is, if you knew that dressing a certain way would make you get raped... it's your fault
No it's fucking not. Rape is the fault of the perpetrator. What is wrong with you?
relevant usernames
If your actions directly lead to a certain outcome (in this hypothetical situation I'm talking about), and you had control over those actions... then yes, it is your fault. That is quite literally how the word is defined, if you don't like it, phone Merriam-webster.
Remember that this is a HYPOTHETICAL situation, and in no way absolves the rapist of any blame.
No. Rape is always the fault of the rapist period. They are the one who chose to rape, and had the ultimate control over their actions. The responsibility rests squarely, and singularly, on the shoulders of the rapist.
I don't think you know what the definition of responsibility is.
Please, enlighten me.
Already said it in my original post, try reading it next time.
Clothing is not responsible for rape. Countries with modesty laws are among the countries with the highest rape prevalence. Countries with high amounts of sexual shame or Puritanism tend to fall on the high side as well.
Clothing does not drive a man to rape. If a person wants to rape another person, their clothing does not and will not matter. You think a rapist would let a modestly dressed girl walk by alone, and yet would fall ravenously upon a girl wearing club clothes? You obviously don't think men have self control and that's sad.
The responsibility of rape falls squarely on a rapists' shoulders. No one else's. And telling victims (like me!) that it could even kind of he otherwise is complete fucking bullshit.
You did read the first sentence in my post right? The one where I said that clothing having anything to do with rape is really unlikely and that this is a purely hypothetical situation?
Please take this in good faith. What you're arguing is that in a hypothetical situation in which dressing a different way would cause a woman not to be raped, her failing to dress in that way makes the rape her responsibility. People are attacking your hypothetical, which is good because the hypothetical isn't true.
Even accepting your hypothetical, however, you still need to justify why the rape is her responsibility. The responsibility remains with the rapist. Multiple agents being able to prevent something happening does not necessarily make both culpable when the event happens. In this case, dressing how she wants is something a woman can do, it is a right. Raping a woman is not a right. The sole responsibility is with the rapist.
Playing hypothetical games with rape is in poor taste, there are ways of discussing responsibility without alluding to something so traumatic in people's lives.
>StrawRedditor
Pretty fucking clever m8
Except I was being serious...
Well he's not wrong.
The way he worded it will cause a lot of problems. You should never use "deserve" and "rape" in the same sentence.
People don't deserve to get raped. Oh no I did it!
Your one cheeky cunt mate swear on my mothers life
What if you preface it with didn't?
edit: preface, not prefix
Why not?
because doing so wakes the eldar gods....
more like dark eldar
My typos are funnier then what I planed on writing....fuck me
So you think some people deserve to be raped?
The problem is the "asking to be raped/deserved to be raped". While acting like that most likely makes it a lot more likely to getting raped, you still do not deserve/ask for it.
I don't think anyone said "deserved". "Asking for it", to me, is taken as "turned a blind eye to the risks".
I don't want to be a part of this argument, but I feel like colloquialisms are getting in the way.