I'm a girl YouTuber, soon to be streamer on Twitch. I wanted to watch and support other female streamers, but after an afternoon I feel a bit let down. (rant) (self.GirlGamers)

GirlGamers

207 ups - 44 downs = 163 votes

So I sat down and found a few different female streamers to watch, maybe pick up a few tips or subscribe to some. After a few hours I ended up going through a range of emotions. These ended up being disgust, anger, disappointment, resignation and dispair.

It sounds like they were strong emotions to use but I was really looking to find a few role models I could look up to and was completely shocked by what I watched. Here's a few examples.

First stream of DoTa, the first thing the girl said was "I will take all the dicks for you team! I'll show these dirty sluts a good time!" Whilst looking at the camera and winking. Another girl wasn't even streaming her game, she was twerking on camera, donations pouring in. Another girl sat with her cleavage fully out, calling out subscribers names with moaning noises. I mean what?!?! Is this the image of the "girl gamer" Thats being shown to gaming orientated men across the globe?!

I found one or two lovely "serious" streamers who I followed, and a great german girl who I couldn't unfortunately understand but showed some great battlefield 4 gameplay.

In a way I felt motivated to really be one of the serious streamers to produce quality content without resorting to becoming sexualised. It's a shame to think the way I'm treated in Counter strike etc. Is perhaps a result of these female streamers treating themselves like sexual entertainment or objects and that it could be prevented.

Thanks for reading and I apologise if this offends or upsets anyone, but it was nice to share my opinions and feelings about the subject!

167 comments submitted at 15:26:26 on Feb 23, 2014 by Mylifeforhire

  • [-]
  • cocoabunnycat
  • 98 Points
  • 15:43:09, 23 February

"It's a shame to think the way I'm treated in Counter strike etc. Is perhaps a result of these female streamers treating themselves like sexual entertainment or objects and that it could be prevented."

It's not. Yes, it could makes things worse, but ultimately, it is men being sexist. If all the girl streamers were absolutely amazing, men gamers would still be sexist; they've been that way long before streaming was a common thing.

I also really don't see how those girls are doing anything morally wrong. Yes, I think it's ridiculous to stream that when they're supposedly streaming games. But does it really matter? They aren't treating themselves like "objects." They're having a bit of fun, and if this is how they have fun, that is fine. It is no reason for men to discriminate against them.

  • [-]
  • InnocentPossum
  • -57 Points
  • 16:46:38, 23 February

Most Men gamers. I would please like to point out there are some of us (Me. :) ) That fight for your cause. Just saying 'Men gamers' is a generalisation of the male population. One thing you are fighting for is to not be generalised and stereotyped as female. I know it was probably unintentional and this is no means an attack, I just want to warn you to please be careful. There are some good guys out there in the gaming world! :D

  • [-]
  • cocoabunnycat
  • 42 Points
  • 18:12:18, 23 February

So other commenters have already said that that was a rather not-awesome thing of you to say, but I feel that I should add an explanation of a few reasons why it's not okay. For one thing, I never said all men gamers. For another thing, it's derailing- basically, we're trying to talk about the issue that many gamers who are men are sexist, and you're distracting from that conversation by reminding us that you're not sexist, which is irrelevant and is something that we've heard a bajillion times already. Like, if I were to say that people are really insensitive to people with allergies, it would be ridiculous for you to jump in and remind me that not all people are like that, right? Reminding me that some people aren't like that doesn't change the fact that a heck of a lot of people are like that and that it causes a lot of problems.

But thank you so much for apologizing. :) You seem like a nice person and didn't realize the implications of your comment, which is understandable. The above wasn't trying to shame you- I'm hoping that it helps you understand exactly why this is a problem. I'm glad that you're listening to our explanations of why we don't like those kinds of comments. hugs if you like hugs

  • [-]
  • InnocentPossum
  • 15 Points
  • 18:15:14, 23 February

Thank you, you have made me feel significantly less shitty. :D

  • [-]
  • cocoabunnycat
  • 10 Points
  • 18:18:18, 23 February

That's good. :) And hopefully it furthered your knowledge of How To Ally? ;)

  • [-]
  • bunnyguts
  • 5 Points
  • 22:15:59, 23 February

Ah I wish I'd read this before I jumped all over you as well. This is a pleasant exchange. I'm leaving my comment above because it makes another point though.

  • [-]
  • pixelpussy
  • 34 Points
  • 16:59:38, 23 February

we're all aware here that not all male gamers are like that. cocoabunnycat wasn't generalizing.

  • [-]
  • Keldra
  • 17 Points
  • 17:14:38, 23 February

But his rights have been stepped on! /s

  • [-]
  • InnocentPossum
  • -17 Points
  • 17:53:39, 23 February

Are you being sarcastic here or serious?

  • [-]
  • Keldra
  • 8 Points
  • 17:56:47, 23 February

Added the sarcasm tag. Sorry, I thought it had been obvious. :(

  • [-]
  • InnocentPossum
  • -16 Points
  • 18:08:55, 23 February

I thought as much. I am just going to say one last thing before I drop the subject and that is this:

Your (The whole subs) reaction to what I said made me feel really quite shitty especially when words like 'Creepy' and 'Desperate' were thrown around. I understand that Woman have a hard time in ever aspect of their life not just gaming. Whilst I can not come close to empathising with you all I can sympathise. All I was trying to say was I want to help you but I think it is unfair that you are so anti-male that it's hard to motivate myself to your cause. You want equality and to move away from people generalising you as a group when you are all different. However the way that post was worded to me was a generalisation that all men (gamers) are sexist and that hit me the same way a comment like 'All girl gamers are attention whores' would hit you. I was just trying to make the point that you can't expect to move away from a situation by acting like the people you are fighting against. Not just the post above but in another thread there was a quote regarding certain disgusting behaviour along the lines of 'That's just a teenage male response.' It certainly isn't how I would respond, yet I am a teenage male. It again feels the same way (I can only imagine, again sympathy not empathy, I may be wrong.) as when someone says 'Girls only play the Sims' or something like that. It's not true, some may do but certainly not all. You want to get away from that and so do I, but at the same time I don't want to see it flipping completely in the other direction, I want fairness.

It's just the perspective I am coming from. Once again I am HUGELY sorry to have offended anyone and I would like to wipe my slate clean and be an accepted member of the community.

  • [-]
  • jamez042
  • 17 Points
  • 18:59:54, 23 February

Look man, cocoabunnycat said this;

>It is no reason for men to discriminate against them.

>men gamers would still be sexist

and
>It is no reason for men to discriminate against them.

You took that to support the idea "all men (gamers) are sexist" It doesn't mean that, or it would say that. It means some men. Enough that there is such a trend of sexist men a safe-space subreddit like this is necessary. You have to acknowledge that to even be on here! Even with that, it explicitly says "all genders welcome". I don't know what more you want, man.

If you can find maybe 1 good example of a comment upvoted here or on any feminist subreddit that really states clearly "all men are sexist," (that isn't a joke) I'll be impressed.

There is such a big difference between that and the "attention whores" comment because this is one small subreddit trying to improve things for women that they face every time they play games. You don't face that kind of thing, but it can be insidious and judgmental and is an expression of sexism in society that also happens every day. Being unhappy with one small community on what is essentially an issue of semantics is just so small compared to that.

Ultimately the people here don't want it "flipping completely in the other direction", like you say, they just want to play games without being judged/harassed. What you want is actually not as big a deal and I think more to do the fact that you're not completely sure if you believe in feminist ideas yet. Try to get your head round them and how they affect people. it's not something they teach in schools and not something you automatically know, but it's important and you'll begin to understand this sort of issue a lot better if you get the chance to read up about it.

  • [-]
  • InnocentPossum
  • -1 Points
  • 19:04:43, 23 February

Ok, thank you. The same way it didn't literally say all men, it didn't say some men either and I didn't realise people assume the latter. Sorry.

  • [-]
  • cyranothe2nd
  • 17 Points
  • 21:12:54, 23 February

>I want to help you but I think it is unfair that you are so anti-male that it's hard to motivate myself to your cause

If your ethics are contingent upon how nice people are to you, then you aren't an ethical person, nor an ally. You don't get to hold feminism hostage because "boo-hoo, ladies were mean to meeeee!" Our movement won't break because you don't support it. And frankly, saying that we need to talk a certain way to you or you won't support us is 1. revealing your privilege and entitlement and 2. a really manipulative, shitty thing to do. I hope that you go away and think about that. Maybe someday you will realize exactly how shitty you're being right now.

  • [-]
  • admatha
  • 20 Points
  • 18:41:10, 23 February

> I want to help you but I think it is unfair that you are so anti-male that it's hard to motivate myself to your cause.

You're starting to sound suspiciously like a concern troll.

  • [-]
  • InnocentPossum
  • -2 Points
  • 18:42:32, 23 February

Concern Troll?

  • [-]
  • admatha
  • 9 Points
  • 18:54:03, 23 February

Concern troll.

  • [-]
  • LeftMySoulAtHome
  • 4 Points
  • 22:20:25, 23 February

> 'Girls only play the Sims'

I play the Sims, and have since the game came out. (I'm old. lol.) I also play many other games, but even if I didn't I would still be a gamer. Many people have said that if you only play The Sims or similar games, that you can't be a "real gamer". I'd stay away from that line of thought if I were you. (I understand you weren't saying people who play the Sims aren't real gamers, however jumping so quickly to that as an example is just so easy to take the wrong way.)

  • [-]
  • InnocentPossum
  • -1 Points
  • 22:29:28, 23 February

No, I never meant that quote to be true as my view, it's not! :( It was me giving an example of some of the things people say that generalise female gamers as I was using it to compare to the statement said in the post that (I falsely interpreted as a comment that) generalised males.

  • [-]
  • InnocentPossum
  • -4 Points
  • 17:54:08, 23 February

It didn't come across that way to me, so I am very sorry. :(

  • [-]
  • falanor
  • -9 Points
  • 18:00:58, 23 February

Adding the most in front of a group of people implies a non-generalization. Not including it creates a confusion and implies a generalization. I can understand how InnocentPossum was confused via this.

  • [-]
  • pixelpussy
  • 11 Points
  • 18:24:17, 23 February

i really wish i could find this little post that was linked here a while ago that more eloquently explained why putting most in front of something like that isn't needed all the time.

  • [-]
  • bunnyguts
  • 5 Points
  • 22:18:15, 23 February

I think adding 'most' here would have been worse. She wasn't suggesting a percentage of men who are sexist at all. Adding most makes a definite, and arguable, statement.

  • [-]
  • bigninja27
  • 59 Points
  • 17:33:40, 23 February

Stop. That is awesome that you want to be an ally, but pointing how your such a nice guy does nothing but make you look kind of douchey. If you want to help then instead of pointing out how your not a dick try to confront those that are. Your job is not to prove that men can be good, but to fight to change the culture that allows men to be assholes.

  • [-]
  • Dial_the_911
  • 6 Points
  • 19:25:32, 23 February

hey dont kill me but how would a guy go about fighting that cause?

  • [-]
  • shalosh
  • 20 Points
  • 20:50:22, 23 February

> instead of pointing out how your not a dick try to confront those that are

  • [-]
  • Dial_the_911
  • 9 Points
  • 20:59:12, 23 February

right good got it

  • [-]
  • EstherandThyme
  • 14 Points
  • 22:15:05, 23 February

Seriously. Harassment in games would happen so much less often if there were actually a social consequence for harassing people. If you hear or see someone making sexual comments at a female player, making "get back in the kitchen/make me a sandwich" jokes, or otherwise being sexist, speak up and tell them that what they're saying isn't right. Even if you don't make an impression on the harasser most times, you will make an impression on others who had been staying silent. You will definitely make the victim feel better to not be completely alone under a dogpile of harassment.

  • [-]
  • Emb3rSil
  • 18 Points
  • 17:38:09, 23 February

Don't do this. No one was attacking you, no one needs to hear your weird defensive man gamer opinion on this. You sound desperate and really kind of creepy.

  • [-]
  • InnocentPossum
  • 4 Points
  • 17:49:57, 23 February

I never said anyone is attacking anyone. I am really, really sorry to have offended anyone. I really didn't want it to happen like this. I am sorry and would like to start fresh. Please forget I said anything. It obviously came out in the wrong manner and I won't try to correct it for fear of getting it wrong again. It is not what I wanted. Sorry.

  • [-]
  • SunShiranui
  • -3 Points
  • 18:33:53, 23 February

That's a bit of a rude thing to say. He just wanted to dissociate from the kind of people cocoa was talking about, no reason to be mean.

  • [-]
  • admatha
  • 22 Points
  • 18:39:45, 23 February

This sub is extremely welcoming to guys, so there's really no need for each and every one of the male members of this sub to hop up and yell "look at me I'm nice!" every time a discussion comes up about completely different guys being horrible.

  • [-]
  • SunShiranui
  • 8 Points
  • 18:47:23, 23 February

I'm not criticizing that, I think you're right. However saying that he's "desperate and reallt kind of creepy" might be a bit too far, he didn't seem to take that well.

  • [-]
  • Emb3rSil
  • 13 Points
  • 18:37:12, 23 February

Disassociate, yes, and also defend against Cocoa's bristling attack on male gamers. It was a dumb thing to say because it implicitly/explicitly is invalidating Cocoa's thoughts, and that's a bullshit thing to do from a privileged position like Possum's.

  • [-]
  • SunShiranui
  • 0 Points
  • 18:52:36, 23 February

I agree that there's no reason to get defensive over that. However, I think that you could've told that to him in a nicer way. I don't think getting confrontational over these issues is going to get us anywhere good.

  • [-]
  • JJTheJetPlane5657
  • -17 Points
  • 18:18:21, 23 February

Oh, so when a man does this it's desperate and creepy but when a woman does it "you go girl"?

I'm just bitter from the social justice warriors on other subs, but still it's a little ridiculous to attack this dude personally for things that a) other people do all the time that is b) seen as generally okay.

  • [-]
  • Emb3rSil
  • 19 Points
  • 18:22:05, 23 February

I'm calling him that because he seemed to really care that much about defending the actions of male gamer dudes, which is not exactly a position that needs defense, really. They're the most catered-to and mainstream section of the gaming population, we don't need someone always saying "not ALL guys are like that!!!!!".

If you have a problem with SJWs you can take that problem up the road buddy, because you're talking to one

  • [-]
  • [deleted]
  • -14 Points
  • 18:28:43, 23 February

[deleted]

  • [-]
  • unicornbomb
  • 11 Points
  • 20:11:11, 23 February

Then perhaps more male gamers should be willing to speak up about the way that VERY loud subset of the gaming population treats female gamers?

Because as it stands, I see a huge group of dudes all too proud to behave that way, with the rest of the population choosing to either cheer them on (see: the Arteezy debacle of just a few days ago), or say nothing and brush it under the rug.

Those willing to speak up and say "this is pathetic and fucked up" are few and far between, and as far as I'm concerned -- if you're willing to sit idly by and say nothing while dudes reduce women to tears on twitch just for being female, spam them with rape threats, "doxxing", sexually harass them left and right, and just generally act like giant shitbirds.. you're really not much better.

  • [-]
  • HelloDanni
  • 2 Points
  • 21:17:41, 23 February

> social justice warriors

Why is this a thing

Edit: Downvotes? Really? I meant why is that a thing that people use as a derogatory term. I've only ever seen it used negatively, which is my point. Why is that a thing that people see as negative. Sheesh.

  • [-]
  • DocileBanalBovine
  • 3 Points
  • 02:30:24, 24 February

It's a thought terminating cliche. Reddit is really good at turning any sort of label into one. By deciding one disagrees with a group as a monolithic entity, they don't have to think about what anyone in the group is saying.

  • [-]
  • JJTheJetPlane5657
  • -3 Points
  • 02:37:18, 24 February

Why do you assume I don't listen to what other people are saying?

Just because I don't agree doesn't mean I haven't read an argument.

  • [-]
  • bunnyguts
  • 4 Points
  • 22:14:36, 23 February

The wording she used did not actually imply all male gamers at all. I took it to mean 'some'. Your defensiveness read otherwise. In fact I'm surprised you are using the word 'most'. I wouldn't. There's a certain very vocal group of probably younger men who are - and they are very visible. But I have personally never met one in person, and I know a lot of gamers.

  • [-]
  • utopianfiat
  • 3 Points
  • 02:33:33, 24 February

So I think other people mentioned that you don't get a cookie for treating women like human beings.

Also, if you want to get upset over a "generalization" of male gamers, why not try something that isn't largely accurate? Like, I dunno, the portrayal of all of us as jobless and fat, lacking hygeine, being manchildren...

Finally, recognize that this is /r/GirlGamers. They know what the gaming world is because they are there, despite being given loads of shit if they dare to open their mouths on voice chat, despite getting justifiable knots in their stomachs every time someone yells "RAPE RAPE RAPE" over their mic, and despite being in-game messaged shit like this if their gamertag looks too feminine.

Because of this, what you're saying comes down to, in metaphor: "Most of the food served in this establishment will make you sick, but there are some dishes that are good for you!" It's not helpful.

  • [-]
  • 1millionaccounts
  • 3 Points
  • 21:59:08, 23 February

If anything, I'll be the one in the kitchen :]

  • [-]
  • totes_meta_bot
  • 1 Points
  • 07:09:26, 24 February

This thread has been linked to from elsewhere on reddit.

^I ^am ^a ^bot. ^Comments? ^Complaints? ^Send ^them ^to ^my ^inbox!