OP: "Hello mods, we have an anti-semite here." Drama in r/europe when discussing the Roma. (np.reddit.com)
SubredditDrama
75 ups - 27 downs = 48 votes
45 comments submitted at 10:57:05 on Sep 7, 2013 by gatekeepr
OP: "Hello mods, we have an anti-semite here." Drama in r/europe when discussing the Roma. (np.reddit.com)
SubredditDrama
75 ups - 27 downs = 48 votes
45 comments submitted at 10:57:05 on Sep 7, 2013 by gatekeepr
Ah, spoken like someone who truly knows nothing about most roma gypsies.
I'm European, I've lived near gypsies and it wasn't fun, but the solution isn't to treat them like animals and segregate them from society. It's racist.
It's not racist. People don't hate gypsies because of their skin colour or their origins. Why does it always degenerate to "dats racist"? People are cautious of them because of their general behaviour, because of what's acceptable and encouraged in their culture.
That doesn't mean you should treat them like animals, and I'm pretty sure most people don't. They just don't like them, for fairly valid concerns, like you said. Some people might be racist, but only the usual ones. Everyone else is more worried about their behaviours.
And they segregate themselves from society by choice, because it's their culture to live as travellers. Our 'progressive' governments are usually falling head over heels to try to accommodate them, with specially built areas, etc, all paid for by our taxes.
Again, don't boil this down to racism... it's mostly just people getting tired of their shit. Anyone who denies that they cause problems, and thinks that we should just all love each other and hold hands, hasn't really experienced the problems they can cause. But I see that you have seen these issues yourself. Okay, some people can be a bit nasty when talking about them... but hey, that's a separate issue. Some people have legitimate reasons to be that angry.
I live in Berlin. The renters that lived in my apartment before me where Roma. They were scum and left the apartment trashed and incredible dirty. So dirty, we didn't what kind of floor we had in the kitchen until we cleaned up. Many Roma are criminal, baldly educated and refuse to integrate into other societies.
That said: Arguments about how to help them (and us) very quickly devolve into racism. Refusing to admit there's a problem is idiotic. But claiming the problem is only Roma culture and that we made our best effort to bring them into our society is just wrong and often an excuse for racism. Why do we focus so much on them and not on Italians (who fail in education in Germany), Jenische ("White Gypsies") or German trash? Why do we talk more about a couple of Roma than about the fact that there are parts in our country in which Punks, black people, Jews, etc can't set a foot in without being harassed?
Fun fact: there are over a million Roma in the United States. Strangely enough, the unpleasant 'cultural' behaviors that you call 'acceptable and encouraged' aren't actually part of Roma culture here. It's funny, but when the Roma come to a country that doesn't systematically discriminate against them legally and economically, they tend to settle down and find jobs and become part of the community just like any other immigrants. Strange, that, if they "segregate themselves from society by choice". Perhaps the problem is that European society doesn't let the Roma settle down and blend in, not that the Roma don't want to?
(BTW, there are also over two million Muslims in the United States; Muslim immigrants cluster together in their own neighborhoods and preserve their culture; and yet somehow we don't have ghettoes full of angry young Arab rioters. Gosh, I wonder why that is. It couldn't be that whole lack of systematic legal discrimination thing again, could it?)
or it could be that the roma who move to america (which is far harder than moving around in european countries when you're european) are motivated to do something about integration. your comment is an oversimplification of reality.
So if they are motivated to integrate, they have to leave Europe. I think you are arguing against your own point, lol.
that's not what I'm saying at all. the ones who are motivated to integrate DO mostly leave europe, since there is less discrimination in other countries.
So aescolanus says
> Perhaps the problem is that European society doesn't let the Roma settle down and blend in, not that the Roma don't want to?
...and you say
>your comment is an oversimplification of reality.
Then when called on this, you go on to say
>the ones who are motivated to integrate DO mostly leave europe, since there is less discrimination in other countries.
are you even awake?
So you're saying that Roma who are interested in integrating into society have to leave Europe to do it?
You might want to think about the implications of that a little more...
no I'm saying that roma who go through more to move to another country are obviously more motivated to integrate, so they do.
And what about Roma who are motivated to integrate but can't afford to go to the US, or don't want to leave their families behind, or whatever? What's stopping them from integrating with the society of whatever European country they're living in? For that matter, why do so many Roma immigrate to the United States when Western Europe in general actually has a higher standard of living and is right there within walking distance?
Hint: racism.
You can't reasonably argue that Roma 'refuse to integrate' with European society when they've never, anywhere in Europe, been permitted to integrate.
even then: evidently these supremely-integration-oriented roma have failed to integrate in europe. and yet, when they try to integrate in America, they succeed!
even if we granted your ludicrous "every single one of the Roma who goes to America is more interested in integration than every single one who remains on the Continent" premise your argument -still- has a gaping hole in it.
>even then: evidently these supremely-integration-oriented roma have failed to integrate in europe. and yet, when they try to integrate in America, they succeed!
you describe it as if they are the same people, my entire point is that they are NOT the same people.
what is so ludicrous about it? if they aren't motivated to work on integration, why would they move to another country? if they are, why stay in europe where roma have very negative reputations.
we are assuming they grew up in Europe, yes? rather than simply teleporting across to the US as soon as they develop the realization that it exists?
they've got all the time from their birth to their emigration to try to integrate in europe. and yet they fail there where later in America they so absolutely succeed.
iunno, must be something in the water.
Way to dig yourself your own grave
> Fun fact: there are over a million Roma in the United States.
Fun fact: there are millions of Roma in Europe that integrate fine and no one cares.
> the unpleasant 'cultural' behaviors that you call 'acceptable and encouraged' aren't actually part of Roma culture here.
That's great for you, they are in Europe.
> It's funny, but when the Roma come to a country that doesn't systematically discriminate against them legally and economically, they tend to settle down and find jobs and become part of the community just like any other immigrants.
Doesn't explain why they don't do that in Europe then when governments offer them free housing and benefits to stop them from living in caravans illegally but they refuse because 'its their way of live' to be nomadic and travel.
>Perhaps the problem is that European society doesn't let the Roma settle down and blend in, not that the Roma don't want to?
Perhaps the problem is that Europe does and a lot of Roma refuse and Americans who live in another continent like to mouth off about shit they don't know about.
> You understand that by prescribing everyone of a race to a certain behavior is racist right? You have not met every Roma.
Ah we have the "it's there culture" excuse, sounds very much like "I don't hate black people just black culture".
Which isn't problematic at all.
If a culture has reliably false beliefs about the world, or values things that reliably lead to suffering, then there is nothing wrong with criticizing them.
I think we get there is a problem with Roma. Some of us just think outright xenophobia and bigotry isn't the right response.
Jesus Christ, man, it doesn't take first hand experience to understand how fucked up the way the Roma of Europe are treated.