SRSSucks links to an SRSWomen thread and titles it simply "Jimmies status: [RUSTLED] UNRUSTLED" OP from the SRSWomen thread shows up and even more jimmies get rustled. (np.reddit.com)
SubredditDrama
230 ups - 100 downs = 130 votes
424 comments submitted at 19:35:46 on Feb 14, 2014 by ValedictorianBaller
That's kind of sad. The original comment on SRSWomen was pretty benign. Sounded like, to me, just some girl or young woman upset about the transactional / adversarial model of gender interaction that is more common than not in high school and college -- especially if you spend more time thinking about having relationships than actually having one. Remember how they figured out a while back that "hook up culture" really isn't that much of a thing, but people are super anxious about it, because of how much people write about it and consider it the norm? It's kind of like that.
In other words, she's reacting to a norm that isn't a norm, but it's talked about as if it's a norm in that specific context -- young adulthood (and teenage years).
Then some of the comments just got really kind of wacky. I don't think it's healthy for people too embroiled in bad impressions of relationship models, and not actual relationships, to theorize about relationships all day. What happens is stuff like that, and /r/theredpill. It's pure gibberish.
Of course, it's understandable when you're young. Those anxieties are pretty universal, aren't they? Coupled with the whole "look out for dudes, they only want one thing from you!" slut-shaming that's pretty common if you're a young woman, I don't exactly blame any young woman for having a wary view of men and relationships that is so far removed from reality. Plus, reddit's anti-Valentine's Day circlejerk isn't really helping.
What it is... is tragic, and shouldn't be encouraged.
Of course, the antagonism /r/srssucks dishes out isn't exactly helpful either. It's just as toxic, and utterly fails to see the troubled musings of youth for exactly what they are. It misdiagnoses a very common habit (encouraged, let's be honest, by a lot of popular culture) to think the worst of the opposite sex with feminist-led misandry of all things. Which is so far off the mark... I don't even. That they seem to be engaging in the same sort of "think the worst of the opposite sex" behavior, ironically, goes totally over their heads.
Mostly, I see too much of myself in both SRS and SRSSucks to really feel good eating this popcorn. Their narratives are too convenient, and their drama is just a distraction.
> Of course, it's understandable when you're young. Those anxieties are pretty universal, aren't they? Coupled with the whole "look out for dudes, they only want one thing from you!" slut-shaming that's pretty common if you're a young woman, I don't exactly blame any young woman for having a wary view of men and relationships that is so far removed from reality. Plus, reddit's anti-Valentine's Day circlejerk isn't really helping.
> Of course, the antagonism /r/srssucks dishes out isn't exactly helpful either. It's just as toxic, and utterly fails to see the troubled musings of youth for exactly what they are. It misdiagnoses a very common habit (encouraged, let's be honest, by a lot of popular culture) to think the worst of the opposite sex with feminist-led misandry of all things. Which is so far off the mark... I don't even. That they seem to be engaging in the same sort of "think the worst of the opposite sex" behavior, ironically, goes totally over their heads.
So I spend time on this website tackling this exact thing very thing, except from the other end - the neckbeard/fedora/friendzone/niceguy thing on the male side.
The thing is, NOBODY wants to say "yes, that's [social phenomenon] and it sucks!" to THOSE guys. They just shit on them, call them entitled misogynists wallowing in their male privilege, declare that their male tears make good lube, and move the fuck on, confident that this adolescent proto-redpiller has been taken down a notch.
But of course this woman with a shitty fucking view of men gets cheered on and reinforced and encouraged and told that she ~finally gets it~.
It drives me fucking nuts.
> The thing is, NOBODY wants to say "yes, that's [social phenomenon] and it sucks!" to THOSE guys. They just shit on them, call them entitled misogynists wallowing in their male privilege, declare that their male tears make good lube, and move the fuck on, confident that this adolescent proto-redpiller has been taken down a notch.
Yeah a lot of people of every possible stripe want patience, understanding and tolerance for their own problems AND ALSO the prerogative to be as viciously hostile, hateful and presumptuous towards anyone they want.
It's sad cause the people who think it's so great when you're expressing sympathy for them are the same people who will flip their shit on you as soon as you express sympathy for someone they want to hate.
If you're someone who thinks, hey, what if everybody treated everybody else like a human being, well, you're just SOL.
>Yeah a lot of people of every possible stripe want patience, understanding and tolerance for their own problems AND ALSO the prerogative to be as viciously hostile, hateful and presumptuous towards anyone they want.
I'm kind of astonished to hear this from you of all people. Maybe a little bit of self-reflection wouldn't go amiss, hm?
> Maybe a little bit of self-reflection wouldn't go amiss, hm?
Hahahahahahahahaha, incredible.
Forget it rasta, it's redditown.
Oh, you think that advice was ironic because I'm openly aggressive to people I dislike? Yeah, I am. But I'm not the one preaching love and tolerance and singing "kumbayah", am I? My actions are consistent, your actions are self-serving and hypocritical.
God I'm going to write today into a one-act and call it the Fundamental Attribution Follies.
I'm going to record a video of a guy fellating himself and call it "rastapastapanda: a journey of discovery."
>I'm going to record a video of a guy fellating himself and call it "rastapastapanda: a journey of discovery."
Wow, the "I'm kind of astonished to hear this from you of all people" was kind of questionably familiar for someone I don't know anything about, but, you know, not worth bringing up?
But this just now, yeah, that got weird.
>Wow, the "I'm kind of astonished to hear this from you of all people" was kind of questionably familiar for someone I don't know
Well, I imagine you'll recognize my username from this point on, won't you? :)
Yeah, but I don't think beanfiddler was the one justifying it.
The bitterness that lead to those posters in /r/srswomen is exactly the kind of bitterness that creates /r/theredpill.
It's just sad. Understandable how it came about, but not justified.
So, both you and beanfiddler are right, IMO.
Except that the way we talk about it (among the rest of us in the peanut gallery) is way different.
The response to any "ermergerd friendzone/TRP/fedoraneckbeard" stuff isn't "it seems benign, but let's discuss why they feel that way", it's to be openly critical and hostile, make accusations of misogyny, and dismiss them as immature little pricks.
Even to the extent that we are being critical of the original poster, people are going out of their way to decry any personal criticism of her looks or personality (unlike criticism of her spear counterparts).
And beenfiddler does it to.
She says this post was "pretty benign" and then defends her credentials on the issue of bitterness by saying "well, I discuss why young men might become misogynist."
Bullshit.
Speaking of bitter, isn't it pretty funny the largest/fastest growing thread on SRD on Valentine's day is a SRSS meet up? :)
There are a bunch of SRSters here too. Let's not dismiss the lonely legbeards.
DAE /u/TAKEitTOrCIRCLEJERK is an MRA?!
Uh, I have actually spent quite a lot of time talking about the social incentives for young men to turn to misogyny and antagonistic models of relationships for their "world view."
My point is exactly that it's manifestations of the same phenomenon on both sides of the aisle, which makes the antagonism between the two groups particularly sad in a dark, semi-amusing way. They've drank the same koolaid, and they don't even realize it.
Although, I don't know if you're implying that I'm cheering her on. I'm really not. Which is why I say
> What it is ... is tragic, and shouldn't be encouraged.
Oh sorry, this wasn't directed at you. It was more of a generalized FUCK THIS DISCUSSION kinda thing.
Yes, pretty much. If I had a TL;DR for drama such as this, it would be that.
It's funny to me that your apparent defense is that you treat the men who fall into the same trap as this young woman with less respect than you're asking for us to treat this woman.
You write of her: >"Sounded like, to me, just some girl or young woman upset about the transactional / adversarial model of gender interaction that is more common than not in high school and college -- especially if you spend more time thinking about having relationships than actually having one."
Fair enough, her viewpoint is justifiable based on her experiences and exposure to beliefs.
>"I don't exactly blame any young woman for having a wary view of men and relationships that is so far removed from reality."
And you can't hold a young person responsible for not knowing about adult relationships, so even if what she said comes across as paranoid and even sexist/misandrist, it's okay because her view (while not actually fair) is based on her perceptions. Of course you would consider her post benign and misinformed rather than sexist, abusive, or mean.
>I have actually spent quite a lot of time talking about the social incentives for young men to turn to misogyny and antagonistic models of relationships for their "world view."
But when a young man is immature or misinformed, you're quick to diagnose him with misogyny.
Fun times.
It's also funny to me that when the above poster said "I spend time criticizing the opposite side of this (the men)" your response in your own justification is "I too criticize men" while considering this bullshit from a woman "benign."
Not to put too fine a point on it, but that's some bullshit.
>neckbeard/fedora/friendzone/niceguy thing on the male side
That's a pretty big strawman of this:
>You're feelings are valid. What you're noticing is toxic masculinity - the way in which boys and young men are conditioned to express their gender roles as sexually aggressive, emotionally distant, physically combative, "real men" - and it's ability to hurt women, gender non-conformists, and ultimately, men themselves.
Are you telling me that this isn't true? Who the fuck do you think came up with "fedora'd neckbeards"? It sure as fuck wasn't srs. It was people like redpillers, going on about "white knights" and manginas, who make up the subs you so frequently defend, in your own little way. In fact, everything here confirms what that comment you're strawmaning says... and it drives me fucking nuts that you don't understand that.
And you know what though, I think you're right about srsers using shit like that and disparaging people on the way they look. It's an easy thing to rationalize, but it's wrong any way you look at it.
Well you're lucky I refreshed before I responded! I wouldn't've caught your edit.
>>You're feelings are valid. What you're noticing is toxic masculinity - the way in which boys and young men are conditioned to express their gender roles as sexually aggressive, emotionally distant, physically combative, "real men" - and it's ability to hurt women, gender non-conformists, and ultimately, men themselves.
>Are you telling me that this isn't true?
In general, I don't take issue with that. I think it's imperfect, but whatever, everything's imperfect.
>Who the fuck do you think came up with "fedora'd neckbeards"? It sure as fuck wasn't srs.
Nah it was circlebroke, not TRP. TRP is trying to appeal to those fedora'd neckbeards and they understand the honey/vinegar principle. I'm not denying that men certainly have the capacity to gender police each other though.
>who make up the subs you so frequently defend, in your own little way
lol wut
Good gracious do I love being called MRA. Almost as much as I love being called SRS. It's so funny to me.
>In fact, everything here confirms what that comment you're strawmaning says... and it drives me fucking nuts that you don't understand that.
No, here's what I'm saying, and maybe I was unclear so I'll try again.
If a woman posts in SRSWomen with a problem about gender roles (especially a young student, like in this example) there are going to be any number of people who say "yeah, that sucks!" and "yeah, it's because of [social phenomenon]!" and "yeah, your feelings are totally valid!"
If a man posts anywhere with a problem about gender roles, you're MUCH more likely to see a 'jerk in prime about how he's acting entitled to women's affection, or how he's being self-involved instead of having empathy, or how his standards are probably too high, or how his problem is part of the patriarchy and instead of complaining he should be self-reflective about how he contributes to it (<---- that was said to me last week), etc etc. I can cite those sources, too.
> Good gracious do I love being called MRA
DAE /U/TAKEitTOrCIRCLEJERK IS LE MRA!?!?!
/popcorn
>good gracious do I love being called MRA
I wouldn't call you a mra but you're right on the thin line in the way you view gender issues. It's always the veneer of rationality, as if you're giving the benefit of the doubt which at first seems sincere, but after a while becomes what it really is (which I'm not completely sure what it is, you're really attached to complaining about how people react the friend zone, I'd even call it an obsession of sorts).
>If a man posts anywhere with a problem about gender roles, you're MUCH more likely to see a 'jerk in prime about how he's acting entitled to women's affection
Why has this never happened to me? It happened once on a feminist facebook page, but I was quickly defended by other feminists, ones more radical than myself. And then it was only the silly and immature response of "what about the menz" when I was talking about legitimate issues men face - which more than 50 other feminists agreed with me on. I've posted and talked about the problems men face many times with multiple srsers, who often come up with things I didn't even think of, such as the idea that making fun of spermjacking can be seen as making fun of rape (an srs moderator told me this, not just a user) or that homeless men have been discarded in society, a society that doesn't care about them (once again, another srs moderator).
In fact, I've just written not one but two essays on stereotype threat and how men are adversely effected by the gender roles they face, when it comes to teaching and picking jobs that are seen as more feminine, or the embracing of violence in our media, and received an A on both papers. This for me invalidates all the complaints about how academia and feminist teachers don't care about men. My psychology professor, who is clearly a radical feminist, has made a point at saying that anti-rape campaigns should target both men and women. This is something that the people you're constantly defending wouldn't even believe is possible.
I really don't even know what you're complaining about right now. Where do you think these gender roles come from? How do you think they adversely effect men? Do you not see the constant "friend zone" and expectations of reciprocity as selfish behavior? Are you simply complaining to cast doubt on one group without coming up with solutions yourself?
>I wouldn't call you a mra but you're right on the thin line in the way you view gender issues. It's always the veneer of rationality, as if you're giving the benefit of the doubt which at first seems sincere, but after a while becomes what it really is (which I'm not completely sure what it is, you're really attached to complaining about how people react the friend zone, I'd even call it an obsession of sorts).
Well, this hurts my feelings a little bit. But I understand where you're coming from.
I think a lot of the framing of gender issues is tough for young men to get past. Frankly, I think that wall is totally unsurprising, but I also think it's not the worst thing on earth. On top of that, though, the not my job to educate you barrier is... well, someone has to educate. And if it's not you, it's me.
Wrt the friendzone thing, I do comment on it a bunch, but only because I think that awkward, lonely, frustrated young men either get a. Really really shitty advice or b. no advice at all. I think the way young women discuss boys like that (aside from being full of vitriol) is misguided, and I think the men who wait for them with open arms tend to be misogynistic as fuck.
There is a middle ground there. I think places like SRSWomen swing and miss on it often, and I think too often the "next place they go" is a place like seduction.
(will complete this comment later, feel free to respond to this part though)
> Well, this hurts my feelings a little bit
I don't mean to, I still have a lot of respect for you, but that's why I'm so willing to tell you what I really think, and I think you're overly attached to the side of this issue in a way that doesn't actually make sense.
>the not my job to educate you barrier is...
I can agree with this but as someone who has tried to educate people and failed multiple times I don't mind people that have completely given up, nor do I blame them. I think there's a saying that says, "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink." I've tried being an asshole, I've tried humor, I've tried reaching out rationally, none of these things seem to work on here on reddit at least. It's very frustrating.
>awkward, lonely, frustrated young men
This isn't an excuse for being a misogynist. I'm not awkward, but I am lonely, and I have baggage from a very fucked up marriage that has left me completely alone, yet I've managed to not become a redpiller or hate women as a group. I know the kinds of fucked up things certain women can do, I've experienced it all first hand. Yet, I also understand that there is two sides to every story, and I know that you cannot generalize a group of people by the actions of an individual, or even a group of individuals from within another group.
There really isn't any middle ground here. Being a misogynist is not the answer to being alone, and if someone is being a misogynist, I have no problem telling them that.
>I don't mean to, I still have a lot of respect for you,
blush
>but that's why I'm so willing to tell you what I really think, and I think you're overly attached to the side of this issue in a way that doesn't actually make sense.
I dunno... to me, no one (NO ONE, I MEAN TO TELL YOU, LIKE FOUR PEOPLE TOTAL) are willing to get on these kids' level about a lot of things. So I'm attached to it because I feel like I occasionally provide a service that few people do.
>I can agree with this but as someone who has tried to educate people and failed multiple times I don't mind people that have completely given up, nor do I blame them. I think there's a saying that says, "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink." I've tried being an asshole, I've tried humor, I've tried reaching out rationally, none of these things seem to work on here on reddit at least. It's very frustrating.
You know what I do? This is literally a good two-thirds of my secret. Just never use any jargon. Ever. Don't say "misogyny". Definitely do not say "misandry." Don't say privilege. Have these conversations at their bare-minimum level, even if it requires five words instead of two sometimes.
To the guys I try to talk to (and to everyone, see: the overton window) framing is EVERYTHING. And it is functionally helpful to talk to these guys in "their own language" for a while, at least until they get over their "hurt".
>There really isn't any middle ground here. Being a misogynist is not the answer to being alone, and if someone is being a misogynist, I have no problem telling them that.
And related to what I said above... if someone is from TRP, they're being an active, aggressive misogynist. If you're talking about fedora neckbeards, odds are that they're (at best) passive misogynists, passed on some shitty shit from our culture.
That manifests in a lot of bullshit (and often personal and frustrating) ways for young men, and SOMEONE being at least a vague voice of reason for them is important, IMO.
> This isn't an excuse for being a misogynist.
It seems like this was the point of the first comment he made. Women say shitty things about men and it's excused because they're young and don't know better. Young men get frustrated and say something shitty about women and they're a misogynist. You did the same thing here. Are you calling out the girl in the other post? How about the people talking about how shitty groups of guys are?
>Let's not dismiss the lonely legbeards
Is it hypocrisy for you to comment on this when you make comments like that?
I don't know how it would be. I'm pointing out the double standard held by the other person. My own views/habits aren't really relevant.
The other comment was directed at an SRSer making a joke about lonely antisrsers. I was mostly just flipping the comment. Most SRSers are men, so it's just a fun flip on the term neckbeard.
Internet history isn't always something easy so I can't say your wrong about who came up the the "fedora'd neckbeards" stereotypes. However, internet feminists have been using the imagery heavily, I'd say more heavily then anyone else. I can see why, assuming the only people who think they're wrong or silly are fedora'd neckbeards must be a comforting thought.
If you're just defending feminists by saying "redpillers do it too". Really? You're comparing feminists to TRPers as a defense?
On a side note I've noticed that feminists have been using the word neckbeard less in favor using dudebro. See here for example. I've heard some people argue that "neckbeard" it's body shaming, perhaps that's why. But the interesting thing is that they haven't changed the underlying stereotypes. So you have feminists running around calling people dudebros and then going to on the say that they're fat, anti-social virgins.
>internet feminists have been using the imagery heavily
Yeah, I can agree with that. Shit, I've used it myself in the past, but I stopped maybe two years ago when I realized that it was a disparagement about the way a person looks, which isn't a rational response at all.
>If you're just defending feminists by saying "redpillers do it too".
I'm not defending anyone doing it actually, regardless of where they fall, I'm simply pointing out a strawman right here and now in this conversation, one that has been used again and again to deflect against legitimate criticism.
> I've heard some people argue that "neckbeard" it's body shaming
Around the time I first found SRS, when I was still just a reddit troll, they made a rule against using it because of that specifically.
>n going to on the say that they're fat virgins
I've never seen this. Ever.
>I'm not defending anyone doing it actually, regardless of where they fall, I'm simply pointing out a strawman right here and now in this conversation, one that has been used again and again to deflect against legitimate criticism.
Thank you for not defending it. However, I don't think this:
>They just shit on them, call them entitled misogynists wallowing in their male privilege, declare that their male tears make good lube, and move the fuck on, confident that this adolescent proto-redpiller has been taken down a notch.
is a strawman of how feminists act. An exaggeration perhaps, if nothing else I'm not sure if I seen a post with all those elements and nothing else. But I don't think it's a strawman.
>I've never seen this. Ever.
Fat and virgin are common neckbeard stereotypes. I mentioned those two things because they're so obviously in direct opposition to the caricature most people have in their head when they think of "dudebros."
>call them entitled misogynists wallowing in their male privilege, declare that their male tears make good lube
Let's look at this for example. These are not the same thing, they aren't even in the same catagory. It's very likely that a proto-redpiller is being misogynistic, and calling him that is not the same thing as saying you bath in male tears (which has always struck me as an attempt to be super edgy but comes across as sociopathic).
These are two fundamentally different things, one which is likely true and is a valid criticism (where the strawman comes in) and the other which is wrong and very weird (who revels in the suffering of others intentionally?).
Yes, TITRC combined a few feminist different insults into one. They're real insults.
>who revels in the suffering of others intentionally?
The sort of people who proclaim "I bath in your male tears" and print "I ♥ Misandry" T-Shirts?
Saying a person has privilege they haven't examined isn't an insult, and claiming it is or using it as one are both a strawman of what it really means.
>In other words, she's reacting to a norm that isn't a norm, but it's talked about as if it's a norm in that specific context -- young adulthood (and teenage years).
Does it surprise you? Look at all the responses she got in SRS of people "confirming" exactly what she said.
"Oh yeah, guys are pigs, that's toxic masculinty for ya... always trying to expand their male privilege and shit... better just turn lesbo".
>Of course, it's understandable when you're young
In the srssucks thread... I actually tried giving her a serious response... but she didn't answer. So I guess she's already convinced.
>Of course, the antagonism /r/srssucks dishes out isn't exactly helpful either.
Well, not really... but it's never really intended to actually reach the person. And as I said, once she showed up there, at least for my self... I tried having an honest discussion.
I don't think the context of the opposition is really helpful. It's kind of like the red pill: she's identified gender stereotypes. She's identified that they kind of suck. But then she errs and thinks they're true most of the time, and uses them to form opinions of the opposite gender before she gets to know someone.
If someone starts from the premise that the practice of identifying gender stereotypes is shitty (which is what I see /r/srssucks doing 90% of the time when they go off on yet another anti-sociology or anti-feminist screed), what's going to come out is just as much gibberish is whatever they're replying to. That's kind of the point.
I'm not saying that you in particular have nefarious goals. I'm saying the entire tenor of /r/srssucks, particularly their "sociological observations aren't real" circlejerking, isn't helpful in the slightest.
This sort of drama is why I was involved, years back, in antiSRS, and also why I left it.
>I don't even
I do!
> In other words, she's reacting to a norm that isn't a norm, but it's talked about as if it's a norm in that specific context -- young adulthood (and teenage years).
Probably doesn't help to have an echo chamber to go to for advice these days. I know I'd be a terrible mess if I had one like that. Getting that taste of reality and knowing it's not a norm would be more helpful. And kinda hard to get from real life or online, it seems.