Is it okay to not want to date trans women? /r/Trollxchromosomes Debates (np.reddit.com)
SubredditDrama
89 ups - 41 downs = 48 votes
194 comments submitted at 18:03:36 on Feb 14, 2014 by bluemayhem
Is it okay to not want to date trans women? /r/Trollxchromosomes Debates (np.reddit.com)
SubredditDrama
89 ups - 41 downs = 48 votes
194 comments submitted at 18:03:36 on Feb 14, 2014 by bluemayhem
I'm not a violent person, but hypothetically I would be far more likely to act violently if I found out my partner was lying to me about being trans after sex than I would be if they told me before. That logic just doesn't compute with me.
Also if everyone is entitled to their own sexual preferences, what gives trans people this inviolable right to have sex with people who don't want to have sex with trans people? And why would a trans person want to have sex with someone who doesn't want to have sex with trans people?
ETA: It appears the mods have tagged all of /u/passivelyaggressiver's posts in /r/TrollXChromosomes with the tag "Disclaimer: I have a penis".
> And why would a trans person want to have sex with someone who doesn't want to have sex with trans people?
You will never get an answer to that, i have tried many times to ask people arguing in favour of hiding their past and never once has one of them gave me an answer to that question other than doubling down on me being the immoral one.
I think part of it is because they want to retain their identity as trans but live and be treated as a "real woman" or "real man" ie cis as they think of themselves as that. And it's difficult for them to understand or accept that someone may be all for their rights as a trans person and still not want to fuck them for their body or their history.
There are many, many litmus tests people use while choosing their mates. No one likes knowing there's a specific thing about themselves that most people don't prefer. See: men of below average height. It makes them feel judged even if it is truly not a personal judgement, and given their recent and flagrant oppression and derision in society it's not unsurprising that continually being rejected for this thing fucking stings---especially when 99% of the time it's people volunteering that they wouldn't want to sleep with you even if sex wasn't on the table with them to begin with.
I don't think it necessarily excuses the way they view the situation but I can empathize with their perspective on the matter. shrug
Rule number one: No one is ever obligated to be attracted to anyone else. Socially awkward males, overweight females and the trans community all seem to have trouble with this one.
As if there are no overweight males out there who have a problem with people not being attracted to them...
Body acceptance and all the other movements are very gynocentric...
particularly the Men Going Their Own Way movment
It's only a few people from all of those demographics who feel entitled for people to be attracted to them. For instance in regards to the "trans community", whatever that refers to, it's not as if there is some kind of consensus among trans people that people are obligated to be attracted to them, it's only a few people you'll find holding that view.
Of course you are correct. I felt no need to explicitly state this since it is inherent to any generalization.
Well yeah I guess it could be seen as a redundant comment on my part, but "trans community" is often used a term to just group all trans people together, the same way people talk about problems in the "black community" or the "gay community" when they aren't talking about an actual community of people.
Just consider me appreciative of your reasonable tone.
I appreciate your appreciation
> the "trans community", whatever that refers to
It refers to a group of cisgendered teenage girls on tumblr who think they're helping trans* people by being dicks on their behalf.
Trans woman here, many of us realize that your typical cisheteronormative male isn't going to want to date us. It's a lot of the reason I hate my life and idealize suicide every day.
What I do think is transphobic is being attracted to a trans girl, finding out they're trans, and suddenly refusing to acknowledge that physical attraction. That to me sounds unquestionably like transphobia and that's what most trans women are trying to get after when we talk about men being transphobic in these kind of situations.
Hey, serious moment here. If you are thinking of suicide, please get help. It doesn't need to be professional help, if you can't afford/don't want that, but please get something. There are lots of free places that do suicide prevention, like sw here on reddit. I can't imagine what you are going through, but it's not worth suicide. I promise.
Meh, I'm safe enough. I've vented my dumb little heart out for years and it's never gotten better, I don't think there's anything anyone can say at this point
I remember a week or so ago when I got attacked for not being attracted to transfolk. I just... am not attracted to them. No hate, no disrespect. They just don't get my capillaries vasodilated due to arousal and released nitric oxide.
SJW version: No woman is obligated to find a man attractive. However, a man may not find a woman unattractive for any reason or else he's objectifying her.
These are the same people that would probably call it rape if a guy lied and manipulated a woman to get her into bed.
What ever happened in that case of a Muslim(?) man who claimed to be Jewish to sleep with a Jewish woman and when she found out he lied about his religion, they charged him with rape?
I think it was appealed and struck down, but I couldn't tell you with certainty.
I think they charged him with "violent rape" and he pled down to "rape by deception" got sentenced to 18months and served 9.
Oh. :|
I'm not saying it's rape, I'll leave my opinion 100% unknown on that part as obviously it's unwelcome! but still being deceptive to get laid is a pretty shitty/stupid thing to do.
I'm fairly certain you would know when you had sex. MTF doesn't really give you a vagina. I remember reading this augustin Burroughs book and he was talking about a post op he knew and it has like there was just this cavity there. Then there's all the weird cleaning and self-lubing they need.
Just saying it would be hard to "accidentally" a M2F post op.
I'm sure they do a decent job at constructing a vagina for MTF but I also find it hard to believe someone wouldn't notice at all. Though there could be instances of someone who never really learned much about vagina's, never seen one before, or very sexually repressed when growing up, I could see not being able to notice that they are MTF. Again though, I have never seen what a vagina of a MTF looks like so I don't really know how well they may or may not look, but the lubrication and general feeling of the inside of one surely would give it away.
It depends, but you can definitely not notice, some post op trans women have vaginas that you wouldn't be able to tell they weren't born with, and some are also self lubricating. People have had sex with trans women before without realizing.
> I'm not a violent person, but hypothetically I would be far more likely to act violently if I found out my partner was lying to me about being trans after sex than I would be if they told me before.
I seriously don't get this attitude. I heard the exact same thing from a radio personality yesterday, and I still don't get it. What is it about trans people that incites violence? I understand being upset, but violent? It's not like you caught a disease your partner didn't warn you about.
The fact that you were upvoted (+16 as of now) kind of make me sympathize with the trans side on this issue. I mean, you never hear someone saying, "If I found out my girlfriend was cheating/lying/omitting certain details about her past, I'd be far more likely to act violently" and then being praised for such attitude.
You people want trans girls to be upfront on one hand, but don't rule out violence when dealing with them on the other. Come on, now. It's not hard to see why trans people would be afraid to "come out" when this is the prevailing opinion.
I never said I would be violent. I'm not a violent person, I stated that. But if trans people are so worried about violence against them, then they need to tell prospective partners before they have sex with them. That's why I created the hypothetical, if I was predisposed to violence, I would be far far more likely to react violently if my partner told me they were trans after the fact than if they told me before we took that step.
Not speaking hypothetically, I myself am predisposed to wait a considerable amount of time in a relationship before having sex (like to the point where children would have been discussed extensively). If sex happens and then they told me they were trans, I would feel incredibly betrayed and would probably just immediately sever all contact with the individual.
> hypothetically I would be far more likely to act violently
It's not like the possibility of violence will make a trans person any more comfortable to disclose their past to people. But also, I wasn't talking about you in particular; I was talking about the attitude of treating violence against trans people as fair game in case of deception, which seems to be very common.
> But if trans people are so worried about violence against them, then they need to tell prospective partners before they have sex with them.
What amazes me is that you're still treating violence as a sensible, if not justified, reaction against trans deception. It'd be like me saying, "If a woman doesn't want to get beat up by her husband, she better behave herself".
Let me ask you this: is there any hypothetical situation where you would see violence as a possible (if not understandable) outcome if one were dealing with a woman?
[Edit: Spelling.]
>What amazes me is that you're still treating violence as a sensible, if not justified, reaction against trans deception. It'd be like me saying, "If a woman doesn't want to get beat up by her husband, she better behave herself".
He didn't. At all. What he said was basically, the rationale behind non-disclosure until after sex for safety reasons makes no sense. If you're scared a guy would get violent if you disclosed before sex, wouldn't that type of guy just be more violent of you disclosed after sex? Whereas a lot of the guys who would get violent being disclosed to after sex would very possibly not be violent if told beforehand, they'd just say some mean shit and dump you.
> What he said was basically, the rationale behind non-disclosure until after sex for safety reasons makes no sense.
Nope, nope, nope. That wasn't his argument. What he said was:
> I'm not a violent person, but hypothetically I would be far more likely to act violently if I found out my partner was lying to me about being trans after sex than I would be if they told me before.
He wasn't talking about whether or not disclosing before sex makes more sense; he was talking about how someone like him could resort to violence once he finds out, and why that's enough reason for a transsexual to never try to pass as a woman.
My point of contention is this attitude where transsexual deception justifies one's hypothetical violence under the pretense that "hey, they asked for it". If he wants to discuss whether or not transsexuals should disclose their sexual background before sex, I'm all for it. But don't come with this "...or else" attitude. Don't act like the possibility of violence is a good-enough argument.
For what it's worth, I agree completely with the point you're making: it's only fair to disclose such things before sex.
Right, so the "I" in that situation wasn't him. Like, "If I were the type of person to get violent over that." Seriously, your complaints are beyond invalid, they're almost maliciously facetious.
Then tag me as a troll if that makes you feel better.
You're a moron.
>What amazes me is that you're still treating violence as a sensible, if not justified, reaction against trans deception.
yeah okay
I never excused violence of any kind or said violence of any kind is okay. But you can't deny there are people in this world who are predisposed to violence, violent acts like battery are already illegal, but that doesn't stop people from acting violently. All I'm saying is that if trans people want to minimize the violence they could potentially face from violent people who don't want to have sex with/be in a relationship with trans people, it would make sense to tell prospective partners before and not after sex, but you are being intentionally dense and purposefully misrepresenting my argument.
So tell me, is there any hypothetical situation where you would see violence as a possible (if not understandable) outcome if one were dealing with a woman?
I'm not sure your question even makes sense in this context. Violence is always a "possible" outcome of almost any situation. That's what possible means. Being abducted by aliens is also a possible outcome.
So what point are you trying to prove seeing as how you responded to him by asking the same near non-sequitur twice?
I was trying to find out what his perceived threshold for violence is when it comes to women and compare it with his hypothetical "trans deception" scenario.
> I'm not sure your question even makes sense in this context.
Then maybe you should wait for an answer to see where I am going with my line of questioning before calling it "non-sequitur".
It looks like he said something that slightly disagreed with a stance you hold, and you're trying to desperately hard to find evidence that he's a transphobe.
No its really not that relevant because you continue to ignore or willfully misrepresent the points I've been making. I never said any violence was ever okay. But I am saying that no matter what, violent people will act violently. And logically, a violent person who doesn't want to have sex with a trans person will be more likely to react violently if their partner has sex with them and then tells them they are trans than if they tell them before sex happens. But you will probably ignore this post like you've ignored the last 2. Res tagged as a troll
It IS relevant. I thought I could show you where I'm coming from once you had answered my question, but if you're not going to give me the benefit of the doubt, fine. I'll go ahead and make my point without your help.
Has anybody here read To the Heart of the Storm, by Will Eisner? It's a great book that draws heavily from Eisner's own life experiences as an American Jew in the 1930s. At a certain point in the book, the young protagonist, who has been teased all his life for being Jewish, befriends a girl whose family is very pro-Hitler (this is before WWII). He gets invited to a barbecue where her relatives rave about the glorious German-Austrian unification and such.
She invites him again to a family gathering. His parents ask him if she knows he's Jewish, and he replies: "Why do you obsess so much about being Jewish? It's not like she asked anything!" You can guess how this story ends.
I'm not trying to equate Antisemitism with transphobia, but I hope it's not hard to see how a Jewish person would feel uneasy about advertising their ethnic background to anyone when seemingly level-headed people spout things such as:
> I'm not a violent person, but hypothetically I would be far more likely to act violently if I found out my partner was lying to me about being Jewish after sex than I would be if they told me before. That logic just doesn't compute with me.
> Also if everyone is entitled to their own sexual preferences, what gives Jewish people this inviolable right to have sex with people who don't want to have sex with Jewish people? And why would a Jew want to have sex with someone who doesn't want to have sex with Jewish people?
You can't say that and not expect a Jewish person to feel uneasy around you. In fact, switch "Jewish" with any other seemingly invisible characteristic and see if the rule still stands. "But I'm only talking about sexual preference, not Antisemitism!" Then guess what, buddy: there are better ways to make your preferences clear without having to treat someone's ethnic or sexual background as an offense punishable by "violence".
It all boils down to fear, people. If the threshold for violence is this low, then it's not unreasonable to conclude that the transsexual has probably more to pay for being open than a straight woman, which in turn explains why they'd rather be perceived as women (just like Eisner's character would rather be perceived as another gentile). That's how abhorrent this situation is: it actually feels safer to deceive than to be truthful.
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>>>>>>I'm not a violent person
>>>>>You people want trans girls to be upfront on one hand, but don't rule out violence when dealing with them on the other.
>>>>I never said I would be violent. I'm not a violent person, I stated that.
>>>I wasn't talking about you in particular
>>>What amazes me is that you're still treating violence as a sensible, if not justified, reaction against trans deception.
>>I never excused violence of any kind or said violence of any kind is okay.
>So tell me, is there any hypothetical situation where you would see violence as a possible (if not understandable) outcome if one were dealing with a woman?
>I was trying to find out what his perceived threshold for violence is
Come on. Reading isn't that hard.
His opinion is very prevalent on places like Reddit, but it's still his. Am I supposed to be arguing with the hivemind only?
Perceived threshold for violence? Are you just asking him to come up with different hypotheticals? What does that prove? You can come up with literally any situation. I can come up with a hypothetical person that would react violently towards cisgendered women but not trans women. Your question doesn't have any relevance to the point he was making, you're trying to quibble over rhetoric and ignoring what he was actually saying.
A lot of guys won't be honest for fear of being labeled a bigot, but I'm very honest and I'll tell you why (a lot of) guys don't want to fuck trans women. It's not that I think it would make me gay, it's not that I think I'm going to get a disease, it's that I just had sex with a surgically split open penis, that was then stuffed back inside a male (biologically speaking) body. That is revolting. Neovaginas have to be stretched with dildos daily otherwise it'll heal. The body recognizes it as a WOUND (which, strictly speaking, it is), and I just fucked it. Few other things make me want to barf as much as the thought of having sex with a vagina constructed from a sliced-up cock.
> Neovaginas have to be stretched with dildos daily otherwise it'll heal.
Some may do, but that is certainly not true for all
Do you have a source? I'm pretty sure it comes part and parcel with the surgery.
I came across this
> Our recommended dilation schedule is as follows:
Week 1 – Week 3 4 times a day
Week 4 – Week 6 3 times a day
Week 7 – Week 9 2 times a day
Week 10 – Week 12 1 times a day
Week 13 forward - Dilation or intercourse a minimum of once or twice a week for the rest of your life.
http://www.thetransgendercenter.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=75&Itemid=145
So it goes down to once or twice a week at least, but it's not stretching with a dildo daily, it's using a dilator once or twice a week at least after the initial few months.
Welp, that's enough internet for me today.
Still, once a week is a lot. It goes back to my point about the body recognizing it as a wound. That, to me, is revolting. That is why I would not sleep with a trans woman. I'm not saying this to be mean, but the comment I responded to was asking why men wouldn't want to sleep with a trans woman. I didn't see a lot of honest answers, so I thought it would be helpful to give an actual opinion.
It also says "Dilation OR intercourse a minimum of once or twice a week". If they're having regular sex, dilation may not even be necessary. It doesn't heal up or close over like a wound would though I don't think, the dilation is to keep it's size but it doesn't completely close over if you don't do it.
Ok sure, but as an honest answer from me I think seeing it as "revolting" or being one of the biggest things to make you want to throw up is an overreaction. Sure it may be a turn off for you and you really don't want to do it, but actually being disgusted seems too far, imho.
You do to get to dictate what I do or do not find disgusting. You are not me, and you don't get to tell me what I feel.
Yeah, and I personally think someone finding it disgusting is over the top. I'm not telling you what you feel at all or trying to dictate it, I'm just saying I find that too far. There are plenty of other things where someone finds something disgusting and I think it's over the top to be actually disgusted by it. I didn't mean it as an attack or anything.
I mean earlier you said you spoke for a lot of guys when you said it was revolting, you weren't even just speaking for yourself.
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So you don't see anything wrong with purposefully being deceptive so someone can have sex or have a relationship? This isn't just a small lie either. I would be absolutely livid if someone did that to me.
Of course it's wrong.
>Also if everyone is entitled to their own sexual preferences, what gives trans people this inviolable right to have sex with people who don't want to have sex with trans people?
Okay, on one hand (the most important hand), you're correct. If a person doesn't want to have sex with someone with a penis or a vagina, or who used to have one of those, they shouldn't be tricked into it, and tricking them into it is wrong. Without question.
On the other hand (sort of. this is less important to the issue at hand, but important for understanding the problem, I think)... gay people have trouble coming out about their sexuality. I think trans people have it even harder. The idea that transsexuals exist is downright offensive to some people, especially if those people find themselves in a situation that compromises their own sexuality. Say a straight man meets a trans woman at a bar. The guy doesn't realize that the woman has a penis, and he starts chatting her up because he's attracted to her. Now, at any point, if this guy is particularly backwards, saying "I'm biologically male" could get her into some serious trouble in a big hurry.
Am I making sense?
But what happens if they go back to his/her place to hook up? I mean it isn't going to be a secret for long if things get physical. I mean some of those people in tht thread are acting like the guy will be less mad if they wait till things get serious/physical. I know personally if I was told up front, although I wouldn't peruse anything physical or a relationship, I really couldn't care less. But if they waited till after things got serious/physical I would be livid.
That's kind of the problem. I'm lucky enough to have parts that feel right for me. I'm also white, straight, American, and a dude, so I got lucky in a lot of ways. As such, I have no idea what it's like to live as a trans person, so I don't know the best way to deal with it. But even without the answer, I think it's just important that people are aware that it's a hard problem to face and there are nuances, and that people should try to be sympathetic to that.
edit: I think what I would do, in that situation, is try to turn him down without mentioning that I'm not biologically a woman. Just lose him, or something. But like I said... I don't know, because I've never even almost been in that position. And neither have you, probably.
I haven't, and while I can understand how difficult it must be to be the trans person in that situation, I also know how angry that would make me to be told after. It is well known that for many people that would be a deal breaker, so why would someone think that it is appropriate to deceive someone in that way? Respect is a two way street.
Also, the statistics about violence against trans people is well known, especially to those who are trans, isn't it logical to think that, without knowing someone's position on being with a trans person, that the odds of someone reacting harshly to being told the person they were in a relationship/intimate with are much higher if they find out after they are in a relationship/intimate?
I'm a gay male and feel the same way. Idc how much of a man you look like, I don't want a trans man. I have no problem with it, it's just not for me.
>I found out my partner was lying to me about being trans after sex
Where would they be lying to you ?
It would be lie of omission. It's naive to think that being trans wouldn't matter to the majority of people, even people that would still continue the relationship after finding out would probably want to know/discuss such a huge part of their partner's identity before having sex.
Where they claimed to be a female. They aren't, they are a male who has had an operation to become a female.
I would be absolutely livid if I was tricked into having sex with a MtF trans*, and would probably want to be violent as well. It is disingenuous, and anyone who thinks it isn't a big deal lives in a SJW fairy land. It is a huge deal.
> Where they claimed to be a female.
Where ? > They aren't, they are a male who has had an operation to become a female.
This operation succeeded.
And thus they are a MtF and not a female.
MtF are females.
Agree to disagree
However fucked up you would regard being "tricked", if you'd probably want to be violent that's really fucked up.
> "tricked"
Lol. Why is that in air quotes? Do you not think it is dishonest to represent yourself as cisgendered if you are transgendered?
It depends on the situation. The comment they were replying to was about sex but didn't specify the context of the sex. If it's a hook up or a one night stand, I don't think a post op trans woman is being purposefully dishonest if they don't say they are trans beforehand.
I am really just curious as to why tricked is written like that. Thanks for the reply.
ah ok, no worries
Well don't go around misrepresenting your gender.
I'm cis so I'm not talking about myself. Actually wanting to be violent is really fucked up
If I only wanted to date trans people, never asked people if they were cis or trans and acted violently if I found out I was dating cis people you would call me an asshole. If you really care about dating only cis people you should ask women with vaginas if they are cis or post-op trans.
I've already explained this further down the thread, but I never said any instance of violence was okay. You are putting words into my mouth. I just said re:trans people arguing waiting until after sex to tell their partner they are trans because of safety concerns, it makes no sense, if a person with violent tendencies who doesn't want to have sex with a trans person is in a relationship with a trans person who has not told them they are trans, logically it is far more likely that they will react violently to finding out their partner is trans after they have sex than if they found out before sex. Not saying any violence is ok, just saying logically, that argument does not make sense.
Which is why most trans* people disclose before sex. They have to disclose to prevent violence. Which is saddening because if you really don't want to date trans women or transsexual-not-transgender men you should ask.
a quick google search told me that it is estimated that .0004-.002% of the american population identify as trans, I would say in light of that along with your statement that most trans people disclose before sex, I feel like it would be perfectly reasonable to assume that if you have sex with a person, and they don't say anything about being trans beforehand, you can assume they aren't trans. It might not be fair, but the onus is on trans people to disclose their trans status before sex happens (I'm not saying trans people have to disclose, I'm saying that they can't expect their partner to ask them whether or not they are trans if their partner has no idea they might be trans, and if you don't know how your partner would react to finding out you were trans, it would be in your best interest to disclose before and not after sex) not for >99.998% of the population to ask every new potential sexual partner if they are trans or not. Personally, I could only see this coming up when talking about having kids (I personally wouldn't have sex before that) and if they told me they are incapable of reproducing, I would obviously ask why.
Some trans* people can have kids, like non-op for example. Still though. For one, there is a good amount of people who can't have kids. You have probably meet many people who can't have kids. You have to admit that asking people if they can have kids or not wouldn't be unreasonable right?
Well duh, I would talk to any potential sexual partner about kids before having sex with them, but that's just me. I'm just saying, whether its fair or not, it is unreasonable to expect every person who doesn't want to have sex with a trans person (hell, some people don't even know trans is even a thing) to ask every potential sexual partner if they are "cis" (I put that in quotation marks because I have never seen that term outside of certain subreddits and tumblr). And if a hetero-sexual person started having sex with a pre-op trans that hadn't disclosed, shit would hit the fan pretty quickly.
First of all, the "cis is a made up word" circlejerk is annoying: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisgender#Origins English has a word for everything.
> As for the origin, I just made it up. I just kept running into the problem of what to call non-trans people in various discussions, and one day it just hit me: non-trans equals cis. Therefore, cisgendered.
> Carl Buijs
I don't expect anybody to ask everyone if they're cis or trans but on the same token you shouldn't demand all post-op trans people wear a badge that says "I was born a boy/girl with a vagina/penis".
> but on the same token you shouldn't demand all post-op trans people wear a badge that says "I was born a boy/girl with a vagina/penis".
I said
>(I'm not saying trans people have to disclose, I'm saying that they can't expect their partner to ask them whether or not they are trans if their partner has no idea they might be trans, and if you don't know how your partner would react to finding out you were trans, it would be in your best interest to disclose before and not after sex)
Are you saying that trans people have no responsibility to disclose but should for their safety? Well I guess you got you wanted because that's how most trans people deal with relationships. And sometimes they still get targeted with transphobia, a blog targeting trans lesbians flagged a bunch of open trans lesbians on OkCupid.
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