Red Piller doesn't take a rape victim seriously. This goes as well as expected. (np.reddit.com)
SubredditDrama
43 ups - 14 downs = 29 votes
78 comments submitted at 02:21:45 on Aug 22, 2013 by billpika
Red Piller doesn't take a rape victim seriously. This goes as well as expected. (np.reddit.com)
SubredditDrama
43 ups - 14 downs = 29 votes
78 comments submitted at 02:21:45 on Aug 22, 2013 by billpika
I'm split on this. It's never a womens fault is she gets gets raped, but why is it not OK to tell women not to put themselves in situations that might increase that risk?
Because that would involve her sitting in a locked room, alone.
There are obviously some locations/situations that increase the probability of rape from occurring. Not just rape in fact, murder (Somalia, DR Congo) rape ( Egypt's war zones, India) theft ( Tourist zones). .. etc.
Most rapes in the US are by someone the victim knows - family, friends, acquaintances, SO's, spouses. The only way to "avoid" the vast majority of rapes is to not have any meaningful interactions with other human beings. Which is, of course, ridiculous.
And? Most car accidents aren't caused by alcohol, but "don't drink and drive" is still good advice.
I know this. Sorry, I only meant to provide examples of when it would work. reducing some rapes is better then none. I.E. Don't be a female reporter in Egypt right now. Don't be a western female tourist in India.
It is not great advice, but helping even 1 person might be worth warning them all.
no?
The problem is that women already know this. It's screamed at us from the moment we grow tits. And as a rape victim, it's really damaging to the way I and the people I told viewed my rape. Because he was a friend, and I was drunk, I thought it was my fault and didn't think to report it until after the statute of limitations had passed. And my mom still doesn't think I was "really" raped.
I agree that taking precautions is good, but right now it dominates the conversation and can lead to really twisted ideas about "real" rape and "deserving" it if someone's not careful enough.
Then when were too cautious of certain men were seen as bitches, and if were too friendly and end up raped its still our faults.
We just can't win either way..
Yep. The flip side of this whole "be careful, ladies" thing is the idea of Schrodinger's Rapist - that any man could be a rapist until proven otherwise. A woman wrote an essay basically saying this very thing. I have never seen an essay cause more weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth from a lot of the same men who would, under other circumstances, be champion victim-blamers.
We're not talking about rape in Egypt's war zones. We're talking about rape in the US. Something like 66-75% (can't remember exactly) of rapes are committed by someone close to the woman ((ex)-boyfriend/husband, acquaintance, friend, relatives). So how do you suggest women not put themselves in situations that increase that risk? 24/7 police chaperon for every woman? Sex segregation at birth?
>We're talking about rape in the US. Something like 66-75% (can't remember exactly) of rapes are committed by someone close to the woman ((ex)-boyfriend/husband, acquaintance, friend, relatives).
Isn't it the same (or higher) for murder?
I'm not trying to be difficult. Not every situation is the same. I was being extreme to provide a clear cut example.
Obviously, don't drink to excess around strangers
Stay away from the downtown and seedy areas of town after dark.
Don't wear a short skirt skirt or shot cleavage.
I was joking on that last one. Seriously. There should be a database that women should be able to access that should provide pointers. With the way the internet and math is available these days, I am sure someone could write a program like wolfram alpha that could help them stay safe.
I am not blaming, I know it sucks to be a woman and have to worry about men, I have two sister I had to protect. I am just saying, some "correct" advise should be welcome by women in favor of outright rejecting it and screaming than men should just not rape.
I see what you're saying, and I pretty much agree. It's never a problem to give women (or anyone for that matter) advice on how to avoid dangerous situations. For me, the problem arises when someone says "oh you got raped? Well you should have done XYZ so it's therefore your fault!"
Similarly, I would say that driving past midnight on New Year's is a pretty bad idea. But am I going to tell someone that it's their fault for getting hit by a drunk driver at that time? Heck no. The situation might have been avoided, sure, but 100% of the blame still lies on the attacker/driver/etc.
Hmm, you both say sane things and in agreement. Yet they hated him and loved you. Why?
They even accused the guy of victim blaming. That was weird.
Conjecture here: I think that a lot of people - women especially - are kind of fed up with the implication that rape victims can prevent rape. It's particularly galling when you add the vociferous backlash from some very vocal quarters against the recent push to teach men not to rape people. (Yes, men are raped as well, but not in the same numbers as women, and not very often by women. The majority of men who are raped are raped by other men.)
Women are conditioned from a very, very young age to be extremely careful - to use the buddy system in dark places, to be aware of their surroundings, to be careful about alcohol consumption (not to drink to excess or accept drinks from strangers). We're taught to meet for coffee to size someone up before allowing them to know where we live. We're told never to pick up hitchhikers, no matter how dire the circumstances appear. Women are extremely aware of what to do to minimize their risk factors. So when well-meaning people make lists of "what to do to prevent rape", it can be pretty exasperating, especially since teaching men not to rape people seems to be changing rape statistics in much more significant ways than telling young women not to show too much skin or be too flirtatious.
It's akin to telling people who have been broadsided by drunks not to drive after dark. Or telling an assault victim who got glassed at a bar not to be around drunk, violent people. You can't plan for stuff like that and you can't avoid life.
That's my take on it.
Alright look at it in a completely selfish self-serving way.
I'm assuming you like women and I'm assuming you like women who are comfortable with themselves as they tend to want to have sex more which I'm assuming you like.
So would you rather promote the ideology that she should protect herself while doing normal things or promote the idea people should be able to go out have fun and not be attacked.
> So would you rather promote the ideology that she should protect herself while doing normal things or promote the idea people should be able to go out have fun and not be attacked.
Why not both?
Because your still chastising the woman for her actions.
"You shouldn't have went out to a bar and danced" or something else fun she wanted to do.
Now instead of thinking that guy who attacked her is a dick she thinks she's wrong for having fun and that's one less fun loving woman who likes to go out.
But I am also chastising me for being fucking awful rapist assholes as well?
What are you talking about? This is classic victim blaming. Not only are actively blaming women for getting raped, you're making it sound as if every man is some sort of rape-machine just waiting to get triggered.
No.
Don't drive around town after 11pm in order to risk accidents by drunk drivers.
Don't swim with skarks in order to reduce shark bites.
It's only victim blaming if you say shit AFTER!
I.E.
You should not have been in that neighborhood at that time of night.
as opposed to. . .
You should stay away from this area at night.
Ok, then, but you're still being an asshole.
Sorry? If trying to prevent one rape makes me an asshole, then I wear this badge with honor.
You're not preventing rape with your advice. It just tells women that when they are in any of the situations or places you've described, it's their fault they got raped. "Didn't you warn them?!" Stupid women.
Sorry, but if you were right the middle east would be a rape free zone because they cover women head to toe....
IT's not, and your logic is well intentoned but unsound. Not only that but you can't seem to understand why your logic is unsound, nor do you seem to want too. And then to top it all off you make yourself out to be morally superior.
that is what makes you an asshole, not wanting to prevent rape.
You say these pointers as if these are new ideas and not advice that has been said thousands of times.
personal responsibility and regard for you surroundings don't real
No it wouldn't. Unless you think the probability of being raped in a library is the same as at an alleyway next to a nightclub, you don't think that either. Why would you even make such a comment?
Because it's simply a way of reducing women's freedom. In Afghanistan they tell women to cover their body and not go out alone or risk rape. Here we tell women not to party too hard or dress too "slutty" or risk rape. It's exactly the same thing, just a matter of degrees. Sexual assault is the price women pay for freedom. As someone else has pointed out, wearing revealing clothes ect has nothing to do with rape. Most rapes don't occur in a dark alley after a woman foolishly stumbles home alone drunk in a miniskirt, most rapes are committed by people they know and trust, and there isn't less rape in countries where women are covered head to foot.
Its because the focus is on the wrong place. Of course people should be careful, but that's a given anyway. Its a bit like saying to someone getting mugged in a bad neighborhood to avoid the neighborhood. Well yeah, but on a societal level we should focus on efforts to reduce those crimes . Otherwise it just leads to a culture of constant fear.
Why not focus on both the individuals as well as the society.
Why not try and stop the bleeding as well as prevent future gunshots?
It's done. There are self defense classes specifically for women, rape whistles, emergency buttons on college campuses, etc. Women are regularly taught how to protect themselves. We're told to constantly keep an eye on our drinks, only drink with people you trust. We're told to carry a weapon (mace, a knife, a gun, whatever) on us at all times.
The problem is when someone looks at a particular situation in retrospect and says, "Hmm, well you could have had your rape whistle on you!" or "Well golly, why'd you get drunk in the first place?" That's victim blaming, however subtle, and it does nothing but make the person you're talking to feel like you're calling them an idiot.
It also becomes a problem when a particular discussion is about changing culture to stop rape, and it's derailed with shit like "personal responsibility and regard for you surroundings don't real."
> That's victim blaming
Only after the fact. Saying, don't get drunk without a buddy system or some shit is not victim blaming, nor is it mitigating if they still get raped. It is just giving woman the best information possible so that they may be safe. That is all I mean.
Honestly, I may be naive in this, but I did not expect this negative reaction.
I'm not trying to be negative. I just really want you to understand what the complaints actually are regarding victim blaming and education on consent. Some people are, rightfully so, very defensive about the subject and take any off-hand advice to be victim blaming. Sometimes it is; sometimes it isn't. It depends on the situation.
Like I said, there is plenty of advice out there to help women prevent rapes that can reasonably be avoided. It's basically shoved down our throats as soon as we hit puberty. Many cases are not reasonably avoided, though. As someone else mentioned, most rapes aren't committed in a dark alley by a stranger. It's unreasonable to expect women to be distrustful of every person in their lives. That's why, if we want any more progress to be made, we need to focus on the perpetrator's side of the attack. We've already got victim education down to a science.
Sorry, I was unaware. I was just trying to be the protective big brother and I have obviously failed.
I'm guessing that was serious. Have an upvote for listening and trying to be a good guy :)
putting special restrictions on 52% of the population's movement and behavior is pretty unreasonable. And saying "well, that's just how it goes!" isn't fair either.
What is the point in saying she shouldn't have done X after the fact. There's always something you could have done in hindsight - dressed differently, taken a different route home, not hang out with certain people ect. It's irrelevant. There is no situation in which people won't turn around and place responsibility on something the woman should have done differently. You should have been a good girl and stayed at home.
> What is the point in saying she shouldn't have done X after the fact.
NOTHING. That's what I am saying! But what is the harm in using their story as a cautionary tale for future potential victims?
What would be the point in that since in retrospect there's always something in the victims behavior that could have been changed. It is the potential rapists who need to be given "cautionary tales". Of course we should always teach people to be responsible and take care of themselves. That's a given. Rape doesn't happen because women are irresponsible, it happens because rapists rape.
Because all this stuff is common sense and it's kinda insulting to tell a victim "oh, you should have _____" after a traumatic experience (especially when, in the majority of rape cases, that advice has no bearing). It'd be like saying to me "well, you shouldn't have parked your car in that neighborhood" after it got broken in to, despite me living in that neighborhood and not having enough money to move.
And even if you're just telling other people not to park in that neighborhood and using my situation as an example, it's still common sense in the first place and people are gonna wonder why you think they're idiots. The advice might be practical, but so is "make sure to wash behind your ears!"
> to tell a victim "oh, you should have _____" after a traumatic experience
This is our hang up. I am not advocating any of this AFTER, only before.
>and using my situation as an example, it's still common sense in the first place
And yet it still happens. . .
That's the point, it doesn't happen that often. Most rapists don't jump out of the bushes and attack the closest woman wearing a short skirt. In fact, most studies say even the jump out of the bushes type usually go for people who seem weak, not "slutty". Unless your advice is "don't trust anyone", it's hardly applicable. And if it is, that's p shitty advice
The idea is, you can never completely absolutely stop rape even by telling the victim to take precautions. Take women from the middle east for instance. They're covered in clothes from head to toe, don't drink, is always accompanied by a male (in some areas it is law for women to be chaperoned) and STILL manage to get raped. To absolutely stop rape through the victim taking precautions...women would have to have their rights impeded upon.
And the thing is, we're human. You cannot go through your entire life being so perfectly in control of your surroundings 24/7. This is why it is so insulting to people who are victim blamed. They could have pepper spray, taken classes, dressed from head to toe, even have a chastity belt and still be raped. For the ass response to be 'well maybe if the chastity belt was made of steel instead, this wouldn't have happened,' is enraging. It's like telling someone, 'hey if you didn't cook that night maybe you wouldn't have burned yourself by accident.' Well gee, some of us don't have the luxury of eating out every night, nor can we just magically not be hungry now can we? There is always something that could've been done, more, but it's not the woman's fault someone decided to violate her regardless what precautions she took.