Israel to erect pink-triangle monument to gays persecuted by Nazis. World War II experts estimate that 5,000 to 15,000 gay prisoners were sent to Nazi concentration camps. death rate of homosexuals in concentration camps may have been as high as 60%. (sdgln.com)

{ainbow}

288 ups - 30 downs = 258 votes

121 comments submitted at 00:55:28 on Aug 21, 2013 by FYoung

  • [-]
  • ShoehornWithTeeth
  • 61 Points
  • 03:59:11, 21 August

In response to the "pinkwashing" comments, according to Haaretz the memorial was suggested by Eran Lev, a "member of the municipal council from the Meretz party," a party who's platform includes an active and vocal push toward a peaceful two-state solution in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and has called on the Israeli government to freeze settlement expansion.

Also, in response to people who's first reaction to a holocaust memorial, any holocaust memorial, is a tactless accusation of political jockying (or as one person put it, "bullshit") without any actual evidence to back up the accusation, I...honestly I can't even think of what to say.

As a Jew, I have to remember that a third of my people were systematically wiped off the face of the earth a decade and a half before "I Love Lucy" came on the air. As a bisexual, I'm also aware that regardless of my religious/ethnic background I still would have been subject to discrimination, and it's important to memorialize all victims of the holocaust.

And to the rest of the community, stop upvoting them. Whatever your opinion is on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the fact that someone calling a holocaust memorial "bullshit" is currently sitting as the top comment in this thread is freaking me out.

  • [-]
  • ObjectiveTits
  • 16 Points
  • 04:13:24, 21 August

I'm sorry you have to see our sub in such a deplorable state. I've noticed this sub can get pretty angry over some very petty stuff.

  • [-]
  • baked-potato
  • -10 Points
  • 04:36:27, 21 August

Genocide isn't petty, and neither is using the oppression of gays to cover for it.

  • [-]
  • theherps
  • 4 Points
  • 13:29:03, 21 August

>genocide

If Israel was actually trying to wipe out the Palestinians, they probably wouldn't drop leaflets warning civilians before an air strike.

  • [-]
  • ObjectiveTits
  • 10 Points
  • 04:38:02, 21 August

You know that for a fact do you? Alright you win, they can no longer build the memorial. Then what? Does that solve anything?

  • [-]
  • ihateirony
  • -4 Points
  • 07:33:33, 21 August

The fact that it isn't known as a fact straight off the bat doesn't mean it shouldn't be discussed at all. Pinkwashing is a serious issue and when something that may be pinkwashing occurs (or that may be given a lot more publicity due to pinkwashing) we have a responsibility to at least view it through a skeptical lens and remind ourselves that much as it's fantastic how well gay men are treated in Israel, they're not the only potentially oppressed group out there, much as the government tries to over-publicise every pro gay thing that happens in Israel and cover up every anti-Palestinian thing (it's important to note that people racialised as Jewish have rights above Palestinians within the state and it's not just a matter of Israel occupying land using violence).

  • [-]
  • baked-potato
  • -10 Points
  • 04:39:29, 21 August

Know what for a fact? That genocide is bad? That as a queer person I should stand with other oppressed groups? Fuck yes I do know these are facts.

To address your edit, I don't want them to not build a memorial, I want them to stop their genocide.

  • [-]
  • ObjectiveTits
  • 7 Points
  • 04:49:21, 21 August

Ugh. Don't be obtuse, you know I was referring to your claim that this is all a ruse to cover up a genocide. And no shit I don't agree with genocide. What I'm in favor of them building this and suddenly I'm middle eastern Hitler?

  • [-]
  • baked-potato
  • -9 Points
  • 04:58:05, 21 August

Yes, I do know it for a fact. If you don't support genocide, why are you not outrightly condemning Israel? Would you think it was great if Apartheid South Africa or Nazi Germany built a statue to remember persecuted gays? Or would you condemn them for trying to use this to give themselves a good public image while continuing the persecution of another group?

  • [-]
  • ObjectiveTits
  • 7 Points
  • 05:05:11, 21 August

I think if tomorrow Nigeria or Uganda or Qatar erected a statue to gay or women icons it would not reverse the tragedies that took place in those countries, but a move like that would mean a lot symbolically for those persecuted minorities. Of course they're worthy of condemnation. Maybe you're right, maybe we should talk about the genocide whenever israel comes up and be more wary of their motives, but regardless of intent moves to recognize and validate lgbt groups in a society are always a good thing as long as they don't come at an unreasonable cost to others.

  • [-]
  • keiyakins
  • 5 Points
  • 09:14:22, 21 August

No one listen to baked-potato, he did something horrible once so now EVERYTHING HE DOES is horrible, not just the horrible things!

  • [-]
  • dudet23
  • 1 Points
  • 04:54:57, 21 August

Genocide... ya ok.

  • [-]
  • baked-potato
  • -14 Points
  • 05:01:08, 21 August

We will keep telling people about this, regardless of people like you attempting to erase what's happening to the Palestinians from history. Queer solidarity with other oppressed groups will never die.

  • [-]
  • Vexillae
  • 11 Points
  • 09:24:23, 21 August

You do realize that if the Palestinians got their way, they would systematically slaughter gays and lesbians, right?

  • [-]
  • dudet23
  • 1 Points
  • 05:13:17, 21 August

Ha ok... good luck with that.

  • [-]
  • skurh
  • -4 Points
  • 06:59:12, 21 August

good luck indeed.

  • [-]
  • skurh
  • -14 Points
  • 04:30:19, 21 August

Oh yes, so deplorable, how dare we have opinions contrary to your rosy narrative, might as well be shitlerds /s

  • [-]
  • ObjectiveTits
  • 17 Points
  • 04:37:41, 21 August

Well there's a lot of racism and xenophobia in this thread, as well as some mighty blind rage at Israelites. I get disagreeing with their politics but would refusing to let them put up a memorial to gay holocaust victims solve a damn thing?

  • [-]
  • captainenema
  • 2 Points
  • 13:43:36, 21 August

They are called Israelis these days, the term Israelite went out of fashion ages ago.

  • [-]
  • thomashc
  • -5 Points
  • 05:58:05, 21 August

No one is refusing to let them build it.

It's great that they're doing this, but it's still hypocrisy.

  • [-]
  • litui
  • 8 Points
  • 06:30:46, 21 August

If your city erects a monument in memory of the victims of a past war while your federal government is funding/fighting a war is that hypocrisy? No, it's just a subset of the population acting within its limited sphere of influence.

"Israeli" isn't some homogeneous group of people who all think and act the same.

Israelis are people too, and not a unified force fighting to keep the Palestinians down. Many of them are working both in and out of government to end the conflict. This monument also happens to be important to some of them.

  • [-]
  • thomashc
  • -1 Points
  • 06:44:24, 21 August

I'm not saying Israelis are one homogenous group.

But praise in this area is a total distraction.

  • [-]
  • litui
  • 5 Points
  • 07:16:35, 21 August

That's a less contentious point than crying "hypocrisy" over it, though I personally feel no less inappropriate in this forum over this issue.

This is an LGBT issues subreddit. If I came into threads about legislation of gay marriage and trans* rights in the US condemning the US for drone strikes on American citizens, widespread NSA surveillance, suppression of free speech, and hell even support for Israel, I'd be equally inappropriate. Not necessarily wrong, just inappropriate.

  • [-]
  • captainenema
  • 2 Points
  • 13:44:23, 21 August

That would only be true if this was getting a fair amount of buzz, which it probably isn't.

  • [-]
  • skurh
  • -10 Points
  • 04:40:32, 21 August

and the loaded political nature of your "deplorable" lamentation is brought forth.

Do you expect genocide to bring up rosy feelings? I won't shut up for your manners. I will not stay silent when there have lived heroines like Rachel Corrie.

  • [-]
  • Zorkamork
  • 6 Points
  • 05:39:40, 21 August

What the fuck have you done for Palestine?

  • [-]
  • ObjectiveTits
  • 7 Points
  • 04:47:25, 21 August

What I don't like is when people call arabs towelheads and assume all goodwill directed at gay minorities should be ripped apart because of some gut feeling that it's all politics. Of course its all politics, the world is inseparable from politics.

Feel free to say what you want, I'm not asking you to shut up, but I'm gonna give my opinion on baseless accusations when they happen.

  • [-]
  • skurh
  • -9 Points
  • 04:51:20, 21 August

No, you're not going to give me any opinion worth a fuck, as it seems you'd rather waste my time making indirect attacks on the "mood" of the conversation and misconstruing abject racism as somehow equivalent to criticism of ongoing genocide, and then further misconstruing such criticism as some weird "ripping" (of what exactly?) which is fucking absurd.

you are fucking absurd.

  • [-]
  • ObjectiveTits
  • 8 Points
  • 04:55:49, 21 August

You know what skurh, I don't want to fight right now. If you want to have a conversation sometime I'll honestly listen, but for now I'm not in the mood to be attacked.