Drama in r/adviceanimals when a user expresses his dislike for r/mensrights in a thread about divorce (np.reddit.com)
SubredditDrama
34 ups - 14 downs = 20 votes
115 comments submitted at 19:42:42 on Aug 15, 2013 by lol-da-mar-s-cool
Drama in r/adviceanimals when a user expresses his dislike for r/mensrights in a thread about divorce (np.reddit.com)
SubredditDrama
34 ups - 14 downs = 20 votes
115 comments submitted at 19:42:42 on Aug 15, 2013 by lol-da-mar-s-cool
>I'm not going to advise anyone to go to a subreddit full of people pretending that imaginary problems are real.
The fucking irony.
edit. I meant to mock the other subs that feel that their problems are more real than other peoples problems.
I interpreted it as mocking /r/AdviceAnimals, actually.
Most of their problems are imaginary.
They have a persecution complex and they make up problems to feed it.
So which of these points are imaginary or trivial/insignificant?
http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/uwekw/factsandstatisticsdetailingmale_oppression/
Majority of victims of violent crime = imaginary
Majority of suicides = imaginary
Majority of workplace deaths = imaginary
Majority of homeless = imaginary
Majority of incarcerated = imaginary
Males trailing females at every level of education = imaginary
Receiving a far harsher sentence than women for the same crime = imaginary
Being denied the right to bodily integrity = imaginary
Being denied access to your child = imaginary
>Majority of victims of violent crime = imaginary
Men are also the majority of perpetrators of violent crimes.
>Majority of suicides = imaginary
Suicide isn't tackled with regard to specific gender.
>Majority of workplace deaths = imaginary
How is majority of workplace deaths a problem of men's rights? That's a workplace relations problem.
>Majority of homeless = imaginary
Gender specific homeless shelters are a problem. Both male and female homeless should have access to facilities.
>Males trailing females at every level of education = imaginary
Again, what does this have to do with men's rights?
>Majority of incarcerated = imaginary
Because men commit more crimes.
>Receiving a far harsher sentence than women for the same crime = imaginary
Sometimes legitimate, but MRAs bring up isolated cases and misconstrue mitigating and aggravating circumstances as proof of discrimination.
>Being denied the right to bodily integrity = imaginary
You mean circumcision? The vast majority of anti-circumcision proponents have no connection whatsoever with men's rights movement. It is absurd that you see it this way.
>Being denied access to your child = imaginary
This is a legitimate problem. One of the very very few.
Here's the thing with your MRAs. You take as much problems as you can and you frame them as being issues of men's rights, when most of those problems have little to no relationship to men's rights.
>Suicide isn't tackled with regard to specific gender.
Okay, now try applying the same logic to the issue of the high suicide rate among trans* individuals.
Sure, helping someone who's suicidal doesn't depend that much on who they are. But do you maybe suppose there might be something about the nature of society that ought to be fixed that drove that person to suicide in the first place?
>How is majority of workplace deaths a problem of men's rights? That's a workplace relations problem.
The distinction you're making is absurd. People have a right to not be discriminated against in "workplace relations" (the discrimination explained by /u/david-me below explains the disparity in workplace deaths). Come on, this is pretty basic stuff that several feminist arguments rely upon (sexual harassment in the workplace, salary negotation).
>Again, what does [disparity in education] have to do with men's rights?
I dunno, what does disparity in wages have to do with feminism? I mean, I don't even really think either point is really born out by the statistics once you correct for everything relevant (including the personal aspirations of the people involved), but come on - let's be consistent here.
>Sometimes legitimate, but MRAs bring up isolated cases and misconstrue mitigating and aggravating circumstances as proof of discrimination.
Just what sort of evidence would it take to convince you on this point?
>You mean circumcision? The vast majority of anti-circumcision proponents have no connection whatsoever with men's rights movement. It is absurd that you see it this way.
What's the absurdity here? Can you demonstrate your claim? Who counts as "an anti-circumcision proponent", and how are you identifying them? But even beyond that - why does it matter what those proponents think - how is that relevant to it being an MR issue that infant boys are subject to non-consensual, not-medically-necessary body modifications and infant girls are not (in the Western world)?
The difference in rates in suicide between men and women have to do a lot with the methods used to commit suicide. Men are more likely to use more violent methods than women - as in, men are more likely to use guns than pills, and it's easier to pump someone's stomach and put them on saline than it is to stitch someone's skull back together.
Actually, it is because women simply seek attention, whereas men truly wish to die.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1998/11/981112075159.htm
> In the past, researchers who looked at the high rate of attempted suicide in women concluded that women were just not as efficient as men at taking their own lives. Murphy calls that "sexist baloney" and points to statistics that show that like men, women who commit suicide most often use guns. However, even as the number of women using the most lethal means increases, the suicide rate in women has slowly declined.
>"So it really goes back to the same thing -- that women, when they intend to do it, can be just as effective as men in committing suicide. But they aren't so inclined," Murphy says.
This is what men's rights activists actually believe.
That isn't an argument.
Do you doubt the quality of the source?
Do you doubt the quality of Dr. Murphy's analysis?
Do you think Dr. Murphy is an MRA?
Or just what?
It's the way Celda posts like women aren't brave and stalwart enough to kill themselves correctly the way a man does. They're just asking for attention like babies or animals.
>This is what men's rights activists actually believe.
While "it is because women simply seek attention" is a simplification and not always true. Post Suicide attempt interviews confirm it. Men more likely want to die and women want to be a victim of attempted suicide. It's sad but true.
>Men are more likely to use more violent methods than women
And why do you think that is?
>Men are also the majority of perpetrators of violent crimes.
So the problem becomes imaginary if you share the same genitalia as the person perpetrating the problem? That seems rather illogical. Should white women that get raped by white men be told "uh.. you're both the same race."
>Suicide isn't tackled with regard to specific gender.
Yet rape and domestic violence are gendered problems even though statistics show a significant amount of male victims for both. Ignoring that, I still fail to see why mens rights bringing awareness to the suicide statistics is an awful thing. And what if men and women are committing suicide for different reasons? Why would approaching it differently be a bad thing?
>How is majority of workplace deaths a problem of men's rights? That's a workplace relations problem.
How are women choosing low earning fields a problem for feminists? Why is a man dying not seen as a big deal? Why don't we give any effort to teach men they don't have to risk their lives the same way we are teaching women they don't have to be stay at home moms?
>Again, what does this have to do with men's rights?
Because no one cares. When women struggle in society, we want to fix it. When men struggle, it's part of the plan. Not to mention the fact that curriculum was changed in the 80's to better suit how females learn at the expense of males. Not to mention that there is evidence of a grading bias against boys. Not to mention that boys being more aggressive/hyper leads them to being over-diagnosed with ADHD.
>Because men commit more crimes.
But why do they commit more crimes? Is it society's fault or are men just inherently bad people? Why is it that when black people commit more crimes, we explain the variables such as low socioeconomic status and lack of education that lead to that criminal activity. By the way, this would be one of the reasons why the education problem is a mens right issue.
>You mean circumcision? The vast majority of anti-circumcision proponents have no connection whatsoever with men's rights movement. It is absurd that you see it this way.
I never suggested a connection. I'm suggesting that males do not have the right to bodily integrity if they're getting parts of their dicks chopped off as infants. Mens rights speaks out on these topics.
>Here's the thing with your MRAs. You take as much problems as you can and you frame them as being issues of men's rights, when most of those problems have little to no relationship to men's rights.
I disagree. I believe society turns a blind eye to many problems facing boys and men. Yet when a woman wants to talk about misogyny in video games, she receives overwhelming support. When a woman complains about a man saying the world 'dongle,' he gets fired. Why is it men can not come together and talk about their problems? Problems that never seem to get any recognition anywhere else.
> How is majority of workplace deaths a problem of men's rights? That's a workplace relations problem.
men are put in positions where likeliness of injury is higher. Lifting heavy things, reaching higher things etc.
>Suicide isn't tackled with regard to specific gender.
Maybe it should be? I think less dead people would be a good thing.
>Because men commit more crimes.
Violent crimes, but not total crimes. Women are often sentenced to less time for the same crime, especially if they have children.
>Being denied the right to bodily integrity
Yikes. I hope he was not referring to "monetary abortion"
I'm not an MRA I just felt like responding, for what it's worth.
>Violent crimes, but not total crimes. Women are often sentenced to less time for the same crime, especially if they have children.
Like it or not, on total males do commit more crimes than females. Why? Who knows, but it's not really up for debate. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexdifferencesin_crime
I am not questioning that they commit more crime. Just they they receive more time than women for the same crimes.
>Violent crimes, but not total crimes.
implies you were questioning whether they commit more crimes.
Sorry. Girls and women are less likely to be arrested or ever have charges brought against them. How do you tally the crimes that are not reported or pursued?
How many females have gone on shooting rampages lately? That's pretty hard to cover up or hide, so if they did it at the same rate as males I'd expect I would have remembered a few from the news lately.
> men are put in positions where likeliness of injury is higher. Lifting heavy things, reaching higher things etc.
That's a workplace relations issue. How does one approach the issue in terms of men's rights?
>Maybe it should be? I think less dead people would be a good thing.
Maybe, but it's not a vital issue. Men have as much access to suicide prevention as women.
>Violent crimes, but not total crimes. Women are often sentenced to less time for the same crime, especially if they have children.
jackoolantern specifically said "Majority of victims of violent crime" which is nonsense because the majority of perpetrators of violent crime are men. And with regards to having children as being a mitigating circumstance, does this not occur to fathers as well?
> That's a workplace relations issue. How does one approach the issue in terms of men's rights?
it's obviously not a "rights" issue. but where else should they advocate the masses?
>Maybe, but it's not a vital issue. Men have as much access to suicide prevention as women.
They are far more likely to because of societal reasons/pressure, war etc.
> And with regards to having children as being a mitigating circumstance, does this not occur to fathers as well?
It does not. unfortunately. Judges are bastards
>Men are also the majority of perpetrators of violent crimes.
So if men are victims of other men it doesn't count as a problem?
>Males trailing females at every level of education = imaginary
Citation?
The high school drop out gender gap, or the literacy gender gap in which boys comprise 66% percent of all high school dropouts (a 22% gap!), and 11% more girls than boys meeting basic literacy requirements.
The University graduation gender gap 57% of University graduates are women, that means there's a 14% gap
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/answer-sheet/higher-education/gender-gap-in-higher-education.html
>In less than a decade women will account for 59 percent of total undergraduate enrollment and 61 percent of graduate enrollment at the country’s colleges and universities and already have a dominant presence at every degree level, a new government report shows.
http://articles.latimes.com/2013/jun/11/opinion/la-oe-diprete-male-education-gap-20130611
>Despite rising college costs and the many other challenges facing America's schools, women have made extraordinary strides in education. They have overtaken men in high school and college completion in the last few decades, earning 58% of bachelor's degrees and 62% of postsecondary occupational certificates.
>Our research has found that if men had the same educational distribution as women, their earnings would be 3.7% higher than they are and more men would be employed. Bridging the education gender gap is central to increasing America's competitiveness in the world economy.
>The educational shortfall of men has two important components. First, men are less likely to enroll in colleges and universities. Second, even when they do enroll, they are less likely to obtain a degree or certificate.
Can you break it down by demographic, please? I think we might find some surprising evidence that this gap is less gender related and more gender-race related.
I'm not sure how that contradicts anything though. Just looking at one of the articles I mentioned earlier: http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/education/2010-01-26-genderequity26STN.htm
>Just 9% of Hispanic young men have earned a bachelor's degree, the lowest attainment level of any group studied. Among Hispanic young women, 14% have earned a bachelor's.
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/education/2009-03-30-black-colleges_N.htm
>To explain the particular struggles of men, educators point to a range of cultural factors that affect black men everywhere, but which are especially visible at HBCUs.
>Men have fewer role models, and also seem to think they have more opportunities without a degree. Educators also describe a constant battle against two poisonous ideas: that black men can't succeed, or that if they do they are somehow less than genuine.
>"When (men) come to school they think they're never going to make it," he said. "They start out and when they don't think they're up to snuff, they just quit. And that's why females will always dominate the college ranks."
So the question is why do minority women fare better than minority men?
http://www.edweek.org/media/every100girls-32boys.pdf
That list doesn't really do a very good job of proving that males trail females at every level of education, but I guess you didn't really read it.
Did you not read it?
Less boys than girls graduate from high school.
Triple the amount of boys are expelled from school.
Over double the amount of boys are diagnosed with learning or special ed disabilities.
Significantly less men than women are enrolled in college.
Significantly less men than women earn bachelor's or masters's degrees.
What more do you want as proof?
For every 100 American women who earn a first-professional degree 104 American men earn a first-professional degree
For every 100 women ages 25 to 29 years who are at least a high school graduate 140 men are at least high school graduates.
>For every 100 American women who earn a first-professional degree 104 American men earn a first-professional degree
That is cherry-picking - that is not a level of education, it is a specific subset of fields of study. Men are more likely to go into fields that confer such degrees. Unless you think that the disparity between female and male English graduates is proof?
>For every 100 women ages 25 to 29 years who are at least a high school graduate 140 men are at least high school graduates.
This seems like an anomaly - within a small demographic of a 5-year range.
The fact is, the evidence shows that males, on average, are doing worse than females in all levels of education.
http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/less-versus-fewer?page=all
I'm sorry... it bothers me...
As for the education system, the whole goddamn thing needs an overhaul, regardless of any gender issues. From elementary school to higher education. Just scrap the whole thing and start over.
Praytell which ones are imaginary that are common claims within the MRM?
Imaginary problems like this, this and this from the front page.
I really thought that last one was satire. But not on /r/Mensrights.
From the last link: >It's fine if you disagree but you will never convince me otherwise.
Can people not just, I don't know, be more open minded and accepting of different points of views or is it really that difficult?
It's not the comments that I was pointing to. It's the fact that an MRA posted the wiki page on Eunuchs with the title "Let us take a moment to remember these men and boys who had to suffer so much."
Are they going to remember the suffering of Eunuchs in Ancient China? Do they mourn Varys from A Song of Ice and Fire?
My favorite part from the last link >Look, I also have a penis and think it sucks that some people mutilate the penises of newborns, but don't try to compare it to castration, because that's a whole different ballgame.
lel ballgame
I am unsure how disparities in being held responsible for violence and circumcision(which itself is a contentious topic) are imaginary problems. You could try to argue they're overstated either in those threads or even in the MRM as a whole, but I'm not sure calling it imaginary is fair.
Okay.
First post: Woman who murdered 45 children set for release from prison
A commenter in that thread: "She's not being allowed to go free because she's a female at all, it's because the law at the time included the statute that well behaving prisoners could be freed before their sentence was due. And suspected of is not the same as convicted of, if they had enough evidence I imagine those additional murders would have been taken into account."
Second post: The Unknown History of Misandry -- Unprosecuted Female Serial Killers, Husband Killers, and Alimony Racket!! (Everything is easily googleable)
Unprosecuted female serial killers is actually misandry. My God! Not to mention the shitty blog source.
Third post: I became physically ill when I read this. Let us take a moment to remember these men and boys who had to suffer so much.
It's just a link to the wikipedia page on 'Eunuchs' with a brief summary of the history of eunuchs from the Ancient Middle East, to Ancient Rome and Ancient China to India.
At the bottom of the page, it describes contemporary eunuchs as advanced prostate cancer patients, male-to-female transsexuals, and convicted sex offenders. So obviously, the OP of that thread wanted to mourn the pain and suffering of eunuchs in ancient history.
It's absurd. This bullshit is what's wrong with MRAs. They have a persecution complex through the freaking roof.
God bless you for trying, but the disconnect is between bad things happening to men and bad things happening to men because they're men, and very few MRAs are able to comprehend the distinction.
Oh god, you mean men getting injured more often at their higher-paid more unionized manual labor jobs, compared to the "pink collar" jobs women often take (housekeeping, elder care, etc. all of which pay less and have less benefits) isn't misandry?
It's telling what sort of injuries they count as injuries. Sure, a oil rig operator is at a not insignificant risk of catastrophic injury. But pink collar housekeepers in a hotel chain, nearly all women of color, are pretty much all going to end up with repetitive motion injuries and the effects of high exposure to cleaning chemicals. Are maids going to get blown up or their limbs ripped off? Nope. But they're going to have chronic knee pain, osteoporosis, and all sorts of cancer caused by commerical-strength chemicals.
My girlfriend worked as an executive housekeeper for three years. She spent six months of that time in and out of knee braces, and received so many injuries to her wrists and elbows (housekeeping is lateral motion work) that she'd go through Costco-sized bottles of Aspirin pretty much weekly. And if the pain was too much, she couldn't take time off. They'd fire her, because those jobs are never unionized. And they pay super shitty as well. She had to be on-call 24/7, worked 45-50 hours a week, and still made under 40K. And she was in charge of all of the housekeeping staff for a 300+ room hotel, and had to have a degree to get that job.
Shitty jobs are shitty jobs, across the board. Men's jobs, shitty or not, are just way way way more likely to be unionized. Oh, and paid better.
>It's telling what sort of injuries they count as injuries. Sure, a oil rig operator is at a not insignificant risk of catastrophic injury. But pink collar housekeepers in a hotel chain, nearly all women of color, are pretty much all going to end up with repetitive motion injuries and the effects of high exposure to cleaning chemicals. Are maids going to get blown up or their limbs ripped off? Nope. But they're going to have chronic knee pain, osteoporosis, and all sorts of cancer caused by commerical-strength chemicals.
Is there a specific study you're referring to here?
I'm just gonna leave this here. Not to be for or against your post, but in the hopes that both sides will read this and ponder the situation.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/28/christine-mccallum-sex-with-student-sentencedn1385559.html
>A commenter in that thread: "She's not being allowed to go free because she's a female at all, it's because the law at the time included the statute that well behaving prisoners could be freed before their sentence was due. And suspected of is not the same as convicted of, if they had enough evidence I imagine those additional murders would have been taken into account."
That doesn't really address the disparate sentencing and conviction rates of men and women who commit violent crime.
Is this a shaky example? Yes. Does that disprove the overall theme? No.
> Unprosecuted female serial killers is actually misandry. My God! Not to mention the shitty blog source.
Even if they're primarily killing men and getting away with it?
>It's absurd. This bullshit is what's wrong with MRAs. They have a persecution complex through the freaking roof.
I think you're reaching here. These are examples of exaggeration which I conceded there was room for argument for, but to say that because that happens someone or a group has a persecution complex is premature. That doesn't mean that none of them have one either of course.
I'm an MRA, and presumably a somewhat well known one on Reddit at least in the gender politics circles. Do I have persecution complex? I'd like to think I'm tempered and reasonable but still fallible.
Perhaps there's a misunderstanding as to what is meant by misandry when it is claimed in the MRM. What are you inferring it as?
I like the part where you say that, but then people point out real problems that actually exist, and get downvoted for it.
It's almost as if there are a bunch of people around here who want to believe what you're saying without evidence, because it conforms to their worldview.