How I imagine the Anna Sarkisian product will turn out (imgur.com)

MensRights

1015 ups - 349 downs = 666 votes

302 comments submitted at 13:00:39 on Jan 29, 2013 by afweef

  • [-]
  • stranglehold
  • -36 Points
  • 13:44:44, 29 January

Well, it would be a valid point, both are examples of male fantasy. Duke looks and acts how the physically mediocre and insecure males who dominate the gaming market wish they looked and acted while the woman looks and dresses like how the males who dominate the gaming market wish women looked and dressed. In all the massively disproportionate circle jerking hatred the woman received it gets lost that the VAST majority of video-games out there are infantile male power fantasies. Feel free to explain why I'm wrong.

  • [-]
  • The_Final_DarkMage
  • 27 Points
  • 14:03:36, 29 January

So you're saying that no girl. (In fact I might argue most) Ever wanted to look extremely attractive and end up with maybe the most attractive male counterpart?

This effects both sides not just one. The only difference here would be the personality characteristics of the characters portrayed here, but there are plenty of both male and female characters with attractive personalities.

  • [-]
  • stranglehold
  • -21 Points
  • 14:33:51, 29 January

>So you're saying that no girl. (In fact I might argue most) Ever wanted to look extremely attractive and end up with maybe the most attractive male counterpart?

I'm not saying that at all. All I'm saying is that in western society, men have far more influence over what both genders are pressured to look like than women.

>This effects both sides not just one. The only difference here would be the personality characteristics of the characters portrayed here, but there are plenty of both male and female characters with attractive personalities.

Again, I'm not saying both sides aren't effected, I'm saying one side is effected more, and that the pressure is coming from predominantly male forces. The people with the vast majority of the power in society right now are still men. I'm not saying no man has ever been treated unjustly by a woman, I'm just saying when averaged out over society, shit's still dramatically imbalanced in our favor, and that men are oppressing men in far greater power and numbers than women are oppressing them.

Personally I think the problem with the men's rights movement is not that there are no valid points to be made, it's just that you have to wade through miles of bitterness towards women to get to them and it's frustrating. Human's oppress other humans in lots of different ways, given the general oppression humans face at the hands of any powerful institution, be it the the state, religion, other men, culture in general etc. It's very hard to read this subreddit and not perceive a distinct of people who have had relationships and interactions with women not turn out the way they wanted and have begun to resent women in general.

  • [-]
  • InNomine
  • 13 Points
  • 14:51:06, 29 January

Magazine editors are mostly women, newspapers are dominated by women. In marketing and advertisement it's slightly skewed towards men I think, unless it's about beauty products, which is skewed towards women. Women make up these rules and men just have to conform to their ideals.

  • [-]
  • hyperkron
  • 7 Points
  • 15:07:09, 29 January

> All I'm saying is that in western society, men have far more influence over what both genders are pressured to look like than women.

You mean: You are asserting that this is the case. Please argue to the validity of your assertion.

  • [-]
  • stranglehold
  • -5 Points
  • 15:29:55, 29 January

Well off the top of my head only 4.2% of fortune 1000 ceo positions are held by women, 17.7% of the house of representatives and 20% of the senate. A sample of the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Science that looked at 5000 of its 5700ish members showed it to be 77% male. A recent guardian ranking of the 100 most powerful people in media showed a little over 10% were female, 1 in the top 10.

Now this doesn't necessarily prove anything, but I think it's good evidence that the cultural and political forces in western society are still pretty much dominated by men. Have you any facts to counter with?

  • [-]
  • IAMULTRAHARDCORE
  • 9 Points
  • 15:49:48, 29 January

Apex Fallacy. GG.

  • [-]
  • hyperkron
  • 8 Points
  • 16:00:34, 29 January

As you seem to be aware these stats are not related to your assertion that "men have far more influence over what both genders are pressured to look like than women." I think that we can agree that citing random gender stats does not help your mere assertion.

In fact, your are sidestepping your assertion going from the specific "pressuring to look like" to a rather unspecific "culture dominated by men." You might have done this in the hope that if you could establish "a culture dominated by men" your assertion for looks might follow. However, this is only true if you could demonstrate that "all parts of culture are dominated by the will of men." But you did not do this.

So, in conclusion, you increased the number of assertions from one to two rendering your position to be even more unlikely.

And to counter facts: Women have twice the chance of propagating their genes through the generations. Part of those genes encode at least in part values & interests. Thus, the interests & values of women tend to dominate the gene pool over time. Thus, women interests & values dominate culture. Thus, women have more influence then men. Qed. (btw: it could very well be in the interest of women if men superficially dominate cultural positions).

  • [-]
  • stranglehold
  • -4 Points
  • 16:09:10, 29 January

values and interests are influenced by genetics: assertion, would love to hear your evidence.

Love the use of Qed on the basis of extremely questionable science.

The people arguing against me haven't made any fewer baseless assertions than I have, at least I offered some statistical evidence, flawed though it may be, that men dominate positions of power and influence.

But hey, you've already decided how reality is independent of facts, who am I to argue.

  • [-]
  • pachan
  • 4 Points
  • 16:19:04, 29 January

99.9% of men have ZERO power or influence on anything. just because i am the same gender as all these CEOs doesnt mean they give the smallest fuck about me and what i want.

so, no, men do not dominate anything. SOME, a very limited number of men do, all the other men dont benefit from it.

if you want to know who is Privileged and has the most power you should look at the laws (divorce laws, DV laws, less jail time for the same crimes) and statistics like suicide rate,life expectancy and so on.

  • [-]
  • JabCross
  • 4 Points
  • 16:29:30, 29 January

"Now this doesn't necessarily prove anything."

Finally something we can both agree on.

"Have you any facts to counter with?"

Counter what?

  • [-]
  • The_Final_DarkMage
  • 7 Points
  • 14:49:29, 29 January

I would argue differently. If anyone was hurt by women in some way here it would be in the realm of abuse and legal underrepresentation. This sub criticizes feminism for its actions and influences on western society. The only oppression is being done by ideology. You make it sound like males are a constant and changing influence on stereotypes and oppression. Fact is these stereotypes predate today's society and population. There is no dividing of male and female. It's only the tyrants and the resistance.

  • [-]
  • stranglehold
  • -1 Points
  • 15:52:30, 29 January

Good point. I like a more gender neutral way of looking at things. Can't we just all have human rights? Honestly I'm amazed at the parallels between the ideologies of both the radical feminists and the more angry MRA's. As someone who is neither it's fascinating to watch. At least I doubt you guys will ban me, SRSdiscussion banned me for calling out the hypocrisy of people who decry gender, race or sexual oriention (among others) based pejoratives while still calling people who disagree with them neckbeards or cis-scum. Either way, I'm enjoying myself. Thanks for being reasonable and making good points without resorting insulting me.

  • [-]
  • The_Final_DarkMage
  • 1 Points
  • 16:12:54, 29 January

Of course. I'm part of the representation of this subreddit. As are all contributors. So it's my responsibility to act civil and reasonable.

You're gonna find plenty of parallels between radical feminism and the more angry MRA's. As you will with all radicals of any ideology. But the only difference I will present is that feminism has definitely had more time to mature and already has tons of political influence. So they do a lot more damage. While MRA is still young and we tend to appeal first and foremost, albeit sometimes unintentionally, to those who have been hurt by feminism more than the average person.

This movement will definitely mature and we should be able to regulate ourselves by taking account of the example of ideological tyranny that a lot of feminism has become.

  • [-]
  • RocketEngine
  • -1 Points
  • 15:18:01, 29 January

>I'm not saying that at all. All I'm saying is that in western society, men have far more influence over what both genders are pressured to look like than women.

I don't exactly agree.

In western society, a small number of men that are not you or me or anyone you or I will ever associate with have far more influence over what both genders are pressured to look like than the rest of the men and women in the world.

And they're not making things better for men. They're making things better for themselves. That they happen to be male is immaterial; the vast majority of males aren't benefiting from this. This doesn't apply to everything, of course. But the feminist's fight is not woman versus man, nor is the MRA fight man versus woman.

It's unfortunate that we've been duped into thinking one another are the enemy.

>Personally I think the problem with the men's rights movement is not that there are no valid points to be made, it's just that you have to wade through miles of bitterness towards women to get to them and it's frustrating

It is unfortunate, and it makes it easy to reinforce strawmen about this community. I saw you make a similar comment in /r/SRSDiscussion regarding the use of terms like "cis scum" and "neckbeard" and I agree completely that that sort of thing, here or there, hurts our goals.

  • [-]
  • JoeDerp
  • 2 Points
  • 21:33:46, 29 January

What people find attractive changes pretty often, to assume it is solely driven by male preference is a pretty bad argument. It wasn't that long ago that handlebar mustaches and mullets were considered attractive.

  • [-]
  • NCender27
  • 23 Points
  • 14:29:37, 29 January

Isn't it sexist to assume the majority of men want what you just stated...?

  • [-]
  • stranglehold
  • -22 Points
  • 14:42:47, 29 January

I don't think it is the majority of men, the majority of men don't play a great deal of video games. I'm drawing my conclusions based on about 13 years of experience playing MMO's, FPS's, and RTS online and participation in the various subcommunities surrounding these games, as well as probably far to much redditing over the last 4 or 5 years or so.

I'm not sure its what the majority of men want, but I am sure it's what a significant chunk of the men who play video games want. I've been to conventions, the stereotype of serious gamers as socially awkward, physically unattractive and sexually frustrated is one of the more accurate stereotypes out there. It's understandable that a lot of these people would become bitter towards women under such circumstances, but it's not women who are responsible. In my experience, most people who are sexually frustrated are, one way or another, sabotaging themselves and then looking for an 'other' to blame for their sadness because hey, if the reason you are unhappy is because of institutional oppression against men then you don't have to do anything except maybe bitch online about oppressive feminists.

  • [-]
  • st_gulik
  • 14 Points
  • 14:55:30, 29 January

Lol, way to stereotype. Video games are one if the largest entertainment industries in the US rivaling movies three days. To make such claims about men who play games is not only ignorant but also sexist.

  • [-]
  • NCender27
  • 4 Points
  • 14:58:48, 29 January

Look, I'm with you. The portrayal of women in SOME games is far less than fair, (Enough to cause alarm, but not as much as stated) because there have also been many games throughout with a strong female character from the Ocarina of Time with Sheik/Zelda to the Halo series with Cortana.

However, that's not the issue I have with your comment though. My issue is that you've just gone and singled out an entire group of men with an interest in video games and now just lumped them in one category of ugly, socially awkward, and sexually frustrated. If you want to break stereotypes, stop using them.

  • [-]
  • RocketEngine
  • 5 Points
  • 15:20:42, 29 January

>I've been to conventions, the stereotype of serious gamers as socially awkward, physically unattractive and sexually frustrated is one of the more accurate stereotypes out there

That would prove this only for 'the stereotype of gamers who go to conventions'

Most gamers do not attend conventions.

>In my experience, most people who are sexually frustrated are, one way or another, sabotaging themselves and then looking for an 'other' to blame for their sadness

This is mostly true, however.

  • [-]
  • Peter_Principle_
  • 2 Points
  • 18:50:33, 29 January

>That would prove this only for 'the stereotype of gamers who go to conventions'

Not even that, given that he's using his own personal observation as evidence. Confirmation bias is not just a river in Egypt.

  • [-]
  • TracyMorganFreeman
  • 26 Points
  • 14:06:48, 29 January

> In all the massively disproportionate circle jerking hatred the woman received

Circlejerking hatred? Anita Sarkesian at this point is thought of to be a fraud. I saw many of her videos and just thought she was a feminist who was really good at telling only one side of the story of low hanging fruit. Now that instead of doing what she said she would, she's riding a victimhood cash train. When she's claiming she receives threats from private messages I immediately laugh, because threats aren't really threats if they're not actionable or serious, and random assholes on the internet are just trying to push her buttons. She's either too stupid to realize this, or is perfectly aware of this and willing to exploit other people who are too stupid to realize this.

It gets lost because she keeps making that claim, but instead of, you know, investigating and demonstrating it, has appeared to take the money and ran, while crying foul for people actually criticizing her for doing so.

  • [-]
  • PowerWisdomCourage
  • 18 Points
  • 14:02:57, 29 January

First, assuming this "male fantasy" nonsense to be true, the "male fantasy" would only be their fantasy because of the sexism men face to actually conform to that stereotype. Which, is hardly the work of men exclusively.

Second, the female character appearance comes from the female fantasy. They cake on make up, starve themselves, stuff themselves into outfits that don't fit, trying to emulate impossible goals of beauty. That's in real life. Not the games. The characters are reflections of that. Of course, that's mostly nonsense, but it goes to show how easily one can make up equally absurd garbage as this "male fantasy" crap by making superficial observations and applying them where they want.

If anything, the "male fantasy" that you speak of is sexistly socialized, and the game is based on that. Not any inherent power fantasy any more than being objectified fills the female sexuality fantasy.

  • [-]
  • stranglehold
  • -12 Points
  • 14:15:35, 29 January

>First, assuming this "male fantasy" nonsense to be true, the "male fantasy" would only be their fantasy because of the sexism men face to actually conform to that stereotype. Which, is hardly the work of men exclusively.

Not exclusively, but overwhelmingly. Video games are by and large made by men, for men. The editors of mens health magazines and largely dudes, the directors, executive producers, stars and audiences of this shit are overwhelmingly male. Women generally don't find that kind of shit attractive, it's a generalization, but there's a reason most women would choose a Johnny Depp over the roided up nonsense that pervades all but the small fraction of video games that actually have any merit as an art form.

>Second, the female character appearance comes from the female fantasy. They cake on make up, starve themselves, stuff themselves into outfits that don't fit, trying to emulate impossible goals of beauty. That's in real life. Not the games.

Female fantasy? No, that's male fantasy right there. Look at porn, both the hardcore on the internet and the softcore that pervades society. It's made (by and large) by men for men who are have the lions share of the purchasing power in western society. Do men face pressure to conform to certain unrealistic stereotypes by society? Sure, but these stereotypes aren't being imposed upon them by feminists or even women in general, men do it to themselves.

>The characters are reflections of that. Of course, that's mostly nonsense, but it goes to show how easily one can make up equally absurd garbage as this "male fantasy" crap by making superficial observations and applying them where they want.

Are you seriously arguing that video-games aren't driven by male fantasy? They are almost synonyms.

>If anything, the "male fantasy" that you speak of is sexistly socialized, and the game is based on that. Not any inherent power fantasy any more than being objectified fills the female sexuality fantasy.

I'm not saying it's not sexistly socialized. I'm saying the difference is that women are pressured by society to conform to unrealistic standards of beauty by men, while men are pressured to conform to unrealistic standards BY MEN. If you think women are the driving force behind this nonsense you are deluding yourself.

  • [-]
  • PowerWisdomCourage
  • 12 Points
  • 14:37:20, 29 January

By men that are forced to think a certain way for men that are forced to think a certain way. Also, you are unqualified to say what women generally find attractive. You're not the general female public. I have a friend who is bodybuilder and women swarm on him like flies on shit any time he goes anywhere in public simply due to his physique. Most are open about it too so there's no confusion what they want.

First, men don't have the purchasing power in western society. That statement is provably false. Women have the majority of the purchasing power in western society, it's a rather well known fact and scientifically proven. They make an overwhelming amount of all purchases. If men doing it to themselves is some kind of defense, then no one forces women to look a certain way. They do it willingly. In porn, in movies, in magazines, in public even. Hell, no one even says they have to do any of that. If those things are true, then your entire argument falls apart.

Are you seriously arguing that video games are driven by male fantasy? They are almost synonyms......to people who aren't gamers. Why do you even have an opinion about this if you're not a gamer? You know jack and shit about games, obviously. So why be so up in arms about something you know nothing about? You must be a goddamn genius.

Please. Women are forced into that by other women far more than men. Men just benefit from it by not having to date/fuck/marry someone that looks like they came from Mordor. It's amazing how out of touch some people can be. You should drop the femi-goggles and actually look at society sometime. Instead of being told what's going on, observe it yourself. Until then, I think my time can be better spent elsewhere on Reddit.

  • [-]
  • stranglehold
  • -8 Points
  • 14:57:22, 29 January

>By men that are forced to think a certain way for men that are forced to think a certain way. Also, you are unqualified to say what women generally find attractive. You're not the general female public. I have a friend who is bodybuilder and women swarm on him like flies on shit any time he goes anywhere in public simply due to his physique. Most are open about it too so there's no confusion what they want.

I'm as qualified as you are. We're all just talking here and I don't have be an entire segment of society in order to observe society and draw conclusions from said observations. I don't doubt that there are women out there who swarm to body builders, but you know who else has women swarm to them? Musicians, celebrities, athletes, politicians, the rich, the famous, the kind, the smart. Hell Stephen Hawking managed to bang his nurse.

The point is women find a large variety of characteristics, both physical and mental, attractive. Fascinating analogy you drew there by the way, describing women as flies and the physically fit man getting all the attention as shit.

>First, men don't have the purchasing power in western society. That statement is provably false. Women have the majority of the purchasing power in western society, it's a rather well known fact and scientifically proven.

I know you didn't just say something is scientifically provable without citing a source.

>They make an overwhelming amount of all purchases. If men doing it to themselves is some kind of defense, then no one forces women to look a certain way. They do it willingly. In porn, in movies, in magazines, in public even. Hell, no one even says they have to do any of that. If those things are true, then your entire argument falls apart.

I'm not saying women are 'forced' I'm saying they are pressured. There's a difference. Ultimately women are human beings with free agency and get to decide how to act and what to wear. I'm saying that the choices that are available to them are largely provided by the men in positions of power in those industries.

>Are you seriously arguing that video games are driven by male fantasy? They are almost synonyms......to people who aren't gamers. Why do you even have an opinion about this if you're not a gamer? You know jack and shit about games, obviously. So why be so up in arms about something you know nothing about? You must be a goddamn genius.

Fascinating, so you have begun to make ad hominem attacks in lieu of logical arguments. I've been a gamer my entire life, what do i need to do to prove it? Describe in detail the plots of final fantasy 4-10? Post of SS of my 150+ days /played in WoW? Maybe the 500 hours in civ 4? Maybe the achievement lists of all the silly fps I've enjoyed over the years? I'm not saying that it's necessarily a bad thing for video-games to be male power fantasies, but I would take someone who has played video-games not being aware of this fact as evidence of crippling perceptual bias.

>Please. Women are forced into that by other women far more than men. Men just benefit from it by not having to date/fuck/marry someone that looks like they came from Mordor. It's amazing how out of touch some people can be. You should drop the femi-goggles and actually look at society sometime. Instead of being told what's going on, observe it yourself. Until then, I think my time can be better spent elsewhere on Reddit.

Your incredulity is unimpressive and unless you have an actual argument to make feel free to stop wasting my time. It's amazing, not a week or so ago there was a long and popular post about modern versus post-modern styles of arguing followed by the majority of this subreddit patting themselves on the back over how rational they are. You honestly argue as bad as some of those moronic SRSers

  • [-]
  • rottingchrist
  • 13 Points
  • 14:34:16, 29 January

>Well, it would be a valid point, both are examples of male fantasy. Duke looks and acts how the physically mediocre and insecure males who dominate the gaming market wish they looked and acted

.......

> while the woman looks and dresses like how the males who dominate the gaming market wish women looked and dressed.

Very convenient. I can flip that around and say that women in the games look and dress like how the girl gamer fatties wished they did, and men look all hulked out because that's how those pudgy female gamers wish all men would look like.

But then I'd be as disingenuous as you.

  • [-]
  • xonze
  • 1 Points
  • 22:09:23, 29 January

Okay, let's say they are, what's wrong with that? Are only women allowed their fantasies? I mean, woman have romance books that sell like hotcakes all the time (I'm not even talking erotica), majority of them are written by women, and the vast majority are consumed by women.

Men in these books are portrayed just as stereotypical as a woman in a video game, sometimes more so, but I don't see men getting up in arms over being looked at as only a wallet, or a lap dog, or an accessory to the smart, independent women that inhabit these romance books. These women who purposefully induce jealousy, just to make sure he still cares about her. These women, that are most of the time, not bad looking and sometimes described as 'hot' or would 'turn the heads of every man, not that she was really looking'.

Are these not female fantasies? Aren't these infantile woman power fantasies as video games are to men/teens? Hell, bringing in erotica you have twilight mom's, middle aged women who are crazy over fictional (under age) characters and are proud of it. Men would be ostracized and called pedophiles if they would even hint at something like that. And yes, lots of people find it strange/weird, but most don't much care.

But the fact of the matter is, games are stylized; they're art (you can argue this if you like, but they are created by artistic people and as such it is art, even if not consider high art). They don't portray the real world. They are created from imagination. Is some of the imagination a little sexist? Sure. Humans are sexist (not just men). But the problem is that it's only ever looked at from one side, it's only ever a problem from one side. Instead of saying 'hey, these games could do a lot better on a lot accounts' its 'gamers are women haters! Gamers are insecure and mediocre! Women don't even look like that! Stop gawking!' When this happens you turn away the one ally you have, other gamers.

Most gamers aren't gunshy, they will fight for their hobby because they've always had to, men and women in the community have always felt under attack by those that don't share the hobby. Sometimes they miss the point, but they won't get it if you attack first and then try to tell them. The other thing is that depending on how you look at something, its always going to be sexist because people, for some strange reason, would rather look at the gender of someone than who the person is and why they may act/dress the way they do. Because, it all comes down to that, its not portraying women or men, its portraying A Woman or A Man.

Humans have fantasies. It's one of the things we do best, visualization, but if you're going sit here and tell me that a stylized woman in a game, or a stylized man in a game are somehow making life worse for women or men I'd need some proof. We're not talking advertisements here where models are really people (though airbrushed) we're talking 3d polygons that vary in proportion and sometimes aren't even correct. That's what art can do. It doesn't have to conform to what others believe is correct. It is never to be taken as 'that's how I'm suppose to look' because it doesn't even exist outside of the art form. I know of no men that looked like Batman or Joker. I know of no women that looked like Harley or Catwoman as they are shown in the games.

Take care,