User in r/askwomen asks if women really don't like the "Fedora persona", and if they find things like tipping a fedora and saying m'lady creepy. He is kindly told not to do it, but he's not having it. (np.reddit.com)
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426 ups - 114 downs = 312 votes
342 comments submitted at 21:35:32 on Jan 29, 2014 by rampantdissonance
Pretty sure the reasons given aren't the real reason:
Its done by a lot of creepy losers so its associated with creepy losers
Their reason sounds better if you're trying to make a case against fedoras.
Hm. I still don't get it.
What do people dislike so much about fedoras? What makes them inherently creepy?
Sure, I can understand how they're associated with a certain stereotypical image of a "socially impaired" man. It's just like any stereotype of what someone wears. However, I can't think of any other example where that suddenly means that anyone who wears the stereotypical piece of clothing must embody the stereotype.
Most shunned articles of clothing are viewed in that way because they make the person wearing the clothes unattractive. However, maybe this is just an opinion shared by no one else, but I don't think the fedora is inherently unattractive.
The intense hate just seems so irrational. I really don't care if you want to wear a hat that is sometimes attributed to socially awkward men, if you look good in it.
There is nothing inherently creepy about fedoras. It's because they're strongly associated with creepy losers.
Ok... so wouldn't it be somewhat irrational to suddenly assume that, because many creepy losers wear fedoras, and you are wearing a fedora, you are a creepy loser?
Can people not see the flawed logic there?
When it comes down to it, be secure enough in wearing whatever the fuck you want. Someone with a strong sense of identity and confidence is far more attractive than simply choosing not to wear a fedora.
Does that mean every women you ever meet is going to spread her legs and fuck you? No, of course not. You're going to turn some women off by choosing to wear a fedora. Is it wrong? Sure, but you're going to turn some women off simply because you have blue eyes too. Not every single woman out there is going to get turned off because you wear a fedora, you're just confining yourself to the type of woman that doesn't find it creepy or obnoxious. It's ok that some women don't find you attractive, there's nothing you can do that will satisfy every single woman on earth -- if you get rejected, move on.
Frankly, if you're that attached to an article of clothing, I'm more concerned about the mental hangup you have about a stupid hat. But whatever, be whoever you want and stop listening to subreddits about dating advice.
EDIT: BTW, no one in the history of humanity convinced someone of the opposite gender that they were actually attractive through some logical argument.
> You're going to turn some women off by choosing to wear a fedora. Is it wrong? Sure
no, it definitely isn't
>be secure enough in wearing whatever the fuck you want
It's worth noting writing up paragraph after paragraph online about your fedora collection and how you wear them differently to those other guys is the exact opposite of being secure and absolutely makes you one of those other guys.
If, in your experience, all of the handful of fedora-wearing guys you've encountered are creepy, then it is human nature to have a non-zero expectation that the next fedora-wearing guy you spot will be creepy.
It is somewhat irrational. However, clothing is a powerful social signal-how you dress can say a lot about how you want to present yourself to people. If you wear a fedora, it either means you don't care or know about social signaling (which can be a bad sign), or want (possibly implicily) to signal your closeness to people that wear fedoras.
Certainly people can buy into it too much, and a lot of the hate really is irrational, but there's a reason behind it.
Alright, I suppose I know what you mean, I was just a bit shocked how much hate the commenters had in that post. I didn't think OP said anything that was despicable or dislikable or anything...
Not that I have any interest in wearing fedoras, I just can't bring myself to hate on them.
Like a lot of women on the thread posited, women want to be equal. If some dude or woman even tipped their hat at me and said "m'lady", I would be incredibly insulted. It isn't the fedora, it's the messages behind fedora "personna" or what have you.
did people in this thread just go full retard and explain to someone why fedoras have a bad rap? if you don't understand why fedoras have a bad rap, you're probably one of the people who shouldn't be wearing them.
lol, is it that wrong to get clarification? I was curious why people thought this way, and now I sort of understand.
You're acting like it's a universal truth that fedoras are bad.
i will never understand why everything on reddit always has to be debate and discussion and every post gets taken seriously like it's a proper idea. what happened to just laughing at a goober?
Word. If you can't figure it out, you're part of the problem.
> . If you wear a fedora, it either means you don't care or know about social signaling (which can be a bad sign), or want (possibly implicily) to signal your closeness to people that wear fedoras.
Or it just means you want to wear a Fedora. Unless you spend a lot of time on 4chan/Reddit/Tumblr, you aren't going to have those associations. To most people it's just a god-damned hat.
An extremely unusual god-damned hat to wear, which is obviously going to give off some sort of association because of that.
Logic doesn't really have much to do with what you find attractive or unattractive though.
Generally fedoras work on older men. If you're an older man, go right ahead. However on younger people who aren't in 1912, they look kinda ridiculous if you're ugly, or douchy if you're good looking.
I'm pretty sure if a GQ model was wearing a fedora no one would find it creepy. The problem is that 99.99% of people who wear fedoras so not look like GQ models
It's not just that. The model might not be able to pull it off that well if he were just out and about. We have different expectations when we see people in photos. Especially professionally good looking people in photos professionally taken to make them look better.
Yeah, he'd have to be like on the streets of Manhattan or somewhere where unusual fashion choices are the norm
Or on the flip-side, they actually have a nice outfit that ties in the fedora nicely, since some designers aren't trying to be edgy and "unique". I'm pretty sure it should be worn with a suit, I know I've read that somewhere.
The fedora itself is symbolic of being creepy though. Yeah, an acne'd dude with a gossamer bloatee wearing a fedora will be looked at more negatively than an extremely attractive dude wearing same, but the attractive dude will also be looked at less negatively if they were both wearing swastika armbands. The fedora will be a negative no matter who's wearing it, because for a lot of people it's irrevocably associated with Nice Guys and dudes who don't understand what chivalry actually was.
> gossamer bloatee
Dogg I cannot brook the gossamer bloatee. That thing is so hell of wispy a spider covets.
Thank you for picking up on this. I was worried no one would.
You can do whatever you want in life.
Yeah, no one would find him creepy, but I can say with a 100% certainty that he would probably look much better without the fedora.
No not really.
If you wear one you know exactly what you're getting into and the 'un-trendyness' of it in society. Extreme example here but hey ho, it's like someone having SS bolts tattooed on themselves and then getting pissy when people keep associating them with Hitler.
Read the thread.
You have to examine the fedora-wearer as well. If you don't know that fedoras are associated with creepy losers, you're probably pretty out of touch with society, which is unattractive. If you know that fedoras are associated with creepy losers and choose to associate yourself with said creepy losers, that's unattractive.
this is what the problem is. the problem isn't that people just arbitrarily hate that hat shape, it's that that hat shape has absolutely dreadful things about the person that chose to put it on their gross empty head.
Quick, what's your first impression when you see a guy with too much gel in his hair and an Ed Hardy shirt?
How about someone who sags their pants to their knees?
Rational or not, we all do it. How people present themselves affects our impression of them, and this particular hat has been adopted by a lot of young men like the OP in the /r/askwomen post. Guys who try to kiss women's hands, say m'lady, and are generally conspicuous in their "chivalry."
Why would you want to wear what all those creepy losers are wearing, ew...
seriously if you're paying even the smallest amount of attention, you know not to do that
lol you're trying to use the l word about fashion
It's not flawed logic, it's statistical inference.
Sorry, but this is a pet peeve of mine. The logic isn't flawed. The general line of reasoning in that thread is:
A implies B
A
Therefore, probably B
In this case, the specific argument being made is:
Guys wearing fedoras are usually losers.
This guy is wearing a fedora,
Therefore, he's probably a loser.
The logic isn't flawed. It's inductive reasoning, which is the same line of reasoning that forms the basis of the scientific method.
Unlike deductive reasoning, inductive reasoning is inherently uncertain. You draw probable conclusions instead of absolute ones, but the logic behind it is perfectly valid.
But, of course, valid logic does not lead you to a valid conclusion if one or more premise is untrue.
It's actually the perfectly crystal clear logic of deductive reasoning.
An example of a deductive argument stolen from the wiki link:
Thus, (edited for better logic)
QED
If you want to attack deductive reasoning philosophically, that's another matter. I'm just pointing out that your statement is in fact, perfectly logical. =)
Your edited version doesn't follow your original reasoning. Converting it back to the first example, it would be:
Which isn't necessarily correct since Socrates could be a manly name for a woman....
A->B doesn't necessarily mean B->A
Your logic only holds up if all creepy losers wear fedoras.
Also, putting smiley face emoticons at the end of statements meant to prove a point make you look like a passive aggressive twatwaffle.
Touche. How about:
Losers, yes. Creepy? Idk about that...
Ain't nothing creepy about jorts or a MLP t-shirt either, am i rite???
Your average fedora wearer these days is wearing it because they think that owning one makes them inherently more classy/interesting and it comes off as ridiculous. It is like someone trying to wear a Victorian era suit and top hat... it just does not work because its too obvious that someone is trying to be what they perceive as classy without actually having the class to do it.
It is an old trend that died out along with the convention of men almost as a rule owning and wearing hats.
It only really works in fictional media set in a period that the style was widespread.
For other examples look at practically any other trend, shell suits, frilly shirts, top hats, monocles, waist coats etc.
Only a very small minority of people can pull it off and not seem weird and most of those are famous people that can almost make looking like shit reasonable.
This actually hits the nail on the head. There's ways to make a fedora look good, but typically that comes with wearing a full suit. What I see with a fedora isn't even close; it's paired with T-Shirts, cargo pants, jeans, polos, and the fedora is just too much.
Those that wear fedoras are trying to bring about "class" by injecting a nice hat with a shoddy get-up, but as far as the mannerisms that come with it? No idea where that's coming from. You'd think with all the opposition and hostility towards it, the fad and attitude would die out.
even with a full suit it looks out of place. Its just not in fashion anymore
I thought mine went great with a helicopter
Yep, not gonna lie, works well with helicopter, Might start a new trend...
Btw, - just realized that was a risky click.
Edit: Don't wear a hat myself but at least yours is a real fedora. - Why are so many creepy weirdo's running around with trilby's or whatever, calling them fedoras and thinking that it makes them look anything less than a Connery era James Bond Villain?
> Btw, - just realized that was a risky click.
Haha! I didn't even realize that double-entendre.
Well that's cause you went full Indiana Jones
I wouldn't even necessarily define that as a fedora.
It's not quite a traditional one, but it's what Disneyland called it in the Indiana Jones gift shop. The biggest difference is the curve of the brim, everything else is pretty common to fedoras.
Huh I was always under the impression that his hat was not a fedora. A quick google search proved me wrong. TIL.
It definitely works with the helicopter. It also helps that you're fulfilling that good old Internet rule:
Be attractive.
Don't be unattractive.
It works with a coat. But like any hat, there's no real reason to wear it inside.
> typically that comes with wearing a full suit.
i'd go one further and say that you need to be wearing that suit around other dudes in suits, and even then it's a little dicey. smoking a cig in the rain outside the wedding with your buddies? could be a good look. on the bus? fuck no.
You would take it off on the bus anyways, since you don't wear hats indoors. They're outerwear.
tell that to reel big fish, butthole.
>it just does not work because its too obvious that someone is trying to be what they perceive as classy without actually having the class to do it.
Bingo.
A list of articles of clothing off the top of my head with intense or moderately intense associations, either positive, negative, or neutral:
fedora
leather jacket, especially the double rider
banana hammock
denim jacket
suspenders
tighty whities (briefs)
pipe (well, not really an article of clothing)
"hipster" glasses aka wayfarers (I think? could definitely be wrong)
cowboy boots
graphic t-shirts
belts with massive buckles
bowties
skinny jeans
hightop sneakers
combat boots
scarves on men
Spandex/yoga pants
uggs
crocs
I could probably double the length of this list, but it's starting to take time to think of more examples.
In truth, almost every piece of clothing has an association, stereotype, or assumption that goes along with it.
> scarves on men
I wear a twelve foot scarf to school everyday. Fuck that, I'm warm.
I love scarfs.
I understand clothes have stereotypes associated with them, I said that in my comment.
However, aside from the fedora, wearing any of those pieces of clothing up there will not automatically result in backlash.
Crocs. Unless you are in surgery or a professional kitchen there is no reason on this earth to wear them.
> suspenders
> tighty whities (briefs)
So what is the association with these two?
Tighty whities are typically seen as 'for children' and being worn by an adult can be considered by some as a sign that they never 'grew up' properly.
suspenders are usually associated with being a geek.
I think it's worth pointing out that there's a difference between tighty whities and briefs in general. Some men look sexy as hell in properly fitting briefs. It's those Walter Whities that are the problem.
Tighty whities are also, fyi, super fucking unflattering to your manly bits. Boxer briefs dog.
> wayfarers (I think? could definitely be wrong)
correct
What's wrong with the denim jacket?
> combat boots
What's the association or stereotype with combat boots? I wear mine every day.
You're either really punk or planning Columbine.
>Briefs
What.
The style of underwear is properly known as 'briefs'.
If they have superheroes on them, they're 'underoos'
And if you're 27 and wearing underoos, you're either mentally disabled or fucking awesome. No inbetween.
I argue that there is an intersect between the two, however. I know some fucking awesome mentally disabled people.
Walter White, old dudes who have long abandoned style.
> However, I can't think of any other example where that suddenly means that anyone who wears the stereotypical piece of clothing must embody the stereotype.
Baggy/sagging pants?
You don't wear a fedora with a MLP shirt and a neckbeard.
>However, maybe this is just an opinion shared by no one else, but I don't think the fedora is inherently unattractive.
I think a fedora can be very attractive on the right man. Let's take a look!
Michael Jackson looked pretty cool tipping his fedora.
Indiana Jones can tip his fedora my way any day.
Gregory Peck is insanely hot in his fedora, smoking a cigarette.
Hugh Jackman can wear a fedora every day if he wants.
Brad Pitt is not wearing a fedora here but this is the hottest hat tip in cinema history.
Unless you are one of those gentleman or look like one, it's probably not a good idea to wear one because you end up looking like this.
You must remember that "creepy" generally does not mean alarming or macabre in this context. It means someone who is unattractive and whose attention is unwanted.
> It means someone who is unattractive and whose attention is unwanted.
I think there is also a socially awkward and unable to pick up on the social cues that indicate that this attention is unwanted is also an important component of creepy.
Huh, so then the hate is based off of the opinion that fedoras are always unnactractive?
Ok, I guess I just don't agree with that, but that's a matter of taste.
No, it is that fedora-hate comes from it now being synonymous with a certain awkward socially inept type of nerd. They look ridiculous as the hat is a transparent attempt to add class and it almost appears that the hat is wearing them, rather than the reverse.
When people "pull off" a hat it isn't mentioned as it complements the rest of the look. The fedora on these men is very conspicuous as they will often have clothing that doesn't work and awkward body language which makes their "gentleman" attire look quite foolish.
The idea of acting overly proper to impress women is now inextricably tied to these less than attractive men who are not being genuine, but rather putting on a cookie cutter personality they use as they are insecure.
Lots of men can pull off the fedora look. However, the vast majority of these would have been considered attractive before the hat.
Monocles. Maybe only one of my eyes has problems. Maybe I don't dive into swimming pools filled with gold coins like Scrooge McDuck and Thurston Howell the Third. But, they ruined it for everyone.
The fedora is worn mostly by creeps ergo those wearing fedoras are assumed to be creeps. If you think society isnt about judging the shit out of people for every reason including clothing, then you should grow up.
Because hats went out of style many decades ago.
Wearing a Fedora today is like wearing pantaloons.
Depends on location and culture, i can tell you definitely though hats are not out of style in some places.
I have to agree on the fact that in the USA hats are out of style, and wearing one makes you look weird.
The real problem is, most people don't wear a fedora correctly. You don't wear a fedora with cargo shorts or jeans. It's an accessory to a suit, just like a tie. Also through trench coats into this as well. People wear those when they shouldn't as much as they wear fedoras (sometimes you can even see people wearing them together while sporting t-shirts and cargo shorts).
I really can't imagine many people looking good in a fedora, suit or no suit. Maybe middle-aged overweight mobsters. Definitely no one under 35, unless they are already outrageously attractive.
It used to be an accessory, now however, the age of hats is dead. RIP Bowlers, Top hats, Fedoras, and Newsboy hats. Go out into the open urban wilderness and try to find me one professional looking guy who is wearing a fedora with his suit.
Well hats (at least some of the classic ones) seem to be making a slow comeback.
Yes, they are making a comeback with slobs that wear them with jorts, or with poorly fitting suits that just look wrong.
That is part of the problem.
Totally. I won't wear my flat cap unless it's cold and fits my wardrobe. It'd just be nice to have a nice cold-weather hat that goes well with a variety of styles.
edit: it's the "baseball cap" that is in vogue at the moment of course, from rural farmers to urban chic. It's just nice to have that variety here and there, as long as it's aesthetically awesome.
Most rational people don't really care. It's just a joke to them. There are however a lot of irrational people who really dislike them. You shouldn't listen to those people.
edit: I guess I should clarify that I still think Fedoras are lame as fuck.
Let your fedora flag fly high, bro!
It's just become this thing that's reached critical mass among a certain group of guys. (Supposedly. I don't think I've really seen one - not that I'm on the lookout.) Because it's a hat, and because we tend to focus on the head area of the body, it's that much more noticeable.
But in and of itself is the fedora terrible or unfashionable? No. Plenty of people can and do comfortably rock the fedora on a regular basis.