AMA on the topic of rape and the confusion around orgasm and arousal brings some emotionally charged arguments about the "rape fantasy" (np.reddit.com)
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27 ups - 17 downs = 10 votes
84 comments submitted at 17:51:50 on Jan 25, 2014 by Monolithus
The therapist already acknowledged a large % of victims have admitted to enjoying it, the downvotes just prove that the majority of people, like yourself, are idiots.
I'm gonna copy and paste some irrefutable logic, thus far two people have admitted defeat in rather honorable ways. If you have any true rebuttals besides the expected downvote, feel free to offer them.
My point is simple, and factual. A certain percentage of woman fantasize about rape. A certain percentage of woman experience orgasm during rape. Therefore, a certain percentage of woman enjoy being raped (obviously some small fraction of the woman who orgasmed and/or have fantasized about it)
Even if it's only 5% of the woman who orgasmed during raped enjoyed it, my point is that there's no fucking way it's 0%, even though that would make us all feel better. There's no sense in putting out bullshit "facts" on a topic like this just because it's taboo.
If some asshole came up to me on the street and tickled me and then ran away, I can honestly say I might end up enjoying that experience even if I didn't want it to occur in the 1st place and I didn't condone tickling strangers. Are you following me?
>I've only taken personal exception to a component of your arguments that suggest because people fantasize about things means it is something they want.
I can see that, I was simply pointing out the fact that when the vast majority of people fantasize about something, we would enjoy if it came true and that the same logic would suggest at least some woman enjoy a certain rape situations. By giving out an estimate of 5% for the number of woman who enjoyed it after an orgasm, I was implying that I agree that the majority of woman would not enjoy the experience even if they have fantasized about it or orgasmed during it.
What scientific data says that woman who get raped by an attractive man to orgasm can't enjoy that rape? For that matter what data even says that the number isn't something large like 75% of those women, but we don't know because of the shame factor?
Another hypothetical, the very fact society says "IT IS WRONG WRONG WRONG TO ENJOY ANY RAPE" perhaps leads to vastly more damage in the long run to rape victims if it is in fact true (it is) that a certain % enjoy being raped to orgasm by an attractive man -- and the associated shame and cognitive dissonance damages these victims more than the rape itself ever could? I think the therapist would agree with me here that this is true.
Downvote away you circlecjerking kiddies
I had such a sad you ignored me while demolishing all those other inferior commenters. Anyway, my point. You're making a demented strawman argument. They're not saying 0.0000% of rape victims ever enjoyed being raped. They're saying the fact that the victim orgasmed does not indicate they enjoyed it.
But you just carry on frothing at the mouth on that tangent if it justifies your own warped sense of priorities.
Didn't mean to ignore anyone buddy, sorry about that. Too many replies so I missed some.
> They're saying the fact that the victim orgasms does not indicate they enjoyed it.
No Shit. I can literally copy and paste all rebuttals to this, there's only a few and they are all so weak.
> "Just because someone orgasms during an assault doesn't mean they didn't enjoy it." If you agree with that statement, then we have no real point of disagreement besides perhaps the level of your reading comprehension.
Christ you're like an eel.
The original poster on that thread, /u/Childtherapist, where did they say that no rape victim has ever enjoyed it even just a bit?
Because that's what you're arguing, but that's not what they're saying. Hence why I'm calling it a strawman argument. Do you know what that is Mr. "Logic"?
What's upsetting people is that you have created an argument that in someways justifies some rape as long as they just happen to pick a tiny proportion of the population with an aberrant sexual kink. It's not hard imagine you're using it to justify your own behaviour. They're inferring you're a rapist looking for justifications for what you've done.
edit: and before you get there. I'm not saying rape fantasy is aberrant, I'm saying enjoying an actual non-consensual rape is aberrant (i.e. a tiny percentage )
Thanks, I too, was wondering when did /u/ChildTherapist stated that.
He was asked about "why it is wrong to assume that a rape victim who experienced arousal and/or orgasm derived sexual satisfaction from what occurred." and answered that it's wrong to assume that because it's a physical reaction.
All I see is someone arguing against something that he stated himself, which is, even with a million of factual evidence and bulletproof logical reasoning, quite silly.
What's funny is that I simply misread the statement, I thought it was being implied that it's somehow impossible for women to enjoy rape.
The funnier part though, is that I was legitimately arguing with a ton of people who were arguing the fact that 0% of women enjoy rape. That's why I had to become so deeply entrenched in my position, people were claiming it was false.
If this indeed is a strawman (I'm not going to go and read her original post, never did) then blame the top level comment the therapist responded to
>(I'm not going to go and read her original post, never did) then blame the top level comment the therapist responded to
Heaven forbid you accept one iota of responsibility for your fucking mistake. I guess reading isn't a big part of infallible logic.
Calm down cowboy, and scroll down a few inches.
> What's funny is that I simply misread the statement, I thought it was being implied that it's somehow impossible for women to enjoy rape.
> The funnier part though, is that I was legitimately arguing with a ton of people who were arguing the fact that 0% of women enjoy rape. That's why I had to become so deeply entrenched in my position, people were claiming it was false.
You’re a godamned child. I have no idea what age you are, and I don’t care, a quick skim of the first page of your profile tells me all I want to know about you. That’ll happen more as you get older, you make snap judgements. You realise forming a considered opinion is still more likely then not to be wrong, so you don’t waste time on it when the odds of making the correct assessment quickly are about the same anyway.
You also become better at spotting telltale indications than when you’re young and overwhelmed by new experiences. You still however look for something to base your opinion on.
You, xethus, do not.
You think that winning an argument, no matter how inconsequential, is all. That’s why you pick your fights and construct arguments that may not be 100% incorrect, but are still upsetting and objectionable to some. You didn’t even read the original post. You’re shifting blame for your misunderstanding to someone you didn’t even reply to, and even still didn’t say what you think they’re saying. You’re building a lifetime of petty victories in order to avoid occasionally admitting that dull thump in your belly when you realise you were hopelessly wrong.
You lay out a “logical” argument while being wilfully ignorant of the position you're arguing against. That’s not logical. You cherry pick your rebuttals, because you can’t stand to concede an inch of what ground you think you have,
I grew up in a household that had a culture of arguing, and it took me a long time to realise that such inconsequential one-upmanship didn’t enhance your stature, rather it undermined it. But that conditioned urge to do battle when spotting a tiny kink in the battlements is difficult to resist.
But “I won” is not a victory when you have gained nothing, and a defeat when you have undermined your own standing by being a dick and not realising it.
I had the good fortune to meet a partner who couldn’t argue for shit, who grew up in a household where no dissension was allowed. She literally couldn't get the words out to argue with me. While she’d blubber a garbled response, I’d try to figure out what she was trying to say, which meant looking at the situation from her perspective. And once I was seeing things from her perspective, the argument was lost.
But you refuse to see things from other peoples perspective. If you did you might have to concede your petty victory. So instead you imagine their perspective, one you can defeat or at least refuse to acknowledge as legitimate.
Let me be clear. The people on that other thread think you are a rapist. My wife just asked my what I was doing, and I said “arguing with a rapist”. That is the consequence of the petty argument you have constructed. Are you okay with that?
Calm down cowboy, and scroll down a few inches.
> What's funny is that I simply misread the statement, I thought it was being implied that it's somehow impossible for women to enjoy rape.
> The funnier part though, is that I was legitimately arguing with a ton of people who were arguing the fact that 0% of women enjoy rape. That's why I had to become so deeply entrenched in my position, people were claiming it was false.
Copypasta regarding the tired and immature "racist" accusations:
> You've certainly created a narrative about me haven't you? One of the things I pride myself in is how objectively I can view myself. I've worked pretty hard to make this profile anonymous over 7 years, if I was a rapist, I'd say so. I'll even say that if I believed 100% of women would enjoy it if I raped them, I'd maybe even do it. Of course I know that is far from true. I'll admit my other faults, I can be aggressive and vengeful but almost always to bad people. Bullies for instance, I know it's almost ironic but I like to bully bullies and other bad people. The other irony is that I could see myself killing a rapist that sexually assaulted someone I loved. Those are my faults out in the open. So potential killer, sure, but rapist, sorry, you're wrong there.
> You are correct in that I like sexual domination though, but it's weird, I only like to dominate girls that enjoy it, and nothing serious, I just like having one hand choking a girl's neck just enough to create the pleasure effect due to the reduced blood flow. That little fetish really only developed once I found a girl that asked me to do that because she found out on her own that she liked that. I'm very empathetic as well, as hard as that will be for you to believe. The world isn't black and white. There can be aggressive dominating people who hurt only bad people and treat good people well.
> One of the things I pride myself in is how objectively I can view myself.
Nope
>I'm very empathetic
Hell no.
>I'll admit my other faults, I can be aggressive and vengeful but almost always to bad people.
ha ha ha. Even your "faults" are for GREAT JUSTICE
I'm done.
I'm shocked, you somehow refuted every single point I made with strong coherent logic. Bravo, you win hands down man.
Just kidding lol @ the angry verbal diarrhea
>One of the things I pride myself in is how objectively I can view myself.
Too funny.
> A reply with no substance
Too funny.
You're still awake! Lets play 'Objective Self Analysis'.
If I sodomized a man with a broomhandle while they happened to have an erection, did they enjoy it? If they did enjoy it would you say they wanted it? If they wanted it, did I even rape them?
Would you say this argument is rape apology?
Would your answer be different if you were the person violated?
EDIT: Too graphic and confrontational for my taste - pronoun change.
You are not being made fun of because people disagree with the statement "Of the millions of people who have been raped at least 1 of them probably enjoyed it." You are being made fun of for the following reasons.
That statement is vacuous and contributes nothing to the conversation.
You keep taking issue with the notion that a rape victim orgasming or having prior rape fantasies does not indicate that they enjoyed being raped.
You aggressively attack anyone who disagrees with you.
You replied to multiple comments pointing out that fantasizing about something does not necessarily indicate a desire for that thing to actually happen with "I have fantasies of becoming a millionaire and fucking supermodels. Guess what, I fantasize about that shit because I want it to happen." Which is just a hilarious and ridiculous argument.
It's come to the point where I need to do very little actual writing and lots of copypasta since almost every poor rebuttal to this has already been presented to me.
> That statement is vacuous and contributes nothing to the conversation.
...unless you happen to be an actual rape victim, but fuck those people right?...
"Who gives a shit? Well, people that care about rape victims for one. The very fact society says "IT IS WRONG WRONG WRONG TO ENJOY ANY RAPE" perhaps leads to vastly more damage in the long run to rape victims if it is in fact true (it is) that a certain % enjoy being raped to orgasm by an attractive man -- and the associated shame and cognitive dissonance damages these victims more than the rape itself ever could?"
> You keep taking issue with the notion that a rape victim orgasming or having prior rape fantasies does not indicate that they enjoyed being raped.
Wrong, I take issue with the dozens of people that have been arguing with me that 0% of women enjoy rape. I take issue with lies and bullshit.
> You aggressively attack anyone who disagrees with you.
I aggressively attack anyone spewing false information to the public.
> You replied to multiple comments pointing out that fantasizing about something does not necessarily indicate a desire for that thing to actually happen with
"I was simply pointing out the fact that when the vast majority of people fantasize about something, we would enjoy if it came true and that the same logic would suggest at least some woman enjoy a certain rape situations. By giving out an estimate of 5% for the number of woman who enjoyed it after an orgasm, I was implying that I agree that the majority of woman would not enjoy the experience even if they have fantasized about it or orgasmed during it. I'm not sure how this is escaping people."
>> You keep taking issue with the notion that a rape victim orgasming or having prior rape fantasies does not indicate that they enjoyed being raped.
> Wrong, I take issue with the dozens of people that have been arguing with me that 0% of women enjoy rape. I take issue with lies and bullshit.
You have wrongly said that it's infallible logic to deduce from some people orgasming during rape or having rape fantasies that some people will enjoy rape. You absolutely do take issue with it. You have taken issue with it in several comments. You cannot back-pedal on this. You simply cannot. You may take issue with the claim that 0% of women enjoy rape, but you also take extreme issue with the idea that one might see that some people orgasm & some people have rape fantasies does not logically entail that some women enjoy rape. This is patently not logically valid.
Your argument has neither the virtue of having a point or being correct. You've attempted a bit of evolutionary storytelling, assuming that it's likely for women, because there is some evidence that they undergo physiological genital arousal as a vestigial evolutionary manner of coping with rape, that evolutionarily many would've evolved to enjoy this. No expert on evolution would give any credence whatsoever to this claim, unless it were backed by evidence.
Provide evidence that some women enjoy rape. Actual evidence. Otherwise, shut up & get over it. Move on with your life & stop telling people that they are wrong for not believing something you can neither effectively argue or prove.
> Provide evidence that some women enjoy rape. Actual evidence. Otherwise, shut up & get over it.
Sure.
> Anyways, I remember being terrified, bewildered, but also enjoying it. And to this day, years and years later, I never realised that was a slightly common thing. Or that there were others out there who experienced the same thing. I guess it made me feel guilty and, quite frankly, rather ashamed. Because if I enjoyed it, then surely I was the naughty one, right?
... therapist's reply confirming this:
> Your experience is VERY common and it is always a surprise to younger people I work with how common it is. I always have to walk a fine line between validating their experience, letting them know they are not alone and not scaring them that what they suffered is what the world at large is like. Thank you for being willing to share your very personal story here.
You see like the type not convinced by evidence and logic though, so it'll be interesting what you come back with haha
>> Anyways, I remember being terrified, bewildered, but also enjoying it. And to this day, years and years later, I never realised that was a slightly common thing. Or that there were others out there who experienced the same thing. I guess it made me feel guilty and, quite frankly, rather ashamed. Because if I enjoyed it, then surely I was the naughty one, right?
Great. You've provided evidence. It's anecdotal, but good work.
> You see like the type not convinced by evidence and logic though, so it'll be interesting what you come back with haha
Now, it's time for you to explain why you peddled the "infallible logic" argument as being valid when it is clearly logically invalid. Most people don't give a flying fuck whether 0% of woman enjoy rape or not. They're clearly taking issue with your flawed argumentation: your bad logic & your appeal to evolutionary storytelling when evolutionary biology is ruled by empiricism & not rationalism.
This is my big interest in the whole thing. And I want an explanation for why you shouted people down for not accepting arguments that are invalid. Please explain it.
Wow, you write a long winded reply demanding proof, and once I club you in the face with a 2x4 of proof, not even the slightest apology?
> Now, it's time for you to explain why you peddled the "infallible logic" argument as being valid
"Who gives a shit? Well, people that care about rape victims for one. The very fact society says "IT IS WRONG WRONG WRONG TO ENJOY ANY RAPE" perhaps leads to vastly more damage in the long run to rape victims if it is in fact true (it is) that a certain % enjoy being raped to orgasm by an attractive man -- and the associated shame and cognitive dissonance damages these victims more than the rape itself ever could?"
Christ you're dense. Don't you understand that the people like you who tell women it's impossible to enjoy a rape are only making the cognitive dissonance and shame so much worse if they did? This isn't a hard concept guy.
> Wow, you write a long winded reply demanding proof, and once I club you in the face with a 2x4 of proof, not even the slightest apology?
Apologise for what? Putting you to task for asserting something without evidence on the basis of flawed logic & bunk evolutionary arguments? The evidence you've provided is something you picked up after you made worthless arguments & shouted people down for not believing them. I think you need to apologise to everyone you've argued with that you called stupid, to whom you did not present actual evidence.
> "Who gives a shit? Well, people that care about rape victims for one. The very fact society says "IT IS WRONG WRONG WRONG TO ENJOY ANY RAPE" perhaps leads to vastly more damage in the long run to rape victims if it is in fact true (it is) that a certain % enjoy being raped to orgasm by an attractive man -- and the associated shame and cognitive dissonance damages these victims more than the rape itself ever could?"
Great. This is your motivation. By why?, I didn't mean your motivation (I'm sorry for being unclear), but why you provided a flawed argument & then insulted people for their not accepting it. I asked why you asserted something as being "flawless logic" that is not at all valid. Can you explain why you did that, even if you intentions were good?
>Don't you understand that the people like you who tell women it's impossible to enjoy a rape are only making the cognitive dissonance and shame so much worse if they did?
Where did I say that?
> blah blah blah i was wrong but i dont care blah blah blah
Didn't think I'd actually get an apology so that's ok.
> why you provided a flawed argument
What is part of my argument is flawed or untrue, and what evidence supports this? After the 2x4 I smacked you with, at least throw some twigs at me or something...
Some women orgasm during rape. Some woman fantasise about rape. Therefore some women enjoy rape. You made this argument several times.
Women have a vestigial evolutionary response to rape that causes them to undergo physiological genital arousal. Therefore it's reasonable to believe that women evolved to enjoy rape. Again, several times.
I fantasise about being a millionaire & fucking models. If this happened to me, I would enjoy it. Therefore some women who fantasise about rape enjoy rape. Several times.
You persistently called people stupid or dense for not accepting these arguments when they clearly hold no merit. Why did you do that & how can you possibly defend it?
I'm still waiting to hear where I claimed that no woman could enjoy rape.
I'm still waiting to hear why I should apologise for pointing out your painfully weak argumentation.