"Denmark may soon be the first country in the world to issue a ban on non-therapeutic circumcision of boys. Calls it "Genital Mutilation". Meanwhile, Israel tries hard to block changes that are broadly perceived in Europe as a clear step forward in children's human rights." (self.SubredditDrama)
SubredditDrama
91 ups - 45 downs = 46 votes
The title of this /r/worldnews post is all you really need to know to guess the massive drama it contains. Circumcision drama. US vs Europe. Anti-Semiticism. Typical /r/worldnews xenophobia. Its a goddamn blood bath in there.
To start, full thread: http://np.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/1w0z4l/denmarkmaysoonbethefirstcountryinthe/
I'm gonna start laying down links to comments, please join in. There's too much here for one person to collect.
No True Scotsman crops up right away
Are female and male circumcision the same thing?
Jewish redditor defends the tradition of the briss
There is so much. And its growing very quickly. Drama bomb, muthafuckas.
Editing with more content:
Is getting your daughter's ears pierced the same as circumcision?
Worth it if it makes the Jews and Muslims leave!
Are circumcision and abortion the same thing?
Getting your children circumcised makes you a psychopath who follows a false god.
245 comments submitted at 15:15:07 on Jan 24, 2014 by Erra0
These threads are always the same.
>Uncircumcised guy: Circumcision is mutilation and causes massive physiological damage.
>Circumcised guy: I don't give a fuck.
>Circumcised guy: I like my penis.
>Uncircumcised guy: You only like it because you just don't know anything else. "Intact" dicks are much better.
>Circumcised guy: Oh, have you been circumcised before?
>Uncircumcised guy: That's our broken logic, you can't use it!
That's not broken logic.
Do I need to lose my hand to know that it would suck? No. On the other hand, a guy who lost his hand at birth might not know exactly what he's missing, especially not if he lives in a society where it's normal to only have one hand.
Yeah, and if your hand was a useless flap of skin, this would make perfect sense. Go fight real abuse please, you obviously have the drive for it.
The foreskin is not a flap and most of it isn't skin. The inside of it is mucosa tissue loaded with specialized nerves, including fine-touch sensitive Meissner's corpuscles. Do you know what the frenulum is? How about the ridged band? No? Shocking.
I'm not a urologist. I am minus one foreskin, though, which qualifies me to speak on behalf of my experience, no?
No, because you seem to have no idea whatsoever what a foreskin is. How can you argue about the functions of an organ without knowing what it actually is?
Okay. What can you do that I can't do, and how can you demonstrate this?
Well I asked for examples. All I got was the possibility of less sex pleasure and the possibility of ED. Hardly side effects worth campaigning over. I don't have to be an expert to know that my dong works just fine as is.
The foreskin isn't useless, so it does make perfect sense.
I try to fight all kinds of abuse when I see it, but this is about addressing shitty logic on the internet.
Really? What does one use it for?
Wrapping your forskin around another mans penis and slowly jerking him off with it.
Ahh, the ol' cock-dock.
i've also heard you can fill it with assorted jellies and jams in the event that you become lost in the woods.
Sounds like quite an experience, but I'll just substitute with silly putty.
Ever wonder why lotion is associated with masturbation in the US, but not in Europe?
It's for masturbation. That's why circumcision was popularised in the US to begin with, because they thought that male masturbation led to insanity:
http://www.circinfo.org/Circumcisionandmasturbation.html
It's also for protecting the glans, which is why circumcised men have reduced sexual sensivity, which eventually leads to early erectile dysfunction.
Regardless, it's not "broken logic" to know what lacking something that you have is like. You don't need to be blind to be able to know what that's like, just close your eyes. On the other hand, someone who was born blind will never know what it's like to see.
I am circumcised and have never used a lotion nor have I experienced any erectile problems. I also have a physical connection to 5000 years of ancestry, which is amazingly cool if you think about it.
If lotion and Viagra are the only downsides, I'm still pretty unconvinced by your argument that my parents abused me.
>I am circumcised and have never used a lotion nor have I experienced any erectile problems.
It depends on the type of circumcision, some leave more skin than others. The point is that it becomes more difficult, with most having to use lotion.
Erectile problems come later in life.
>I also have a physical connection to 5000 years of ancestry, which is amazingly cool if you think about it.
Personally I'd find it more cool if the connection was less about cutting off penis parts, but I'm an atheist.
>If lotion and Viagra are the only downsides, I'm still pretty unconvinced by your argument that my parents abused me.
No one made this argument. Why are you trying to make it personal?
The thing is more that there aren't actually any upsides, and only downsides.
Wow, an atheist being brave on reddit. Never thought I'd see the day.
The upsides don't matter. If your argument is abuse then you have to prove lasting physical harm, and in this case you have to bear in mind millennia of men having the procedure and still leading healthy, successful lives without any hint of PTSD or any other condition that derive from actual abuse.
If you say an act perpetrated by my parents, and indeed, my entire lineage is child abuse, it becomes a personal argument. Don't pretend it isn't.
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Man, I will take ED over a UTI any day of the week. That doesn't hurt, and we can medicate it.
You'd rather have erectile dysfunction than use soap?
Hey, it's your life.
Yeah dude, I clean out the inside of my penis with soap every day, dumbass.
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It's weird and seems out of character to me that this counter-argument is just flatly ignored and downvoted.
I mean, I'm certainly not going to demand anyone agree with anything, but it seems like a pretty fair/analogous comparison. I'd at least expect something this heavily downvoted to have someone explaining why they disagree, rather than what appears to be a lot of bitter "there's nothing wrong with me" downvotes.
>It's weird and seems out of character to me that this counter-argument is just flatly ignored and downvoted.
It's not that out of character for a subreddit that is mostly American. Being for circumcision in the US is the status quo, after all.
Also, I think SRD tends to skew a little older than the rest of reddit. And since circumcision rates are dropping, the older the crowd, the more pro-circumcision they'll be.
but i give a fuck :"((
Then you have bigger issues than your dick.
That's still pretty small...
>Circumcised guy: I don't like being circumcised
>Defensive circumcised guy: You can only dislike being circumcised if you have other issues
You're right, these threads are always the same
thats mean :(
It's hard to make something an issue when most people who have had the surgery (the "victims") don't think there's anything wrong or give a fuck. I've never heard of this being an issue for any man I've ever known but it appears weekly on reddit. I'm circumcised and couldn't be happier!
Usually the people who really REALLY care have some sort of severe body image issues.
That's why the most effective troll tactics are almost always the posts declaring that cut/uncut dicks are ugly. That really "gets under their skin" if you will.
>Usually the people who really REALLY care have some sort of severe body image issues.
This is mostly true for the people for circumcision, though.
People against it usually care because they care about children being allowed to make their own choices when it comes to unnecessary procedures.
People for it seem to care because they have body image issues.
They're fucking infants, they can't choose anything.
Yep, which is why you shouldn't perform unnecessary and harmful surgery on them!
By your logic, parents should never make any decisions regarding their infants ever because it damages the infant's "agency." I can't believe my RES shows I've upvoted an anti-circumcision nut like you 15 times, you people are the most hilariously insecure whiners on the planet. Being cut is fine, being uncut is fine, both have health benefits and both have drawbacks. Maybe you should spend a little less time trying to police other peoples' dicks.
>By your logic, parents should never make any decisions regarding their infants ever because it damages the infant's "agency." I can't believe my RES shows I've upvoted an anti-circumcision nut like you 15 times, you people are the most hilariously insecure whiners on the planet. Being cut is fine, being uncut is fine, both have health benefits and both have drawbacks.
No.
By my logic, parents should never make any decisions that lead to performing unnecessary and harmful surgery on children. That's what I've said three times in a row now, but your insecurity isn't letting you see past your biases.
There aren't any meaningful health benefits to being cut, nor are there any drawbacks to not being cut. That's the medical consensus, not the ranting of a "nut."
>Maybe you should spend a little less time trying to police other peoples' dicks.
Isn't that exactly what I'm arguing against? People making decisions for other people's penises without their consent?
Are you really so insecure that you have to make that about your own penis, which no one's even talking about?
You have literally zero idea what you're talking about. I have zero body image issues, I'm a fucking Arnold Jr at this point, and I really care about circumcision.
People who have circumcised dicks and say they don't mind are like people born deaf who say they don't care. You don't know any different and you blindly place your faith in some tradition that started thousands of years ago when circumcision was a healthy way to ensure hygiene.
Do you also not eat pig because it used to be very bad for you? There's just simply no reason to not let an adult decide for themselves if they want circumcision. This shouldn't even be a god damn debate. You don't have the right to decide what parts of the body your child get's to keep. Especially parts that increase sexual pleasure.
> I'm a fucking Arnold Jr at this point
I think you just proved OPs point.
You have literally zero idea what you're talking about. I have zero body image issues, I'm the fucking Bear Jew at this point, and I really care about circumcision.
People who have uncircumcised dicks and say they don't mind are like people born with a flap of skin hanging from their dick who say they don't care. You don't know any different and you blindly place your faith in some tradition that started thousands of years ago before circumcision was a healthy way to ensure hygiene.
Do you also not eat pig because it used to be very bad for you? There's just simply no reason to let an infant decide for themselves if they want circumcision. This shouldn't even be a god damn debate. Babies don't have the mental capacity to decide what medical procedures they can and can't undergo at birth. Especially parts that increase sexual pleasure.
> I'm a fucking Arnold Jr at this point, and I really care about circumcision.
Literally the funniest sentence I have ever read.
Please, tell me more about how sex is less enjoyable for me than it is for you.
> I'm a fucking Arnold Jr at this point, and I really care about circumcision.
There's a joke to be made here about steroids and penis issues but I just can't get all the pieces in place. Give me a minute, don't go anywhere.
We apparently should be in the million dick march. I'm flatted so many strangers on the internet have taken an interest in my pecker, but its getting creepy now.
The creepy part to me is they go out of their way to tell me there's something wrong with my dick. I love my dick the way it is and I don't feel mutilated one bit. It's frankly insulting they trying to pin my dick to some immoral crime.
I love that there's somebody going through downvoting everybody who dares to defend their horrid, mutilated frankenstein penis.
"How dare you be proud, happy, and fullfilled with your circumcised penis!"
Probably because it's ridiculous to try to turn an debate about children's rights into a conversation about your own penis.
(Just a guess, though.)
You claim this is a debate about children's rights, and yet up above you argued against circumcision exclusively using "but the sex is better" and "you can get ED" type arguments. You trot out the defense-of-children card when it's convenient, but the rest of your comments make it pretty clear that this argument is, at least for you, more about telling other dudes why your dick is superior to theirs.
>You claim this is a debate about children's rights, and yet up above you argued against circumcision exclusively using "but the sex is better" and "you can get ED" type arguments.
It's a debate about a lot of things, and I try to mention all the problems with circumcision. The problem is that it's so common sense to me that you don't genitally mutilate newborns without their consent that it's hard for me to understand why others don't. I take for granted that people will understand that.
>You trot out the defense-of-children card when it's convenient, but the rest of your comments make it pretty clear that this argument is, at least for you, more about telling other dudes why your dick is superior to theirs.
You're projecting, hard, which supports my guess that arguments for circumcision are based on male self-esteem.
If I was interested in my dick being superior to others, and if circumcision made dicks inferior, why would I argue against circumcision? Wouldn't I argue for it?
Hey, it's their war to fight. More power to them. I'm going to keep making light of some of their rhetoric, however.
apparently our dicks are both victim and executioner. I can personally attest to mine never commiting foreskin genocide.
I dunno man, sometimes at night and look down and all I see is the blood and gore of circumcised foreskins arranged like some Khornate ritual from WH40k. It whispers it's desire for blood like some malevolent beast! I thought it was normal but maybe these anti-circers are on to something. /s
Wow way to derail the actual issue. Stop getting defensive like a little kid and think about what is morally right. You either think it's ok for parents/guardians to cut off certain parts of their child's body before the child is aware of what is going on, or you don't. Which camp are you? Stop making this about how you feel ganged up on.
> I'm circumcised and couldn't be happier!
Still over a hundred babies die each year in USA alone due to complications from MGM and a lot more get non-fatal problems from it. They are a minority, but because it is an unnecessary procedure, what is the point of that risk?
I was medically circumcised. The procedure would exist and create dangerous opportunities either way. If it's really such a small number like that I think you can find many other causes that will help prevent child/infant deaths than trying to incriminate a basic medical procedure.
MGM? Really? Grow up.
So....what if a circumsized woman liked hers? That is a ludicrous argument, there is no going back and you have to deal with what you have. Of course you will learn to be happy with it.
Comparing female circumcision to male circumcision make your argument stupidly ridiculous.
This isn't a comparison of male and female circumcision. It's an analogy used to show why the logic doesn't make sense to some people. I suppose we could drag religion into this for comparison, but that would be brave.
Why is that? There are many women that think FGM is the right thing to do, have had it done to themselves and insist on their daughters to go through with it.
There are types of FGM that are completely analogous - we still ban them, because ethics.
>your a dodo head and wrong. I won't say what, you just are
The argument was stupid, it is an irreversible procedure with no real benefit, the person being OK with it is a failed argument.
[deleted]
I would still not be OK with babies dicks being hacked off. No matter how OK with it that guy was.
Its very, very easy for me to be consistent with this logic, how about you?
Eunuchs/castrate were probably quite happy with having been castrated :)
Heh. I just blindly wandered into thread a couple of hours ago and accidentally became a cliche. I should have known to check here first.
I always love that argument, not just for circumcision but for anything.
"I don't give a fuck. Now, time to spend the next 5 hours writing 10 pages worth of crap in 100 child comments while downvoting everyone who disagrees with me to prove that I don't give a fuck."
Yep. I'm circumcised and I don't give a fuck. It's easier to keep clean and hygienic with minimal effort, and frankly I think foreskin looks weird.
Circumsized man here, I really could give less of a fuck what other people do with their and their children's junk. It's really not that big of a deal, circumcision has all the effect of an appendectomy.
have you ever talked to a "circumcised" woman?
most of them also find nothing wrong with it and want to do it to their kids.
Lol
excluding the very worst kinds of fgm of course, not even the victims can deny that they're awful.
You can't honestly be comparing removing the clit to the removal of the foreskin.
The clit is more or less a mini dickhead. Foreskin not so much.
Not all forms of female circumcision are as extreme as the worst examples. Some are pretty analogous - but we still ban all of them, because having cosmetic surgery on babies is fucking weird.
They didn't say anything about removal of the clit, they said "circumcised." Meaning a woman who's gotten the clitoral hood removed.
They're right, too:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FGM#Supportfromwomen
ffs, where in the developed world is that widely practised?
Exactly, its not widespread thankfully.
Who said it was?
There's a good reason for why we're now seeing more progressive societies ban circumcision, both male and female types.
hahaha look at you
hahaha it's true. except i don't think it's that funny
the humor isn't where you think it is
I know, the funny part is in the mutilated genitals. That's it right?
Some of the same crowd that thinks that using the wrong pronoun is a great injustice finds circumcision hilarious.