/r/MensRights calmly discusses circumcision: "You are just disgusting. You are on the wrong side of history, the wrong side of morality and virtue, the wrong side of medical science and ethics, and you will be on the wrong side with your sons should they somehow grow up to be intelligent." (np.reddit.com)
SubredditDrama
68 ups - 0 downs = 68 votes
238 comments submitted at 00:08:58 on Nov 19, 2014 by pedoarchist
Nothing gets people more riled up than talking about other people's foreskin.
I don't see what the big deal is. I'm circumcised, it makes maintaining my unit much easier
The replies to your comment are actually exactly like the replies I get when I mentioned I'm circumcised.
"We're not trying to shame you BUT YOU WERE ABUSED AND MUTILATED AGAINST YOUR WILL!!"
It's so weird. No one wants to admit that we can be perfectly happy and normal with our circumcised penises. And other than weird theoretical arguments about "consent" no one can really convince me that I've in any way shape or form been harmed because of my circumcision.
These fuckers are crazy man
The argument is not for you, youre water under the bridge, a non issue. Its not about YOUR penis. Its not about YOUR penis, you insecure little man. Its about stopping an unnecessary, archaic practice.
But that's the entire point. I've literally experienced it and have absolutely no problem with it. If you can't even convince someone who's experienced it that there's any sort of hardship involved then you can't really call it an archaic and unnecessary practice now can you? You can't identify any harm.
And you're so melodramatic about the whole thing. The arguments are rife with scary buzzwords and look at how vehemently you're trying to shut me up. It's really funny from the outside looking in.
No what's funny is how vehemently you defend cutting up baby dicks. Leave children's genitals alone, why is this difficult?
Hahahaha
Cutting up baby dicks? Children's genitals? Are you trying to be a caricature of yourself?
I'm not the one dicing up baby penises. You tell me.
Dicing up baby penises...I think you're trying to be a caricature.
U tell me klondickbar
>I've literally experienced it and have absolutely no problem with it.
Have you experienced a botched circumcision?
No. And statistically, neither has any other infant. The rate of complications in the U.S. is 0.2% The most common complications being the easily manageable bleeding and infection.
The rates of complication actually rise as the patient gets older.
This is according to the CDC itself. You're not gonna convince me that you're on some grand crusade for justice.
>You're just some SJW!
Nice kneejerk response.
Anyways, that's 0.2 too many percentage points for a cosmetic surgery on unconsenting individuals (which is my main issue, not the botches).
I never called you an SJW...I consider SJW a compliment. I would never call you that.
Just because something is an individual doesn't immediately mean we have to get consent. Animals are individuals and we don't ask for consent to eat them. Children are individuals but their parents don't ask for consent. And if 0.2% is the only percentage you can worry about I just can't take you seriously. Also, just FYI, seriously complications drops to indistinguishable from 0% in the U.S. You are championing a cause that doesn't even have a problem.
>Just because something is an individual doesn't immediately mean we have to get consent.
Does bodily autonomy mean anything to you? This is a cosmetic surgery, of course consent (which infants can't give) should be required. I don't understand why you're defending a pointless practice that does harm to a number of people, and more importantly, undermines the concept of bodily autonomy.
More Comments - Click Here
The big deal is you didn't have a choice. We're not against adults choosing to get a circumcision, we're against forcing it on unconsenting babies.
Does it matter. I have no psychological nor physical scars. Leave my penis alone
Nobody should shame you for being circumcised, but circumcision is a mainly cosmetic procedure that can have complications. There's no reason it should be given to a baby.
> Leave my penis alone
Ironic comment of the day.
"Well, it never hurt me" is not a great argument.
Some people do have psychological and physical scars. As a result, let's just leave adults choose to do it if they want it.
Well my brothers are circumcised I don't think they have PTSD flashbacks nor any physical problems. Its not a big deal yet /r/MR acts like the foreskin protection agency or something
I'm circumcised. I'm not mentally scarred but I'm certainly not happy about it. It's a cosmetic procedure that should not be performed on infants who cannot consent. Period.
Same here. I still enjoy sex and masturbation and all that jazz, so it's not like I really "care" about being circumcised on a day-to-day basis, but if I had to choose I'd probably prefer retaining my foreskin. If I have a son one day, I won't have him circumcised.
Again, your personal anecdotes about your brothers are meaningless. Some people love their circumcision, some people hate it. The solution: let people choose if they want it or not.
Do you know what anecdotal evidence is?
Tell that to the parents whos kid dies after shock from getting cut. "But hey guys, i mean... it was fine for me and my family... so, its not a big deal."
I'm circumcised too. Luckily I have two girls, no boys, so I have yet to have to make a decision. Either way, I can't ignore research. Pros are cosmetic, cons are horrific. Are the cons rare? Sure. But when your'e talking about your own kid, its a different story.
/r/ForeskinProtectionAgency should be a thing
Except adults have to go through incredible amounts of pain to do it. Babies forget. I wish is been circumcised.
Luckily, this is the 21st century. It is not the 19th century. Even cardiac surgery is performed. But there is a new technology which makes one sleep or removes the feeling of pain. They did not exist when your time period which is the 19th century. There are anesthetic which makes one sleep and analgesic which removes the feeling of pain. Either can be used for circumcision.
Well for babies it cannot be used for various reasons, they just do it without anaesthesia for the most part... And from my understanding there is still issues with pain after an adult circumcision for a while
If a consenting adult wouldn't choose to get something done so it has to be forced on unconsenting babies... it's probably not a good thing.
Also, the arguments for circumcision must be pretty weak if they can't convince an adult to get it done. When you have no good arguments, the only thing to do is force it on babies.
This. If it was so beneficial we would have adults doing it by choice. For the most part, that's not true.
Gee, I wonder if the pain means something...
Getting cavities filled hurts too, but I'm pretty sure that's a beneficial procedure.
I didn't realize snipping the foreskin saves the rest of the penis.
Wasn't arguing that, simply pointing out that your pain argument was pretty pointless.
More Comments - Click Here
This is an argument made by many victims of female circumcision (though obviously they don't say penis).
Nobody is messing with your penis.
So should women be able to get fgmed when they won't remember it as well? I think these people take it way too far but following your logic....
That is a wildly different topic, and not in the same league as circumcision.
There are actually some lighter version of fmg that are quite comparable. The extreme end? For sure, but to follow the logic, then the lighter forms of fmg should be allowed
You know, most kinds don't really have a say in a lot of things, now do they?
I really don't want to start drama, but the argument is that issues regarding body autonomy are generally different.
I just wanted to be informative so I'll leave it at that.
EDIT: I've already gotten 2 responses that are basically similar so I'm just going to add this and drop it again so I don't get a ton more: Yes, parents make issues that override body autonomy in cases of medical decisions (and often in other decisions). People who are against circumcision are usually against the latter, and believe that in the case of the former you have an issue of weighing the benefits of the medical aid against the violation of body autonomy. In cases of vaccines, yeah it's fine - the child can't fend for itself against these diseases and ultimately it's a relatively harmless violation for massive benefits. So the argument comes down to how medically beneficial circumcision is and if that out weighs body autonomy.
Every single argument on this issue follows this route, so I am not interested in debating which side is right at this point. If people are interested in the evidence on both sides they can look at any circumcision drama post ever. No one has ever brought anything new to these arguments and I am not going to try.
But what about vaccines and stuff? Have you ever actually heard of a kid that wanted to get a shot?
I do not think that vaccines and stuff involve removing a normal healthy body part.
Oh no! I don't have a flabby piece of skin anymore! Someone call the police!
So let's cut ear lobes off babies too?
Funny you mention ears, because ears actually fit really well into my reasoning for why I'm okay with circumcision even if a parent is doing it largely for cultural or cosmetic reasons.
My sister was born with a cosmetic deformity on her ear, completely a cosmetic issue but it did look pretty fucked up. The doctors said that they could wait and she could get it fixed when she was an adult, or it could be done then and she'd grow up a normal looking kid and get the surgery over with before she'd remember it. It was fixed, and her ear looks good.
Kids don't have bodily autonomy. The argument that we should not allow parents to make the choice to alter their children's bodies in minor and safe ways that they believe are in their kid's best interest because we should respect their bodily autonomy is a total red herring. We make medical choices for them all the time.
More Comments - Click Here
Moles, tonsils, appendices, hair, finger/toe nails. I know I'm kind of grasping for straws but that doesn't negate the fact they have no say in it and doesn't make it any worse that they don't. Take this whole shirt thing for instance. Just because the guy landed a robot on a comet doesn't mean his shirt is any less terrible. So just because vaccines provide a benefit to children, that doesn't mean it's any less against their will.
People pierce babies ears all the time.
I just put my response in an edit so as to not continue this further, I personally honestly do not have the energy. If you want to talk over pm or something I'm down if you're just curious, but otherwise just look up there and that's my answer.
They're not. Parents make all of those decisions for them.
See edit! Thanks for the comment.
>unconsenting babies.
So are you also against vaccines? I get there's a huge difference between vaccines and circumcision, but everytime the topic comes up people always focus on the "you didn't get a choice" argument. So, you didn't get a choice in that. Even if you think they aren't comparable and vaccines are a scientific achievment that everyone should get, you still didn't get a choice. There are lots of things you didn't get a choice in for most of your young life.
I think generally the difference here is that they provide heard immunity while circumcisions do no such thing. Which is why I understand doing it to children in hiv prone areas
>I think generally the difference here is that they provide heard immunity while circumcisions do no such thing
Great, but according to the guy I replied to it's all about "the choice". I don't care if one is beneficial or not because he wasn't making that argument. He was making the argument that it's wrong because they didn't get a choice. And I was only pointing out that kids don't get a choice in lots of things.
Permanent body modifications with no benefit are wrong if there's no choice. Vaccines have a health benefit, circumcision is a useless cosmetic surgery.
It's not any more difficult to "maintain" unless you're astoundingly unhygenic.
Obese Americans struggle to reach their penis as it is, the foreskin is just another obstacle to overcome, i sympathize with them.
This thread has been linked to from elsewhere on reddit.
^If ^you ^follow ^any ^of ^the ^above ^links, ^respect ^the ^rules ^of ^reddit ^and ^don't ^vote ^or ^comment. ^Questions? ^Abuse? ^Message ^me ^here.
I mean, I'm not circumcised but I don't find my penis to be all that complicated. I wouldn't cut part of it off for simplicity.
Downvoted for being happy with his penis, good job defending those men's human rights MRA's!
It's okay to be happy with your penis. The problem comes from not seeing "what the big deal is" when other people are absolutely unhappy about theirs.
God, I wish circumcision wasn't an MRA issue. Those nutjobs are bringing all their vitriolic bullshit to what should be a reasoned debate.
To be fair, as someone who's been against circumcision of infants since before I knew MR was a thing, people have always been shitheads about this topic. Idk what it is, maybe the fact that you're talking about penises cuts out a higher than normal amount of not bizarre people?
It's not just MRAs, but yeah they're not helping. On the other hand, I can understand being very angry about feeling like your body was altered without your consent.
Having a reasoned debate about this is, as you say, important, but so difficult.
It's interesting that this works out so that anti-foreskin/surgery activists are able to advance their position by pretending to be MRAs arguing against genital cutting.
As someone with a genuine interest in advancing children's right to body autonomy, it's frustrating to see idiots argue against intactivism by making such bad arguments for it.
^(Incidentally I remember your username from AMR where you were arguing against my intactivist points last year. Did you change your mind?)
I don't believe I ever argued against intactivist points. Do you have any examples? If so, I expressed myself poorly. I've been opposed to circumcision for longer than I've been on Reddit, or even on the Internet. (I am an old.)
I did used to be harsher on intactivists themselves, but someone challenged me to consider that to be tone policing--and since I would be pretty pissed if my parents had cut off parts of my body for non-essential reasons, I've tried taking that to heart.
But I will not be gentle on anti-circumcision campaigns that are also anti-Semitic.
Do you mean that you consider religious genital surgery to be ethical?
I don't like racist attitudes either, but I can also say that in the past few years that I have been reading about intactivism, I have yet to see any racist intactivism. I think I would have noticed too because my brother is Jewish.
Stop misrepresenting my argument. I'm starting to remember how dishonest you were.
I'm sorry, I really only meant to ask you what you meant by calling intactivism antisemitic.
How am I misrepresenting your argument?
* I did find our last exchange. You implied that I was only trying to make people feel horrible by speaking against involuntary non-therapeutic genital surgery and said that I was "berating" people "or making them feel like monsters". You suggested that scientific research cannot be used to defend male children's body autonomy, and you completely ignored my explanation of why I care about this issue (my boyfriend has scar neuromas, one of the worst complications from FGM on his penis). TBF I made my points very poorly then, but you were as rude as you could be without being more than just slightly confrontational.
I did learn one useful thing from you, people tend to get away with being extremely rude when they avoid being confrontational.
More Comments - Click Here
> God, I wish circumcision wasn't an MRA issue. Those nutjobs are bringing all their vitriolic bullshit to what should be a reasoned debate.
That's funny, because a criticism I often hear about the MRM is it is 'nothing but anti-feminism'. But when they get involved in an actual male rights issue (the right of infant boys to genital integrity), you're not happy. Let's be honest, they can't win in your view, can they?
Broken clocks are right twice a day. Just because they're not wrong about everything doesn't mean they're not wrong (or repulsive).
it's not like the two things happen in a vacuum. if you want to push anti-circumcision, the absolute last people you want pushing with you are the anti-feminist weirdos that have done no activism other than reporting a bunch of false rapes that one time. having them associated makes you look bad. you probably don't want the klan helping out at your bake sale either, even if it's for a really good cause.
I wonder how many people became unhappy with it after finding the MRM vs. how many were intrinsically unhappy with it.