Someone suggests that men would be uncomfortable if women wore shirts showing huge crotch buldges. (reddit.com)
SubredditDrama
38 ups - 0 downs = 38 votes
177 comments submitted at 18:47:16 on Nov 13, 2014 by CozyHeartPenguin
Someone suggests that men would be uncomfortable if women wore shirts showing huge crotch buldges. (reddit.com)
SubredditDrama
38 ups - 0 downs = 38 votes
177 comments submitted at 18:47:16 on Nov 13, 2014 by CozyHeartPenguin
>I don't see how being the wife of the guy's tattoo artist gives her any merit in this situation.
Context, yo. It might be tacky shirt, especially for the ESA, but that's not really what people are attacking here.
People here are tripping over themselves to point out that this shirt is all that is wrong with STEM, and the fact that it's keeping women out of the field, and the artist who created it was a woman, who seems to be damned fucking proud of her work.
Also it's just another example of prudish Americans (and their shameless U.S.-centrism) trying to exert their puritanical views of sex and sexuality on Europeans. Are they even aware that places outside the U.S. might be a-ok with nudity and sex? Like even (gasp) on broadcast television and beaches?!
I'm 99% sure that if this shirt featured explosions and violence, this story would have never happened.
The fact that the shirt was created by a woman does not it was appropriate to wear in that setting.
Why? Appropriate for what? These aren't politicians here, they're scientists and engineers, who gives a fuck what they wear?
Have you ever worked in academia?
I've worked in a research lab before and I would have been fired or at least severely reprimanded if I showed up in something like that. He's not just representing himself here and what he wears is important as stuffy as that sounds.
I've spent a lot of time around medical professionals growing up and I have seen a lot of surgeons wear some outrageous clothes but nothing like this.
>Yeah, I've worked in a research lab before and I would have been fired if I showed up in something like that.
You know how I know you've never worked in a research lab? Corporate America, absolutely, but academia?
Some people in my research lab came to work in Pajamas practically, He Man shirts (zomg bulging muscle power fantasies), comic book shirts, etc.
That's the difference between research and Corporate (I've done both), even engineers have to give a shit about image in Corporate.
I mean I'm not gonna send you my resume but OK.
Also, this discussion would not be happening if he had worn any of the things you just listed. Those aren't the same.
>Also, this discussion would not be happening if he had worn any of the things you just listed
That's exactly my point. Why is it a story now?
Wearing a He-Man shirt just says you're a fan of He-Man, it's a particular fandom of an accepted genre. It's not professional either but it's not unacceptable. His shirt is just sexy women with big boobs associated with nothing but being a fan of women with big boobs wearing lewd clothing. Which is fine on a personal level, most straight guys are, but you can't express that at work.
This is maybe a flawed argument but if a woman dressed for work (even in a lab) like one of the women on his shirt, it would obviously be unprofessional of her for very similar reasons as to why he can't wear a shirt with pictures of women like that on it.
>Wearing a He-Man shirt just says you're a fan of He-Man, it's a particular fandom of an accepted genre
And wearing a shirt made by a friend, with good intentions shows that you're being a good friend. Maybe a miscalculation, but he's still a fucking scientist who had already proven himself, because the mission was a success.
Why the necessity on outward appearances and putting "your best foot foward", when this mission was already a runaway success?
>His shirt is just sexy women with big boobs associated with nothing but being a fan of women with big boobs wearing lewd clothing.
Puritanical American.
You didn't really present any arguments in this response but alright. No one cares if he's being a good friend, that's completely irrelevant. He could just as easily be a good friend by wearing a latex suit and ball-gag she made for him but that'd obviously be crossing the line. And it's obvious that there is a line somewhere and while some things--like this shirt--fall closer to the line than others, the distinction is still there.
The necessity on outward appearances is because appearances are important. No one is saying the mission wasn't a success, I don't think you understand the argument.
Because my soggy knees. And feelings.
Come on dude, HR (and the high-powered extreme extravert gotta-look-good-and-sanitary image) doesn't exist in Research like it does in Corporate.
It absolutely does. My boss was incredibly picky and professional, he prided himself on it.
It was a medical research lab and obviously the decorum is different in medicine but that's also kind of the point. I've met plenty of eccentric and highly accomplished surgeons but when they have to represent their research and/or achievements to the public, they put their best foot forward and would not be seen in a shirt like this. The fact that this is considered acceptable because he's a "science-bro" and works in a field where "anything goes" or whatever is exactly what people are complaining about here and I don't think their arguments are without merit.
>It was a medical research lab and obviously the decorum is different in medicine but that's also kind of the point.
So basically, what you're saying the culture is in medicine in the U.S. (ostensibly based on your writing) is the way the Science research culture ought to be in Europe?
>and I don't think their arguments are without merit.
I'd like you to expound on why.
I'm not saying how anything ought to be but even in the U.S., I think there's a difference between the professionalism expected in medicine as compared to research science.
The kind of shirt he's wearing is the kind of shirt I'd wear to make my friends laugh while hanging out. I wouldn't wear that shirt on a date because a girl would probably find it off-putting of me. There is a noticeably gender-gap in engineering and I think his wearing a "dudes-hanging-out" shirt to work reflects that.
There's a culture in this kind of science that this is just the way things have always been done and that's just how it is. But the fact is that at least in the US, some 80% of engineers are still men and maybe the culture isn't as inviting as it may. I don't think it's because of any implicit bias on the part of men or anything but I don't think it's a coincidence that in fields like medicine or law (where the gender distribution is a little more even) this kind of thing does not fly.
I'm not saying there needs to be a mandate where the gender distribution has to be even or anything either.
I work at a university. I wouldn't get fired for wearing that shirt but people would definitely give me disapproving looks. Its not that its tacky. Its that the shirt is covered in buxom women wearing little clothing.
There is already enough pressure against women going into science and tech and we don't need stuff like this. Like it or not, this guy is an ambassador for the field when he goes on television and this will be just more example of the field being hostile to women.
>Its that the shirt is covered in buxom women wearing little clothing.
For the billionth time, do you not realize that this isn't really a head-turner in Europe?
Nobody gives a shit there. I have yet to hear about this from any of my former colleagues in Europe who were following this, woman or man (and they're about even in numbers in my social group), thought they were completely and utterly thrilled at the mission's success.
>There is already enough pressure against women going into science and tech and we don't need stuff like this. Like it or not, this guy is an ambassador for the field when he goes on television and this will be just more example of the field being hostile to women.
What you're not understanding is that Continental European women don't see this as threatening. Sexuality is completely and utterly different there, and if I didn't believe it before after living there for four years, this thread just cements that notion.
Americans are horrifically puritanical.
When did this become a Europe/US thing? Is science and tech in Europe super equitable or something? I'd be really interested in seeing some stats behind your claim that women in Europe, as a rule, aren't affected by this sort of thing. Because right now I'm sitting next to my roommate, who is a woman who grew up in France and works in microbiology, and she thinks the shirt wasn't a good choice.
I work in a STEM field, have been in male dominated fields for 12 years, and I would have been uncomfortable around a dude in that shirt in a professional setting. Want to to wear it at a bar? Awesome. Wearing it to work means you're terrible at picking up on social queues which is an essential part of being on a team and getting shit done in tech. The guys that are defending this are the ones that think it's cool to ask the women on the team if they are on the same cycle.
You seem to have a lack of empathy of how much it sucks to be a non-white guy in STEM fields.
>I work in a STEM field, have been in male dominated fields for 12 years, and I would have been uncomfortable around a dude in that shirt in a professional setting.
And when you confronted him about it (because it's causing you that much discomfort, right?), and you found out his intent, to innocently support his woman friend who made it, what would you do? What then, when you figured out it was good natured intent (maybe mindless, but still good), and not a ploy to denigrate women in the field?
>Wearing it to work means you're terrible at picking up on social queues which is an essential part of being on a team and getting shit done in tech.
Getting shit done in Tech? Did we watch the same stream? I could have sworn I saw a success (a fucking INCREDIBLE success), watching the mission.
This guy must be some kind of social God to get past all the awkwardness and discomfort he's caused over the years. The mission succeeded despite him, right?
>You seem to have a lack of empathy of how much it sucks to be a non-white guy in STEM fields.
Wow, just wow, I'm half black, half Latino. In Mathematics.
You know what I think? I think because you immediately painted me as someone white (because surely I have no idea right?), that you lack empathy, or sense. You're just like those Neoconservative Repbulican hobknobs I argue against, where I'm immediately cast as "Liberal scum", or generally the "opposition" without bothering to figure me out.
>And when you confronted him about it (because it's causing you that much discomfort, right?), and you found out his intent, to innocently support his woman friend who made it, what would you do? What then, when you figured out it was good natured intent (maybe mindless, but still good), and not a ploy to denigrate women in the field?
Every time I've seen a women say something like this she ends up leaving the company. Guys like that don't take feedback well.
>Getting shit done in Tech? Did we watch the same stream? I could have sworn I saw a success (a fucking INCREDIBLE success), watching the mission.
You seriously think this isn't a unique situation. That shirt is not appropriate and the average douchebag that would wear something like this is a nightmare to work with.
>Wow, just wow, I'm half black, half Latino. In Mathematics. Sure you are. I'll be sure to believe anything that comes from a throwaway account that's only used to argue that women in tech fields need to shut up and stop 'complaining'.
>Every time I've seen a women say something like this she ends up leaving the company.
I'm sorry that was the environment at your company, but you can't really extend that to European academia.
>Guys like that don't take feedback well.
Are you saying the guy in question, who wore this tacky shirt, wouldn't take feedback well? Are you seriously making that type of conjecture about his personality?
The fuck?
>You seriously think this isn't a unique situation. That shirt is not appropriate and the average douchebag that would wear something like this is a nightmare to work with.
You're projecting a lot of (emotional) baggage onto this guy. He wore the shirt for a friend, and while it might have been a bit gauche, it was for support.
Incredibly, though, you're already making him out to be a complete asshole without even knowing him? Seriously?
>Wow, just wow, I'm half black, half Latino. In Mathematics.
Well, imagine this guy wore a shirt with pictures of stereotyped van-art Aztec warriors, maybe Kunta Kinte, the Mack, Speedy Gonzalez, and a random "cholo gangster" stereotype.
Wouldn't that feel kind of weird to see that, to you? How do you think women who don't look like those women who work in this guy's lab feel?
>Well, imagine this guy wore a shirt with pictures of stereotyped van-art Aztec warriors, maybe Kunta Kinte, the Mack, Speedy Gonzalez, and a random "cholo gangster" stereotype.
God, you know, I did melt down one time that guy brought in his Machete shir... oh wait no I didn't.
And as for Speedy Gonzales, you do realize that us Latinos actually like the guy/mouse? You know we actually wanted to keep the litle guy from being censored?
>Wouldn't that feel kind of weird to see that, to you?
No.
>How do you think women who don't look like those women who work in this guy's lab feel?
No idea, but unless you're European and understand their views on sexuality, you are probably way off the mark with your suspicions. As a guy who did grad school in Italy, and worked with people from France, Germany, Denmark, and Switzerland, you can trust me on this one.
If I would hazard a guess, they probably don't give a shit. Europeans are much better at handling sexuality of all forms, fantasy, reality, you name it, they can separate it from their own self image.
(Some) Americans are really fucking unhealthy in this respect.
>God, you know, I did melt down one time that guy brought in his Machete shir
Well, Machete's an empowerment fantasy, not an objectification fantasy, so it's not a great comparison.
It's not the worst shirt in the world, and I don't think that not wearing it to work represents "censorship" as much as it does "empathy and good taste."
The point is he's wearing a shirt loaded with sexual objectification stereotypes. I'm trying to ask how it would feel if you had a co-worker who wore a shirt full of racial stereotypes, but apparently that's not going to do it.
Do you genuinely not see how working with somebody who wore this shirt to work might make somebody uncomfortable?
What if it was a shirt depicting some moderately violent event, like from a Tarantino film? I mean, are you going to the mat for shitty shirts, or your insistence that nothing could offend you, or what here?
>Well, Machete's an empowerment fantasy, not an objectification fantasy, so it's not a great comparison.
No, what the fuck? To who, white people who believe that's what latinos believe is a power fantasy? It's a gruff, stereotypically acting hyper-macho (with Latino culture being harmfully macho), killer.
It's a reduction of "Gruff Mexican (Chinga tu Madre guey) Killer Criminal", created that way on purpose by Rodriguez, and if I were social-justice inclined, I'd say it was really fucking harmful.
But I'm not, and I enjoyed the shit out of that movie.
>The point is he's wearing a shirt loaded with sexual objectification stereotypes.
To Americans. I lived in Europe for four years, and nobody in my old colleagues group (men/women) have any mention of this. It's only Americans.
>Do you genuinely not see how working with somebody who wore this shirt to work might make somebody uncomfortable?
In America, absolutely. But these people in question aren't fucking American. Their sensibilities with sex are completely fucking foreign to most here in SRD.
>What if it was a shirt depicting some moderately violent event, like from a Tarantino film? I mean, are you going to the mat for shitty shirts, or your insistence that nothing could offend you, or what here?
That's the fucking kicker, in America, nobody would give a shit about a violent shirt. If this guy was wearing a shirt with heads cut off, they'd say "lol tasteless", but they wouldn't make the assertion that he was killing STEM.
Oh look, the drama's leaking...