Trans user posts to /r/RandomActsOfBlowJob, gets angry over the assigned gender marker. Drama ensues, with other users fanning the flames. (np.reddit.com)
SubredditDrama
70 ups - 0 downs = 70 votes
186 comments submitted at 05:18:24 on Oct 20, 2014 by Throwawayprivilege
She has a right to call herself female, the people she gives blowjobs to have a right to know she's transgender. The T tag is appropriate.
Edit:
>Furthermore, "transgendered" is offensive. You don't put an -ed at the end.
Give me a break here. That's such a ridiculous distinction to make. I've never once heard transgendered used in a derogatory way in fact I've seen people on reddit use it to describe themselves.
Abandon all hope, ye who decide to keep reading this thread.
/r/SubredditDramaDrama
i mean, we dont say "colored" anymore for good reason. it's not something thats imposed on you
See my comment here: http://www.reddit.com/r/SubredditDrama/comments/2jrcwa/transuserpoststorrandomactsofblowjob_gets/clefh4x
Yeah but we also don't say "Oh he's color." This isn't being angry about the word, it's being angry about a suffix.
I've heard a lot of people take offense to the term transgendered. Is it really that hard to say transgender? It's the more polite thing to do.
Also, no you don't have a "right" to know anything besides STDs (which are contagious). You have no right to their history or identity. If you personally have an issue with people who are trans, you can ask or request that.
You don't have a "right" to personal information without even asking unless it's something like a contagious disease.
Putting tags on trans people is kind of mean.
Straight men are not generally attracted to penises. If I go out to meet/hopefully hook up with a girl, I'm looking for someone with a vagina. If you're okay with a dick, then that's great but most straight men would not be. Jesus, I would assume it'd be better for transgender people to be upfront about it because I imagine it would be embarrassing and upsetting to go home with someone and then have them shocked and reject you because they assumed you were a more "typical" female.
If you personally don't want to have sex with a trans person, then you can ask for that. Don't expect the entire world to cater to your personal sexual preferences. Don't expect trans people to label themselves in a way that's othering or uncomfortable because of your personal taste. Maybe people don't want to tell every hook up their whole life story?
Also, trans people can have reassignment surgery so their genitals do match.
Why can't you just ask if you have a personal preference?
Most men like women who aren't fat but I don't see any tags for fat women.
First and foremost - why is it that transgendered is offensive? I read the rest of this thread and I can't find a good explanation as to why.
Second, what if someone is asked about being trans and lies about it and then they proceed to have sex - do you think this is a bad thing? And if so, would you classify this as rape by deception?
Heres a couple of things about the label
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/492922
http://www.glaad.org/reference/transgender
http://www.ihollaback.org/blog/2011/11/21/transgender-not-transgendered/
http://t-central.blogspot.com/2010/07/psa-transgender-or-transgendered.html?m=1
You might not agree with it yourself (even a few trans people don't) but it's important to recognize that many people are uncomfortable or offended by it.
Yes, it is bad if someone is asked and lies about their identity.
But the point is, if it's something you personally care about, you can ask yourself rather than have all trans people change the way they tag or identify themselves online to suit your personal preference.
Eh, why does the person's gender matter if they just want to hook up to perform a bj? Anyone with a mouth can perform one, and there isn't much difference.
Because the sexual orientation of the person receiving the blow job matters? Are you actually serious with this post?
Didn't you know? You can totally fuck a guy in the ass and it's so not gay as long as your balls don't touch.
Trans women are not "guys" though. They are women. A man can have sex with a woman who is cis or a woman who is trans without it being ""gay"".
Trans-women and women are not the exact same thing though. It would be a nice world to live in, but that's not how it works.
Yes. They are. Some women are trans and some women are cis. They are both two distinct types of women.
Trans women fall under the category of women.
Robins and Blue Jays are also both birds, but they're not the same. If they were the same, we wouldn't be distinguishing between them right now.
Transwomen are women though. You don't have to be a gay man or a straight woman to be attracted to transwomen.
Transwomen are biological males who identify as women.
This is distinct from biological women who identify as women.
Yeah but that's not what gender is. That's what "biological sex" is.
Some people have a preference for cis people, but don't act like that's part of their "sexual orientation". Trans women are women and there is nothing gay about a man being attracted to a beautiful trans woman.
You really think a man has to be gay to be attracted to her?
If she has a penis, then absolutely.
No, genitals do not define gender. You are thinking of biological sex.
Having a preference for cis people is a preference, not an orientation.
Gender is a social concept encompassing both biology and identity. There are many, many categories we could assign to gender.
It is reasonable and normal that a person could be attracted to transwomen (biological men identifying as women) only. It is reasonable and normal that a person could be attracted to women (biological women identifying as women) only.
To say that a man has to be "gay" to be attracted to a transwomen is trivializing the debate - I'm saying that there are men who are attracted to transwomen and women, and men who are attracted to women only. One is not "gayer" than the other, but their preferences are distinct, and neither should be denigrated.
I'm not saying it's bad to have a personal preference for cis people, but don't act like it's abnormal or gay to be attracted to a beautiful man or woman who happens to be trans.
It's a preference, not a sexual orientation as was stated above. That's all I'm saying.
I'm not saying that it's wrong to have a preference.
No one is saying it's abnormal, they're saying that it is normal to have a preference for women (in this case biological women identifying as women), but not transwomen.
To say that "women" is a holistic gender that encompasses only personal identification is deliberately disingenuous.
The point I was making was that prefering cis people is a preference not an orientation as it was previously labeled.
It's not disingenuous to call trans women "women". That's what they are. Both cis and transwomen are women.
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Cis men are often not attracted to anyone with a penis, whether that person is a man or a woman. Approaching someone under the pretense that you do not have a penis if that is something you know 99% of cis men are not attracted to and would reject if they had known is disingenuous and wrong.
The point is, prefering cis people is a preference not an orientation.
Maybe don't make the assumption that every person you meet is cis? Maybe trans people don't assume that every person will prefer cis people?
If it's something you care about, just ask. Why force everyone to label themselves before even talking to them?
What if you turn up at the spot and find that the woman is actually a 250 pounder with a beard and biker jacket? Still a woman, but you'd forgive people for not being down for that.
Do they have tags for fat people on that subreddit as well? No they don't. So why should they tag trans people?
If you care about weight, you do what everyone else does and ask.
Why should they tag trans people using language that offends them?
That's...not the point I was making.
What was your point then?
[deleted]
The BJ from a stranger is supposed to be the random part, not the strangers gender.
Eh. If I'd opened a request I'd take from anyone. I'll try everything once.
Suppose I can see why others wouldn't like it.
This is called preference and that's why someone needs to disclose if they are transgender.
If they have a preference, they can make that request or simply ask. There is no reason to label all trans people because some people have preferences.
If I have a preference for blonde hair, should I ask all people to nonblondes to label themselves of the website?
You're seriously equating hair color with a mental disorder? Holy fuck.
They're both personal preferences.
The stranger's gender is clear without the T tag. A trans woman's gender is a woman.
You know exactly what he meant. He used "gender" but meant "sex".
It's fine to correct him. I take no issue with that. But to act like you don't get what he meant is being obtuse and not contributing to the discussion.
I did understand what he meant. I was correcting him just as you said.
Beggars can't be choosers.
This dismissive behavior to trans people's opinions that you're displaying right now? That's derogatory.
I'm not dismissing her opinion, I'm disagreeing with it.
You can disagree with the fact that people don't like to be labeled by slurs, but it doesn't make you any less of an asshat.
You don't have the right to tell trans people what they shouldn't or should be offended by. Not calling people "transgendered" is pretty much trans 101. Trans women being women is a fact of life.
Sure I can't but I am allowed to think it's stupid to be offended by it.
I don't get how adding "ed" makes it offensive.
I think it falls into the category of "Things that are incorrect enough that you should avoid saying, but not so much so that it means you're a bad person if you say them." It's like if someone says "the blacks" or "the gays" in an otherwise non-offensive context.
Thanks. That makes a bit of sense.
That definite article.
You are a bad person if you continue to say them once you're corrected on it.
I'm not sure if I'd go as far as "a bad person," but I agree one should make an effort not to use words that offend people. That said, when someone springs a "Ha! You used the wrong word, ergo you're a bigot" moment, as in this discussion, I think that's really uncool. (Setting aside the question of whether that person was in fact a bigot, as I'm too tired to think about that.)
> Furthermore, "transgendered" is offensive. You don't put an -ed at the end. Secondly, don't call me a male.
Which isn't what happened at all in the thread. She pointed out the problems to the mod and the mod refused to apologize. It takes two words to apologize, one if you're feeling that lazy.
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Do I get to pick a set of words that I can arbitrarily assign offensiveness to, too?
I think I might have strong feelings about your use of "corrected." I would like you to stop using it, and instead use "correct." The word "corrected" is offensive to anyone who has ever spent time in a corrective facility, so, yeah.
If you don't stop using that word, you are a bad person.
I imagine it's similar to calling someone colored, as opposed to person of color.
The difference being that calling people colored has a very long history of being used in a derogatory way. Saying someone is colored is really just a statement of fact the same as the term POC, it's the history that makes it offensive.
Transgendered doesn't, at least not that I'm aware of and certainly not on the level that tranny or shemale do.
Offended by tranny makes sense.
We were using transgendered in my feminist social work club like 2 years ago, I can't imagine much has changed since then.
Thanks for the reply. I get what you're saying :)
It just doesn't make sense at all. When people call anybody "transgendered", it usually shows a big lack of understanding of trans people. "Transgender" is an adjective. If you're putting "-ed" at the end of an adjective, something is most likely wrong.
Who the hell would want people going around using adjectives as verbs? Satan maybe.
Someone is two-legged
Someone is mentally challenged
Someone is pissed
People in general are gendered
The -ed just seems natural and not technically incorrect to me. I don't say it anymore out of respect, but I've never really understood the offense.
> Someone is two-legged
> Someone is mentally challenged
> Someone is pissed
It wasn't until the next line that I realized you were giving examples of naturally non-offensive "-ed" endings for words used to describe people. Beforehand I thought you were describing the poster above you and I thought, "What a strange but hilarious way to insult someone."
...I'm probably stoned enough for bed now then.
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But transgender is an adjective. It's like saying someone is mentallied challenged or that someone is a gayed person.
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I don't think the people who say "transgendered" are trying to be offensive, they just don't know better (because, to be honest, if someone wanted to be offensive to trans* people, "transgendered" would be the last derogatory word they would think of). I don't see why someone needs to be offended by a small miscommunication that could be literally corrected within seconds.
And if someone has a lack of understanding of trans* people, don't get offended, just teach them. Getting offended by someone's lack of understanding does absolutely nothing positive, but taking the time to teach them gives them a better understanding.
Just my opinion.
Apparently this is not some error that can be corrected in a few seconds. Look at all of those people above clinging to that phoneme for dear life.
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> I don't see why someone needs to be offended by a small miscommunication that could be literally corrected within seconds.
The entire conversation in that thread was the trans woman correcting the mod and getting treated like complete shit in return. It's funny how people want to defend people from being labeled bigots rather than reading the actual conversation and seeing what really happened.
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Son I'm offend.
you are hitlered
?
Son, I am disappoint
you are dumbed
>Not calling people "transgendered" is pretty much trans 101.
Really? I've been saying "transgendered" for as long as I can remember, and this is the first I've heard somebody claim its offensive.
>Trans women being women is a fact of life.
Nobody here is saying otherwise.
Yeah, I have trans* friends who use 'transgendered'. I guess some trans*-folks are offended by it while some use it?
This is one of the reasons why I stay clear away from identity politics. Adding a single phoneme to a term can produce a fountain of outrage based upon whatever arbitrary jargon is in vogue for whatever ideology the person you're speaking to happens to identify with. It's like walking through a minefield.
Count me in as a trans person who uses "transgendered". This is a pretty recent objection amongst trans people, at least I hadn't encountered it until recently. And I still don't get it. Trans people can be pretty ridiculous at times.
Eh, it's bot the transpeople who are ridiculous so much as the people who get all of their self-worth from identity politics and the i-want-to-get-offended associated subculture. Lots of cis people in that group as well.
Not everybody who wishes to be referred to a certain way is just looking to be outraged. Some people would prefer to be referred to certain ways
>Trans women being women is a fact of life.
Not in the real world. Not saying that they shouldn't be/aren't, but for the majority of the general population there is a distinction between trans women and born women. Stating your wishful thinking as a fact is not helping anyone.
Damnit, I had a paragraphs long reply typed out but I pressed a wrong button. Let me preface it with the fact that I agree with you, so you don't get the wrong impression.
What I was going to say (I'll summarize, because I don't feel like typing it all out again) was this:
I'm from a pretty liberal country as far as these issues are concerned. There is a hospital in the city I live in that specializes in sex operations, for instance.
I know a lot of MD's because my GF is one. They all think transgenderism (or however I should conjugate this to not be offensive) is a disorder, not unlike body dysmorphic disorder. Not a societal thing that we all just have to learn to live with after years and years of dark ages and suppression. Their reasoning is based on the fact that medically, if something occurs in ~10% of the population (controlled for environmental factors obviously), it's considered normal variance. Homosexuality normally falls in this group (and isn't a medical issue anyway), but it depends a bit on the studies you believe about what percentage of society they represent. The number of transgender people is so small that it can't reasonably be distinguished from something like BDD. It's just that with certain people, the easiest way to ease their suffering is to give them what they want, i.e. a sex change. There might be other ways to fix it, but we have no idea how.
I can imagine trans people don't appreciate the above sentiment, but then again, people with BDD generally don't want to hear that their hatred of their left arm isn't normal either.
So what your saying is that they see it as similar to being born deaf?
Though obviously being trans is not debilitating in the same way regarding perception, there is a portion of deaf people who fight to keep deaf culture alive, who choose to remain deaf.
I think it's an interesting perspective.
I think you could make that comparison, yes.
Coo.
Ugh. So much misinformation.
Being transgender is not a medical condition, per, well, all of the reputable medical organizations out there. What is a medical condition is gender dysphoria.
People with body dysmorphic disorder don't get better when you try to fix the problem that they see. People with gender dysphoria do get better when you treat them with HRT and sometimes surgery.
The whole "you have to be 10% of the population or you're not real" idea? I don't even want to poke that with a stick. Please don't equate transgenderism with body dysmorphia, however.
>The whole "you have to be 10% of the population or you're not real" idea?
Wow I've never seen such gross misrepresentation.
You must be new to the internet ;)
I've seen some pretty bad ones before, but that was just ridiculous.
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>The whole "you have to be 10% of the population or you're not real" idea? I don't even want to poke that with a stick.
That's not what I'm saying though. Defining what is and what isn't a disorder is hard. I just mentioned that in medical circles (at least around here) one of the criteria is that if a sizable portion of the population has a characteristic and it doesn't cause them undue grief, it generally isn't considered a disorder.
>Please don't equate transgenderism with body dysmorphia, however.
And that is also not something I did. I drew a parallel between two things that allow for parallels to be drawn. I am emphatically not saying BDD is the same thing as transgenderism.
I'm not very well versed in the vocabulary of this issue, so excuse me if I called people transgender when I should have been calling them gender dysphoric. I'm talking about the subsection of people that feel they were born in a body of the wrong sex.
All I wanted to do here is give an alternate view on this issue, shared by medical professionals, some of whose work actually involves working on sex changes. This is to contrast the idea that there is no such thing as a gender, or that everything exists on a spectrum and the issue is solely with the cold, harsh, unnaccepting society at large.
As far as I'm concerned, you can dress yourself however you want, identify yourself however you want and fuck whoever or whatever you want. You can even try to fuck me and I wouldn't be offended in the least. Whatever floats your collective boats.
But you're not going to convince me that if someone thinks they are a toad, and should have surgery to get their body more in line with their felt identity, there's no argument to be made that that person might have something wrong with them. And I hope medical professionals take the time to think about the issues and decide if giving everybody that feels a certain way whatever they want might not be the best course of action.
Once again Srsters try to take away my rights, such is life in 1930s germany.
People have the right to be offended by stupid, inane bullshit.
People don't have the right to expect others to think they are justified in that offence, nor can they expect anybody to care or do anything differently.
Your jimmies are rustled right now, and guess what? That's ok. The only person who has to care that your jimmies are rustled is you.
Just an advice: you are going to get more friendly conversations if you talk reasonablly, rather than by dousing others in acid.
What was unreasonable? The post was clearly dismissive of a trans person's opinions on what they personally are offended by. Dismissing someone's opinions is a pretty derogatory thing.
Again, like he/she said, its all about being upfront about something. A transgender can call themselves with whatever labels they wish and no one here said its bad. Just say you are a mtf beforehand.
If you want others to respect your transsexuality, then respect other people's preferences.
If you read carefully she actually did say she was trans in the post title. The mods deleted it and then assigned her a flair that said "transgendered".
While I agree that the tag she used was a bit confusing, I think the right thing to do would be to explain that it was confusing and ask her to change it, not delete it and arbitrarily assign her a new one. I can see why she might find that offensive.
It's not about the tag being confusing to the reader it's about the tag causing the post to be flaired improperly. The original post had Mt[F4M] but all the CSS sees is [F4M].
You can't change a post title after it's submitted so your suggestion wouldn't work. The mod toke appropriate action in deleting the post, explaining the deletion, and asking the poster to resubmit. The mods didn't arbitrarily assign her flair and they definitely didn't assign her "transgendered" flair, you're just making shit up here. I don't know what more you expect from her.
And open yourself to being assaulted? Well that just sounds so appealing.
I don't expect anyone to respect the preference to be transphobic.
Being a straight male and not wanting a BJ from a trans woman is transphobic? How exactly does admitting you're trans on the internet open yourself up to being assaulted?
No, it's not. But disrespecting everyone's identity so they label themselves in a way that suits your personal sexual preferences is very disrespectful.
If you don't want a blow job from a trans person, you can request that yourself.
If I'm making the request you're right I will request what I want. She posting an ad and offering herself so it is her responsibility to disclose, not mine to ask.
Would you go in to gonewild and complain about the gender tagging as well?
There's no reasonable expectation that a person representing themselves as a woman would have a penis. Yes it obviously happens, I'm not denying that, but understand what I mean by "reasonable expectation". If I see 100 people wearing makeup and a dress, I'm guessing at least 95 of them have vaginas. That's the expectation.
There is a reasonable expectation that a person has preferences for the biological sex and gender of a person with whom they engage in sexual activities. If you don't conform to expectations, and especially when you know full well that you're not conforming, the burden is on you to inform of that fact. I don't care if it's "transphobic" to point out that being trans isn't the norm. That's the truth.
Why? Why should trans people have to out themselves to everybody without them even asking first? If you don't want to have sex with a trans person, you can request that yourself.
If I have a personal preference for blondes, should I design a whole website where all non blondes label themselves of the website?
LOL
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Yes! I finally get to see the drama before finding it on SRDD!
I too like having second helpings of popcorn :)