/r/Paydaytheheist. Is Payday 2 turning into a "generic steam game" with hats, zombies and... women? How does a female heister ruin the game? Find out now! (np.reddit.com)
SubredditDrama
173 ups - 0 downs = 173 votes
171 comments submitted at 13:10:25 on Oct 19, 2014 by Udontlikecake
Not even feminists know what feminism is anymore. I'm sure you have some pretty vision of how feminism is for the equality of everybody but lots of heinous shit has been said and done in the name of feminism. It's a meaningless label without eighteen qualifiers to help it out.
"I'm a feminist. No, not the crazy kind. I mean, no, Valerie Solanas was a psychopath. And of course I don't hate trans women! And I'd never pull fire alarms to ruin men's rights meetings, or claim that all heterosexual sex is an act of violence against women, or espouse the belief that men are literally genetically disposed to rape women... I mean, sure, lots of people say and do those things and call themselves feminists, but they aren't real feminists--I am!"
Dude, some pretty heinous things have been done in the name of Christianity, and I wouldn't say you need eighteen qualifiers to justify being a Christian. There are assholes in every creed.
Christianity has been on a downward slope of heinous acts for a thousand years. It doesn't make sense to assume a Christian has burned innocent women or killed civilians in a crusade because that shit doesn't happen anymore.
All this stupid shit being done for "feminism" is active and ongoing.
>that shit doesn't happen anymore.
There have been witch burning in Christian areas of Africa and Papua New Guinea.
Then I guess what would in fact make it obvious if you were not talking to such a Christian is societal context.
If I was talking to a Christian in an area of the world that burned witches, I'd sure as fuck expect some qualification or I would get the hell out of there.
Dude, you might want to just let this go
What, and rob /r/SubredditDramaDrama of its popcorn?!
Aye aye, skipper.
I'm not talking about the Crusades or witch burning, I mean things like the WBC and "corrective therapy" for LGBT people. Those things still happen, why shouldn't we accuse every Christian of doing them?
I really don't think so many bad things, outside of snarky YouTube videos and crazy Tumblr posts, can be blamed on feminism. If crazy stuff happens in the name of feminism, I'd say it's mostly because of the prevalence of feminism. If you went and asked a bunch of women if they were feminists, you'd be surprised at how many say yes. Like most groups, the larger something gets, the more crazies it attracts.
That's a good point. I suppose you've convinced me that any sufficiently large movement becomes more or less useless as a personal identifier because of how varied the movement itself can be.
Its only "useless" insofar as politically motivated idiots will intentionally misinterpret the label... Which, if anything, is a helpful utility, as it allows you to instantly identify those idiots.
>All this stupid shit being done for "feminism" is active and ongoing.
Wait, people have been burned on crosses and killed on crusades for Feminism? And this has occurred enough times for it to be a part of the movement and not just the work of a sociopath? Clearly I know the wrong sort of feminists.
Feminism was responsible for the fall of Rome didn't you know?
The sad thing is I've actually seen that being argued.
I never implied that. Sucks I had to actually say this, but I guess shitty Internet people gonna be shitty.
Don't bother replying with how you somehow read that into what I said--I won't read it.
"I'm a redditor. No, not the egotistical kind. I mean, no some users are. And of course I don't hate racial minorities. I'd never frequent a sub like WhiteRights or claim anecdotes that fly in the face of actual research are proof or espouse the belief that women are just sluts and genetically predisposed to showing their tits...I mean, sure lots of people say and do those things and call themselves redditors, but those aren't real redditors -- I am!"
Congrats, you've just perfectly illustrated why I would never call myself a "redditor."
"I'm a human. No, not the egotistical kind. I mean, no some humans are. And of course I don't commit genocide." so forth and so forth. If you don't see why your statement was pointless then you need to go back to school to learn some basic critical thinking.
The issue with this argument is it's not a No True Scotsman when misandrists and other unpleasant people directly contradict the accepted definition of feminism with their actions.
It's like saying Christianity is meaningless because an Islamic fundamentalist calls himself Christian. He's not if he's pursuing other ideologies with a label that doesn't apply stapled on.
The people who you say "directly contradict the accepted definition of feminism" insist constantly that their definition is the accepted definition, and on the off chance that they concede that it is not, it is only to preface that they intend to change the accepted definition as soon as possible.
You need to realize that your "accepted" definition is holding less and less water every single day. There is a whole ideology of people, a significant number of people, who claim that they are the real feminists and you are not.
>insist constantly
They can insist all they like. Just like the people who insist evolution is fake, the frequency or energy of their protestations don't change reality.
I think you're taking /r/tumblrinaction a bit seriously. A vast majority of feminists don't think like they do.
The internet just makes it easier for the crazy people to get together. They're not any larger in scope than they ever were, and the TERFs are losing ground near constantly.
>You need to realize that your "accepted" definition is holding less and less water every day.
Firstly, I don't need to realize anything. Tone it down, m8. This isn't a super serious debate.
Secondly, put quotes around it all you want, that's the definition. If you refuse to accept that, it seems like you want to believe all feminists are crazy. And if that's the case, I can't help you.
Thirdly, I'd like to see any sort of proof to this claim. You think radfems are recruiting at an increasingly faster rate? Seems more like this anti-feminism nonsense is what's spreading, and the bigotry that follows with it.
Literally all a definition is is what people want it to be--if they insist enough, it will become the definition. That's how language works. "Feminism" isn't some science term that has a hard connection with reality. It's a sociological term used to describe an ideology, and it (and therefore the movement itself) means whatever its participants want it to mean.
And the only reason I say you "need" to realize it is that you need to realize it if you want a more complete understanding of the movements you identify yourself by; I realize you don't literally have to do anything.
Also, calling me a bigot is duplicitous as fuck and you know it.
Again, if the definition is what people want it to be, then the definition is simply "women should be treated as equally as men". Since that's the majority.
I don't know what else to say. You got it in your head that the minority is the majority and if you refuse to change your mind then there's little else to say.
Even if we entertain the notion that most third wave feminists are misandrist special snowflakes, that's still a ridiculously Americacentric view of the world.
Should we stop feminism because some teenagers on tumblr said dumb things? When rape is legal in several countries, women have wide spread abuse and hugely sexist institutions in third world countries?
When everything you want to accomplish can be done under less confrontational and divisive banners, why cling so tightly to the corpse of feminism? Why does the word feminism mean so much to you?
Mostly because I'm awful tired of having this ridiculous argument over semantics and calling it something different.
There's no need to change the name because of a vocal minority. Most people who say so are just pushing a men's rights agenda. And not the actual men's rights stuff, like custody and homelessness, the anti-feminist stuff that gets us nowhere.
Feminism isn't really all that confrontational or divisive. You'd notice that if you looked for it, for some reason, you don't. Since most of Reddit is comfortably middle class and fairly isolated from racism and sexism they only see the bad ones.
It's the crowd that keeps dredging up bad examples of feminism to say "WHY CAN'T IT BE EGALTARIANISM" that continues to make things divisive far beyond what these radical groups actually do. We get it, you want a pedantically better name. We can either continue this argument, or spend time accomplishing things and educating people.
We have a great example of that on Reddit. SRSS is way worse than SRS ever was and they're the ones who brigade more, push agendas on the defaults, and ban people from subreddits far more often than SRS.
>corpse of feminism
Really. That's a bit hyperbolic.
I'm quite done with this. Similar to you, I'm tired of having this argument over and over. Keep on supporting a movement that unabashedly causes suffering and demonizes half of the world--and keep pretending it doesn't do either of those things. Reality will eventually convince you better than I ever could.
>and demonizes half the world
lol
>Reality will eventually convince you better than I.
I hope you're good at cooking 'cause you're going to find yourself eating your own words.
Keep tearing down ideologies out of misplaced angst and contrarianism. You're doing the world a great service.
>then the definition is simply "women should be treated as equally as men"
I would say that's a bad definition, there are plenty of areas that feminism goes into where it sucks for everyone, so it's not about getting people treated equally and more about sorting out a shitty situation.
Again, you're cherry picking and straight up refusing to address any of my other points you don't have a rebuttal for. I'm done with this discussion, thanks for your time.
I'm not the same person haha, and I'm not disagreeing with any of your other points. I just disagree with the definition.
Oh, jeez. Sorry! That's my bad.
Let me reply in earnest, then.
What areas of feminism do you think sucks for everyone? If you can point a few out I'd like the opportunity to either address why you may be misinformed, or if I'm incorrect, I'd like to be able to work on fixing that however I can.
My biggest issue with changing the definition is that it's difficult enough to start any ideology from scratch. Having to push against institutionalized feminists groups and convince the majority of social justice people to re-label themselves is ridiculous.
We have better things to be doing with our time and money.
If a feminist group were to spend its time on that instead of fixing actual flaws in feminist thinking as well as men's issues, people would complain that all this group did is campaign for semantics.
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>Not even feminists know what feminism is anymore.
Ah, the classic "feminists don't understand their own movement as well as I do!" schtick. I'm sure you do, buddy.
You're probably going to be unpopular with that post, but it really is something that happens to any significantly-sized group. "No, I'm not the kind of Muslim who shouts things and tries to blow up buildings." "I'm not one of the 'get back in the kitchen instead of playing vidya' gamers." "Yes, I'm from the South, but no, I'm not a member of the Klan nor do I particularly want to lynch anyone."
I think it's significantly-sized groups that aren't the majority in their area. A Muslin in Pakistan isn't going to have to clarify their views on terrorism, and a Southerner in the South isn't going to have to defend their views on racism. That said, it's probably more prominent among groups that scare people (Muslims).