"Cis is not a derogatory label. Why do people still think this?" /r/ainbow is in crisis mode over abuse in /r/LGBT moderation. Thank you JTT. (np.reddit.com)
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85 ups - 41 downs = 44 votes
311 comments submitted at 08:54:01 on Jan 8, 2014 by david-me
>If anything we would say fuck cis people. And its an expression of frustration. Of course there's no real hate behind it.
But as soon as you call op a fag you're a hate-mongering bigot. Funny how that works.
It's such a fucking terrible excuse to be an asshole.
Women are all succubal greedy demons but I'm not a sexist. I'm just frustrated.
Almost as if people don't like being labelled by other people.
Trans is a label, straight is a label, man is a label, who the fuck cares? Cis is clearly not negative but people get mad when you use it in passing. There's always the dude who knows exactly what cis means asking "What does cis mean? Are you trying to say normal?"
>It means that some people hate cis people. Just because the word is sometimes used negetatively doesn't mean the entire word is a slur term.
Hm.
The equivalence you're implying doesn't really make sense, "fag" has way deeper roots as a slur than "cis." If anything it's more like if people were offended by the word "gay," because sometimes people say shit like "fuck gay people," "gays are disgusting" etc.
Of course, the person is nuts to say that saying "fuck x-group-of-people" is somehow ok and not hateful if your feels are frustrated. But lets not use it as an opportunity to excuse actual slurs.
I hate the whole "this word means more than this other word" argument. The n word is just as offensive to me as its Caucasian counterpart. That's because it's not the word itself that hurts but the intention behind it. When you use a word to demean an entire race for merely being that race, it's a shitty thing to do be it black, white, Asian, Mexican, whatever. Same with sex/gender saying "fuck an entire group of people just for being who they are" is nasty and mean no matter which side you're on.
>The n word is just as offensive to me as its Caucasian counterpart.
That is beyond idiotic.
> The n word is just as offensive to me as its Caucasian counterpart.
and what would that be
Cracker, honky.
the implication is that there isn't a true counterpart
I know they're not, I thought you were really asking.
>That is beyond idiotic.
that seems a bit harsh to me, no? if they had said:
>The n word is just as offensive as its Caucasian counterpart.
then i would gladly join you in having a laugh. but as it stands, the user was expressing their opinion. i don't know this person, and i can't speak for their experiences and background. if you disagree then comment on why, don't just attack them for it.
>if you disagree then comment on why, don't just attack them for it.
I think that the motive in being called "cracker" is hurtful, like if you were called an 'asshole' or something of the sort. People say mean words for the sake of being mean. I can understand that.
That said, the two terms in question are not even remotely close to being the same, but I think you're saying that too. I think it's best to not think of "cracker" as being some terrible term with a really horrible history like "the n-word", because they aren't the same. But when someone says something with the intention of hurting the 'feels' of someone else, I think that is shitty if it is unwarranted.
> but as it stands, the user was expressing their opinion.
And their opinion was idiotic. I'm not sure why you're having so much trouble understanding this. Just because something is your opinion doesn't mean it is magically criticism proof. You can have the opinion that gravity is a myth and we're all being pulled towards the center of the earth by invisible strings held by mole people but it's still moronic and you're still going to get laughed at by everyone and their grandmother.
it seems you didn't read all of my post:
> if you disagree then comment on why, don't just attack them for it.
what does bullying a commenter add to the discussion? i don't agree with their take either, but how exactly is that sort of behavior going to change hearts and minds? even your comment to me was at max condescension. you don't know me or anything about me. is it that much to ask to be decent to other people?
>is it that much to ask to be decent to other people?
Yes.
Also:
>i don't agree with their take either, but how exactly is that sort of behavior going to change hearts and minds?
It won't, but neither will a reasonable discussion. Some opinions are actually not worth debating, and these opinions are usually very obvious.
I got in to a small debate with an acquaintance wayyyyyy back. Back during the creepshots debacle.
She held up that the men who were doing this were monsters, and that they should have their cameras stolen, be publicly shamed, etc. Equated them to rapists or pedophiles. I disagreed.
I said that no, what they are doing is wrong, but publicly shaming someone for their actions isn't going to do anything besides compound the issue. My ultimate point was that treating people who behave against society's standards as monsters is only a topical solution, when what you need - for anything - is therapy and support groups. There's successful branches of anonymous pedophile support groups in Germany where they remain abstinent, and I think that's ultimately way more effective than going "fuck every person out there that I personally consider a predator!"
We had a decently long argument, but at the end neither of us could change our views. Mine is founded in my core belief that people have a great capacity for change and the ability to better themselves given the necessary help, and her belief is bound in the fact that...well I never found that out, but I guess vindictiveness.
At the end of the debate though, I knew arguing with her was going to be pointless because she wouldn't budge on the subject not because of the content of the arguments, but because the beliefs she holds make up a structure in her life that she is unwilling to change. Just as I'm unwilling to change my belief in humanity's adaptability, she's unable to change her belief in the fact that fuck that guy on the bus who was actually just trying to take a candid photo of his girlfriend because he's a photographer, and you just broke his $850 camera.
>I got in to a small debate with an acquaintance wayyyyyy back. /// At the end of the debate though, I knew arguing with her was going to be pointless because she wouldn't budge on the subject not because of the content of the arguments, but because the beliefs she holds make up a structure in her life that she is unwilling to change.
sure, some people aren't going to change. and of course it is not necessarily your responsibility to educate them or correct them. but to me, simply yelling at a person and calling them an idiot (or their opinions idiotic) isn't really adding anything.
i guess what i'm getting at is if you are going to engage you should make at least a rudimentary effort to talk with them. look at immortalsanchez's post. they provided a reasoning behind their view, basically stating that in their opinion intent trumps context or the history/usage of the word. i don't agree with that approach in this case, but i can understand the reasoning. it's the same as when i've heard people tell me that 'frig' or 'darn' are no better than the words they replace.
but seedypete didn't even address the reasoning. they just singled out the one line and called them an idiot. to me that isn't fair.
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>what does bullying a commenter add to the discussion?
The original comment had absolutely no value whatsoever, so calling him a moron for it was at least mildly entertaining.
>but how exactly is that sort of behavior going to change hearts and minds?
Someone stupid enough to think "cracker" is just as bad is not one polite correction away from seeing the light. I have zero interest in vainly trying to win over his heart and mind, I'd prefer to point, laugh, and call it a day. That's kind of the entire purpose of this sub.
>even your comment to me was at max condescension. you don't know me or anything about me.
Do you people just not understand that post histories are visible to others, or what? I'm baffled by this "you don't know me" routine you guys always do. You spend every waking moment in antisrs, srssucks, tia, or trolling people with wide-eyed feigned confusion about the existence of racism in gameofdolls. I know plenty about you, and absolutely none of it leads me to believe that you're one polite correction away from acknowledging the existence of racism either, so why bother?
> Someone stupid enough to think "cracker" is just as bad is not one polite correction away from seeing the light.
they didn't say it was just as bad. they said it was just as bad to them. you are free to disagree, but to me there is a distinction. i don't know their history, maybe they've had some tough experiences. if they said it was just as bad i would gladly disagree.
>You spend every waking moment in antisrs, srssucks, tia
every waking moment? i don't even think i have 20 comments in the past month. i think you have more than that in just this thread. it looks like you don't like some subs i have posted in and you are choosing to attack me for that instead of what i am saying.
>or trolling people with wide-eyed feigned confusion about the existence of racism in gameofdolls.
disagreeing with people is not trolling them, sorry. not everyone shares the same beliefs.
>I know plenty about you,
i have less than 75 comments in this accounts entire history. how exactly do you know so much about me? are you secretly a family member messing with me?
>none of it leads me to believe that you're one polite correction away from acknowledging the existence of racism either, so why bother?
where have i ever not acknowledged racism? i disagree with you so now i am suddenly a racist? good grief. i have twice stated that i don't agree with the other poster. my concern was that i didn't understand the bullying approach given their word choice.
somebody that thinks that "nigger" and "cracker" are equivalent can't be talked out of that with a reasonable discussion because they're not reasonable. you might as well just point and laugh.
It's called a "different opinion" learn to live with it instead of throwing insults at it. You wanna discuss it with me have at it, just wanna toss insults then I'm done engaging.
Not all opinions are worth discussing. Nor are all people worth engaging with.
That's what I'm learning with these knee-jerk reactions to me basically saying "all racism sucks, no matter what color you are"
That isn't what you're saying though. When you say that you see words like 'cracker' as being equivalent to the n-word, you're displaying a monumental lack of understanding of the sheer scale to which black people are discriminated against in comparison to white people. They're not equivalent, they're not even comparable.
I'm saying the comparison means nothing to me in this context. That's what you fucking people are failing to comprehend. I'm in no way remotely taking that comparison into consideration. It's the intention of dismissing a whole race based only on their race. It's terrible no matter what race it is. But so many people are instantly jumping on my ass like I'm some goddamn racist and telling me what I'm saying and what I mean and what my feelings should be on the matter.
It's like it's some competition. It's the whole "oppression Olympics" thing again. Like it's totally okay to hate white people in the year 2014 because of some horrible shit that happened before this generation had any control over what happened. I don't give a fuck about what happened to your ancestors, It's not okay to hate any race based on their race. Period. I don't give a shit who's had it worse. I'm Native American if you really want to get into some competition bullshit. But that means jack shit in this particular situation. Just so nobody can tell me what I'm saying anymore let me summarize my thoughts here one last time before I stop replying to you people completely.
Hating an entire race/gender/sexual orientation for any reason whatsoever is a shitty thing to do and makes you a terrible person, regardless of what color/gender/sexual orientation you are. Hating white people can't be excused by "frustration". Just like nothing excuses hating any other mass group of people.
Now if anyone after this replies to any point other than what was right there in bold, you're replying to the wrong shit. Now, I'm finished replying.
It's not that you're saying all racism sucks.
It's that your saying all racism is equally bad.
It's not. Read a book.
> It's not. Read a book.
Up there with "google it" and "not my job to educate you [shitlord]" this is one of my favorite stock responses to identify people who aren't able to debate.
It's just so belligerent and condescending and completely devoid of any sort of a rational thought or argument.
You're wrong, google a book store in your area so you can buy a book to figure out way. Gah! It's not my job to explain my opinion to you!
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Dont tell me what the fuck i'm saying. I'm the fucking one saying it.
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Your opinion is beyond idiotic. I thought we just covered this?
lol
I can't get enough of this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TG4f9zR5yzY
That's one of my favorite bits of his. "Nobody goes from #1 to #2!"
> The n word is just as offensive to me as its Caucasian counterpart
no no no no no no no
>The n word is just as offensive to me as its Caucasion counterpart
Please tell me more about how I'm supposed to feel, white person.
im a black person.
What would your thoughts be on a white guy telling a black guy that he shouldn't be offended by some racial slur directed at him?
Just out of curiosity.
are you seriously trying to equate "cracker" to "nigger" and expect a serious discussion?
I don't see why not.
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Sort of. They are both racial slurs that are offensive and bigoted.
You're trying to make the argument that since one is worse the other can't also be bad.
So for instance: If you only kill one guy that's not a crime since other people have killed dozens.
In reality (so outside of the SJ/tumblr world) both are bad.
Yes?
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I'm native american. It's not cool to be treated like some kind of clueless white person, is it?
"The n word is just as offensive to me as its Caucasion counterpart"
these are the words of a clueless white person who has no grasp of historical context
Read my other post shit head. Native American isn't white. Go fuck off with your assumptions
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Notice the word sometimes. As others have pointed out the word man is sometimes used in the same context as "cis". I've mainly seen the word used neutrally.
yeah it's almost like they're not equivalent or something
Hey now.
Rather you like it or not, some people out there in the world usually hear the word 'cis' before they get the crap beaten out of them. It's just as much of a slur as anything else.
^^^s/
if i had a nickle for every job i've been denied for not being trans
I don't imagine too many cis people have been dragged to their deaths by roving droves of trans people while being called cis though so I don't really think the history behind the words is comparable at all.
False equivalence. Fag and faggot are inherently offensive to gay people on their own. Cis alone is not offensive. Fuck cis people is certainly offensive (or can be, I guess. I'm not particularly offended by it).
Tldr you and the person you're responding to are both wrong.
Saying "fuck X" is inherently offensive to anyone belonging to group X.
OP is pointing out that, according to them, it's fine to say something inherently offensive to one group of people, but not to an other.
"Fuck X" is obviously offensive to people of group X.
Merely saying that people of group X are, in fact, of group X isn't.
There's the difference. Implying that cisgender people are somehow inferior or that cisgender on its own has a negative connotation (or any connotation, really; it just means "not trans") is not okay, but simply referring to cisgender people is not inherently offensive. Obviously the word has zero purpose outside of discussions about gender identity; you're not going to go around referring to people as "cis people" just because they're cis any more than you'd say "hey, you, trans person!" to a transgender person. But the word is not offensive.
But what if, every single time you've heard that word, which by definition includes you in the group it denotes, it's been used in either a statement of blanket hatred or a gross generalization? Eventually, the word starts feeling like the context itself.
I'm cis, whatever, but I've always considered myself an ally. I'm not uncomfortable with trans/queer people. So when a group of which I am (without any conscious decision) a member is accused of possessing characteristic patterns of thinking and behavior that I find absolutely abhorrent and repugnant, it hurts. And it hurts when I feel that I have to defend myself against accusations, implicit and explicit, just because I don't enjoy cock or experience any discomfort/dichotomy between my self about my bodily equipment.
I guess what I'm saying is that my experience has made it a slur in my life. As a white straight cis guy, I'd hate to tell someone to check his/her privilege, but... It's still othering, and it's not cool.
From another of my posts on this thread:
>I would like to point out that those people are 100%, no wiggle-room-whatsoever, objectively wrong
If you don't participate in LGBT/gender discussions, unfortunately the only time you're likely to hear the words "cis" or "cisgender" are when the absolute fucking morons of Tumblr and what-have-you lash out at cisgender people in their blind, stupid, faux-oppressed rage.
You shouldn't have to defend yourself from those people any more than you should feel you have to defend yourself from the KKK or Westboro Baptist Church. They're outright fucking wrong and you can laugh off their backwards opinions.
I know that doesn't mean it won't suck to hear people claim cisgender people are shitty for whatever reasons, but know that they are in the wrong, not you, and there are more reasonable LGBT people who use the word in its intended way than there are loudmouthed "cis scum" screaming morons. Vocal minority, and all that.
> But what if, every single time you've heard that word, which by definition includes you in the group it denotes, it's been used in either a statement of blanket hatred or a gross generalization?
that means you should start reading things that aren't tumblrinaction
Well, when I have the time to devote, I sure will.
reading is the best habit after breathing
I write for a living and have two children. Gender studies isn't exactly at the top of my reading list. But I appreciate the sentiment.
>But what if, every single time you've heard that word, which by definition includes you in the group it denotes, it's been used in either a statement of blanket hatred or a gross generalization?
Well I mean if the only thing you know about the word comes from hateful people, I can understand thinking that. But that doesn't make you correct about it either.
So why are you saying that in response to a comment about someone complaining about the term "fuck cis"? The guy you replied to wasn't saying that the term "cis" is offensive on its own. You're arguing against a point the guy never made.
Well, I replied to you, so I dunno what you mean by "the guy I replied to".
I'm arguing against the point made by the quote in /u/failearlyfail_soft's post, which they took to mean as "it's okay to say fuck cis people." Which it isn't.
At the same time, I'm arguing against the common misconception that "cis(gender)" is inherently offensive.
AKA, "I'm allowed to spew my vile hatred at you because reasons"
> Fag and faggot are inherently offensive to gay people on their own.
Really now? I'm not offended by them. Words have the power you give them. If you're offended, it's your fault.
surely you aren't serious
Saying something is inherently offensive should mean that it is offensive to any and all who hear it. It is not. It is subjectively offensive, just like every other damn thing.
Well yeah they aren't offensive to everyone who hears them, but that's completely different from "Words have the power you give them. If you're offended it's your fault". Specific words being used throughout history and still to this day to discriminate, reject, dehumanize and isolate a specific group of people, who also have/still do face systematic discrimination, as well as having those words thrown at them while being beaten, bullied, sometimes even killed, are what gives the words power. If someone has faced that, it's not their own fault for not liking those words, especially if they've been beaten or bullied while having them thrown at them.
I'm gay/bi (don't know yet tbh) and not personally offended by faggot or other homophobic slurs, but still dislike the harm they do. Like there's a difference between using them jokingly with friends who you all know are ok with it, and just using it with anyone or in public, especially considering how -despite some people using it as a generic insult, often the word is still used directly in association with homosexuality, or in regards to effeminate men.
[deleted]
I'd hazard a guess that username has less to do with coffee and more to do with a certain simian nemesis…
Gosh, that's such a weird double standard. It's almost like one group is the norm and consists of the vast majority of human beings on the face of the earth, and the other is a tiny and discriminated against minority. I can't even begin to imagine why slurs against one are taken more seriously than the other! You are so smart for finding this completely baffling discrepancy.
hey get out of here with your bigotry, cis people are killed every day for not being trans!
Too true, we are SO discriminated against! Just the other day I was walking down the street being a heterosexual cisgendered white male in America, which is dangerous as SHIT by the way, when a pack of terrifying black transgender lesbians beat me half to death and dragged me behind a pickup truck.
It happens all the time, that's why these slurs are so hurtful! We straight white men have it so rough already, it is just TERRIBLE that now we also have to deal with hurtful words from minorities. That's why "cracker" is exactly as bad as the n-word. The only real racism left in America is against us.
funny this got downvoted, as the other day a comment here exaggerating and making fun of how often people say trans people get attacked; "a trans person is murdered in cold blood every second!" or something similar is what was said, did fairly well.
It's a david-me thread about how crazy those silly social justice warriors are, it's pretty much nothing but MensRights and TiA posters in here right now anyway. They're going to downvote anything that isn't "LOL QUEERS."
Of course they'll forget all about this the next time there's some MensRights drama and they all start screaming about how we're secretly controlled by SRS again because people are downvoting misogynists and that's the only possible explanation for it.
Finally someone has the courage to come out (lol like the gays amirite) and tell it like it is.
exactly. it isn't the word "cis" that's hurtful, it's the implication of violence and hatred (that we so regularly face) behind it that makes it hurt.